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Trelow
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If the catechism is wrong then the gates of hell have prevailed and Jesus is a liar, so lets all worship the sun.
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
Yes, that’s right: unless a person joind the Catholic Church, no matter how good he thinks himself or appears to others, he cannot be saved.============================================HI CC.Something as important as our salvation would certainly be written in the Bible. Please show me where it says that one must join the Catholic Church to be saved, so that I may request membership into Gods Redemption plan , the Catholic Church.God Bless.
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anjel13
Guest
To reject something or refuse something, you first must have been offered something…Right?
How can anybody be held accountable for never having the chuch offered to them? If they have never been exposed or taught the truth how can they refuse it? They know nothing about it. You are contradicting yourself in your own statements.
I understand this line of belief when it comes to people who know that the Catholic Church is the way or even for those who have been given the opportunity to know the way yet still refuse to believe it and for the people who choose not to remain in it…But for people who don’t know or have even had the chance to know I don’t think that this is true.
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CatholicCrusade
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Unfortunately, not every seminary is exactly a bastion of orthodox Catholic teachings… especially nowadays. What your grandfather was taught (and what he told you) is not true. I am sure it is not out of malice or evil he told you the wrong thing. He probably simply is not informed about the true Catholic teaching.
St. Thomas Aquinas explains about those who do not know about the Church throughou no fault of their own. Let us examine.
First, a person who goes against natural law cannot be invincibly ignorant (ignorant through no fault of his own), since to break natural law is to contradict the conscience and the law that God writes in the heart of every human being.
St. Thomas proves that believe in ONE GOD is reachable through NATURAL LAW. Therefore, a person who lives in the wilderness without any contact with anyone, can understand, through merely reason, if he is living as he should be and in line with his conscience, that there is only ONE GOD. Therefore, all the pagans and indians were already not invincibly ignorant, since they did not follow natural law.
Moreover, St. Thomas explains, that those who are ignorant and it is truly not their fault, God will reveal the Catholic Church to them either naturally or supernaturally. He will either send them a missionary or someone to teach them the Catholic Faith, or He could use supernatural means, which St. Thomas said, God could send even an angel, if necessary, to instruct the person about the Catholic Church. We can conclude, then, if such a person was never taught of the Church of Christ either privately or publically and either supernaturally or naturally, that such a person was not living according to natural law and correctly.
For a clear teaching on invincible ignorance see (PRINTED BY THE HOLY SEE): oltyn.com/invig.htm
There are many stories about how God has reached people by supernatural means. For example, see catholicapologetics.0catch.com/muller.htm
Scroll down to Part III, § 8. How Almighty God leads to salvation those who are inculpably ignorant of the truths of salvation. (Notice that § 7 opf Part III is the same thing I linked to above)
Also, by the same holy Priest and theologian, see these “questions and answers on salvation”: oltyn.com/Muller-Slv.htm. Especially consider numbers 40 and 41 on inculpable ignorance: (see next post)
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CatholicCrusade
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- Which Protestants are not guilty of the sin of heresy, but commit other great sins?
- Will those heretics be saved, who are not guilty of the sin of heresy, and are faithful in living up to the dictates of their conscience?
If we sincerely wish not to make great mistakes in explaining the great revealed truth, “Out of the Church there is no salvation,” we must remember:
a) That there are four great truths2 of salvation, which everyone must know and believe in order to be saved;
b) That no one can go to Heaven unless he is in the state of sanctifying grace;
**c) **That, in order to receive sanctifying grace, the soul must be prepared for it by divine Faith, Hope, Charity, true sorrow for sin with the firm purpose of doing all that God requires the soul to believe and to do, in order to be saved;
d) That this preparation of the soul cannot be brought by inculpable ignorance. And if such ignorance cannot even dispose the soul for receiving the grace of justification, it can much less give this grace to the soul. Inculpable ignorance has never been a means of grace or salvation, not even for the inculpably ignorant people that live up to their conscience. But of this class of ignorant persons we say, with Saint Thomas Aquinas, that God in His mercy will lead these souls to the knowledge of the necessary truths of salvation, even send them an angel, if necessary, to instruct them, rather than let them perish without their fault. If they accept this grace, they will be saved as Catholics.
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betra2000
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I think that some people are just scared. I know that I have run into that a couple of times. As a matter of fact, I know a gentleman who is a preacher in a diffent religion who blamed the Catholic religion for his alcoholism and drug addiction. Can you believe that?
I see people coverting to other religions all the times. It is sad, but I keep an open heart and pray for these people all the time. That is all you can do. I pray so that the Lord can open their hearts and get rid of the fear that they have for the Catholic Religion.
I see people coverting to other religions all the times. It is sad, but I keep an open heart and pray for these people all the time. That is all you can do. I pray so that the Lord can open their hearts and get rid of the fear that they have for the Catholic Religion.
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CatholicCrusade
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Ha… how do you come to that conclusion?
The CCC is not an inflallible document. Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, but that doesn’t mean the Pope can’t be wrong if he is not speaking infallibly.
For example, read up about Pope John XXII on New Advent, if you want.
He taught heresy openly FROM THE PULPIT. Yet he is not an infallible teacher in every single word or writing. Such an error is not a condemnation of the Pope’s infallibility nor the Church’s indefectibility.
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CatholicCrusade
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CatholicCrusade:
See post numbers 27, 28, and 29 in this thread.Yes, that’s right: unless a person joind the Catholic Church, no matter how good he thinks himself or appears to others, he cannot be saved.============================================HI CC.Something as important as our salvation would certainly be written in the Bible. Please show me where it says that one must join the Catholic Church to be saved, so that I may request membership into Gods Redemption plan , the Catholic Church.
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CatholicCrusade
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Please see post numbers 43 and 44 on this thread. They explain about what would happen to someone who was truly invincibly ignorant of the Church. God would send him a way to be baptized and be a part of the Church, if he truly had never heard of the Church through no fault of his own. There are many supernatural instances referenced in the link I sent. We must also remember the missionaries sent to far off lands, which are natural means used by God to fulfill His plan.
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anjel13
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Well, Since my grandfather passed away 7 years ago he unfortunatly can’t be here to defend this position.
“especially nowadays”…He was in the seminary in the 1940’s so, the nowadays thing doesn’t work. What do you mean not every seminary is a bastion of orthodox teachings? He was studying to be a priest. If he went all the way through, he would’ve been a priest. Are you saying that our priests arn’t always taught orthodox Catholic teachings? What kind of education have you recieved on this matter? How is it so much better than what a priests education is? I’m sorry but I completly disagree with your stance on this. I think it is an attitude like this that pushes people away from the Catholic faith. I will pray for you. God Bless.
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SPOKENWORD
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Hi CC,BUT that doesnt answer my question to you.
God Bless
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tkdnick
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If everyone who is saved MUST be Catholic, then what about all the people who lived before the Catholic church? Are they all in Hell? Are people like Moses, Abraham, David, etc. in Hell because they weren’t Catholic?
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CatholicCrusade
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Oh–I know he wasn’t in seminary recently. I assumed he was in the 50s or around there. So, the 40s, that was about what I thought. I said: seminaries aren’t always the most orthodox, especially today. I did not mean: they are not the most orthodox today but I meant they are not the most orthodox, and today more than ever (but that does not mean they were good before). The Church in America has never been very strong. The first Bishop in the US, in fact, wanted to minimalize this doctrine, since so many protestants (and masons) founded the US. The same Bishop (Cardinal Carol) has been accused of freemasonry, and not without grounds.
“He was studying to be a priest. If he went all the way through, he would’ve been a priest. Are you saying that our priests arn’t always taught orthodox Catholic teachings?”
Yes, that’s what I’m saying… all you have to do is walk into any Mass and you can see how horrible and heretical most of the sermons are. That is not to say all are like that, but certainly very many are.
"What kind of education have you recieved on this matter?
I have read the three infallible teachings of the Church, which is all a person need do to see how heretical the idea that non-Catholics can be saved is. Moreover, I have read literally for hours upon hours upon hours about this, from both sides. I don’t see how you can say simply because your grandfather said it, that makes it true. If I were to say: if a Priest says something, then it must be true, then I would not believe one teaching of the Church, because it is obvious that just about every teaching of the Church is reject by one Priest… but even if I took the overall average, if I just went by what a Priest or seminarian told me instead of the infallible Church documents, then I would not believe in the Real Presence (half of Priests do not), I would believe in contraception (over 80% of Catholics do–and Priests as well nearly as many), etc., etc. Your mentality is very backward. What a Priest says cannot nullify an infallible statement.
“How is it so much better than what a priests education is?”
Because the Priests usually don’t even go over this doctrine hardly. Ask any seminarian, if you can even find one, since they are so few nowadays, what they have studied about Outside the Church no salvation: I guarantee it has been little to nothing.
“I’m sorry but I completly disagree with your stance on this. I think it is an attitude like this that pushes people away from the Catholic faith.”
By saying “I completely disagee”, you are saying: I disagree that the Church is infallible. You are rejecting a doctrine defined by the Church as infallible. And to try to excuse yourself, so to speak, you say: I disagree with YOU, as if what I am saying is merely my opinion and I have not just spent and hour quoting Pope, Saint, Council, the Holy Scripture, and three infallible Church teachings.
You have one seminarian telling you something… not even a Priest. Just because he was your grandfather does not make him infallible, God rest his soul. I speak not against him, as I said above. He was probably just misinformed by his teachers.
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CatholicCrusade
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That is a ridiculous challenge to the doctrine… that is like saying: I guess you don’t have to believe in Christ, since before He came no one explicitly could believe in Him. That is ridiculous. You can’t possibly be required to do something that has not happened. For example, your argument would be like saying: you don’t have to believe the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption or the infallibility of the Pope, etc. since those things were not defined until the last 150 years, so people before then didn’t believe it… of course no one could be baptized before Christ instituted the Sacrament.
He made the necessity of the Sacrament take effect on Pentecost day, which is when he empowered the Apostled by the Holy Ghost to speak to others in their native tongue in order to fulfill the command of Christ: teach ye all nations, baptizong them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in explaining the Council of Trent, say that the necessity for Baptism began Pentecost day. That makes sense, since this is when Christ empowered His Apostles to baptize all nations.
The Old Law prefigured the New. The New Law fulfills the Old. Therefore, when Christ instituted Baptism as the fulfillment of the prefigurement of it (circumcision), then Baptism became necessary from then forth. He did not bind those who had lived before He instituted the Sacrament. That would be completely illogical.
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CatholicCrusade
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It doesn’t?Hi CC,BUT that doesnt answer my question to you.
Christ and the Bible teach: you must follow the correct doctrine.
Therefore, only one Church could possibly be following the correct doctrine (since no 2 protestant religions believe exactly the same… or else they would never have split). Therefore, it is necessary now to decide which doctrine is correct.
We know from history the Catholic Church is the only one until 1000s with the eastern schismatics breaking off and then the protestants in the 1500s. Now, if the correct doctrine is necessary for Christ’s Church, and everyone up until at least 1000 who called himself Christian and was considered one, WAS A ROMAN CATHOLIC, then, if the Church is not the Church of Christ, where was the correct one? If correct doctrine is necessary, then the only doctrine that could be correct would be what the Apostles’ taught and what was believed by everyone up until 1000, or else there would have been no Church of Christ. So, we should look to what they believed and taught. Well, THEY WERE ALL CATHOLIC! So, the only logical conclusion is that the Catholic Church and She alone can be the correct Church.
Moreover, Christ says who His Church will be built upon: “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, it is bound in heaven…” (Mt. 16.18,19) Now, The Pope, St. Peter, and his successors, bound that one has to be Catholic to go to Heaven. That, therefore, is bound in Heaven.
It is quite a simple argument. Just think for a second:
Christ built His Church (c.f. Mt. 16) in AD 33.
The only Church around in AD 33 was the Catholic Church. (Others were invented 1000 or 1500 or more years later.)
It is impossible that any other Church except for the Catholic Church could have been what Christ founded.
Hence the very logical Cardinal Newman said: To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.
How true that is! All that is needed is a small knowledge of history (not even a deep knowledge is necessary) to come to the conclusion that the protestant religions are evil and from the devil and are not Christian.
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anjel13
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I never said that because “my grandfather said it it’s true”. and I certainly didn’t say he was infallable. Thanks for twisting around my words though.
If you’re such a great Catholic with so much knowlege, why don’t you become a priest. (I’m assuming you are a man…??)Obviously there’s so few good ones out there that someone with your expertise and faith is seriously needed.
If so many of the Masses are so “horrible and heretical” what’s the point of going to mass at all since nowadays those priests are so misled. If you decide to become a priest, let me know so that I can attend your church and make sure that I’m recieving the WHOLE truth. Since there’s so few good churches out there anymore.
No honey I don’t disagree with the churches stance on this, I disagree with YOUR interpretation of the churches stance on this. You keep saying that if people havn’t been exposed to the church that they will be supernaturally exposed to it. How do you know that ALL people have been. Unless you mean that they are supernaturally exposed to it after they die, maybe in purgatory…I can see that. But your acting like every single person in the world has a chance to know this…even the people who still run around naked and live in the jungle? And don’t forget about all the people who have been brainwashed since childhood about other beliefs? I just think you are taking things too literally. It’s just as bad when certain protestants take certain things in the bible to literally without looking at the WHOLE picture or concept. They just believe the one part of it and can’t see anything else.
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elgom
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I didn’t read all of the posts, there were too many, but I just wanted to say that “Yes there is no salvation outside of the Church”, yet we receive salvation in Baptism. Since the Church recognizes as valid most baptisms of Protestants, whether they know it or not they have been Baptized into the Church and belong to Christ. The rest, I believe is for God to say. I think we need to be careful with this type of topic that we don’t judge others and patiently and lovingly speak about the fullness of the Truth to these people with the respect they deserve as brothers and sisters in Christ.God Bless!
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SPOKENWORD
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Hi CC. The Church that Christ setup was the universal church[catholic]and every christian is a part of the body of Christ.Yes he set up that church leaving us with the apostles,prophets ,teachers, pastors,and evangelists.We are HIs church.Jesus said if you love me you will obey me.We are to obey the commandments that God set up. So if we love Christ and obey the commandments He will save us.Thats His promise. So if I can only do this by belonging to the RCC I have failed according to your belief system and am doomed for Hell. Pretty sad that I would risk my soul according to your belief.Like I said Christ will be the final judge on whether I enter in or not.
God Bless.
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Trelow
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THE DOCTRINAL VALUE OF THE TEXT
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of Catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion and a sure norm for teaching the faith. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the kingdom!
The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represents a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, and to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus’ disciples (cf. Lk 22:32), as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith.
Therefore, I ask the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Jn 8:32). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the Catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.
This catechism is not intended to replace the local catechisms duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Episcopal Conferences, especially if they have been approved by the Apostolic See. It is meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechisms, which must take into account various situations and cultures, while carefully preserving the unity of faith and fidelity to Catholic doctrine.
–From Fidei Depositum “Given on 11 October 1992, the thirtieth anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, in the fourteenth year of my Pontificate.”-- JOHN PAUL II, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY
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Trelow
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So we can just dismiss the CCC then?:
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