why do some people think Catholics don't know Jesus?

[estesbob]

Can you give us the referrence number in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church where it says that?

Or does the Catechism of the Catholic Church state quite the opposite in fact?

It’s quite frightening just how far out of kilter some catholics opinions are when compared to what the catholic church actually teaches.

You believe in the real presence? You are aware that this has been a core doctrine of the Church since Jesus founded it?

**1378 **Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. “The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.”

 

[Guyonthestreet]

You believe in the real presence? You are aware that this has been a core doctrine of the Church since Jesus founded it?

**1378 **Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. “The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.”

I absolutely do with all my heart and intellect believe in the Real Presence, and yes I am fully aware the Eucharist is at the heart of the Catholic Church since Jesus instituted it at the Last Supper.

But that wasn’t the question.

 

[estesbob]

I absolutely do with all my heart and intellect believe in the Real Presence, and yes I am fully aware the Eucharist is at the heart of the Catholic Church since Jesus instituted it at the Last Supper.

But that wasn’t the question.

So when protestants hand out crackers and juice are they not just gfoing thorugh the motions?

 

[estesbob]

When Evangelicals say someone “knows Jesus”, they do not mean typically that you know about Jesus, as you might after a good RC catechism, Bible Study class or the CA apologetics. I know about Barak Obama, but I don’t know him.

They also do not mean that you know Jesus in the sense of knowing a friend with whom you get together for coffee once a week (or, for bread and wine, to extend the analogy). I know a lot of friends but for the most part they do not substantially change my life.

No, when Evangelicals talk of “knowing Jesus”, they mean that you have had an encounter with Him and have subsequently entered a relationship with Him, based on prayer, Scripture study and participation in the life of the Church, that has so transformed your life that you will never be the same. Jesus is not just your friend; He is your source of life, your energy. He is making you by grace what he is by nature.

When you meet someone like that who “knows Jesus”, it is like meeting Jesus. You see the Fruits of the Spirit evident in their lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self control. They do not seem to sin; they don’t use bad language, drink excessively, make prideful comments or gossip. (They probably do not make rude comments on internet boards either). Most of all, they have a joy that is infectious and they can’t stop talking about Jesus.

I live in Spain and we are 99% Roman Catholic. Now, I have met a few Roman Catholics who “know Jesus” in this way that Evangelicals mean. Most are members of a movement such as the Charismatic Renewal, Opus Dei or the Kikos.
But given the RC population here, there are relatively few that I have met, unfortunately.

I have met a disproportionate number of Evangelicals who “know Jesus” in this way.

My anecdotal experience may not be typical, but it certainly makes me wonder why Roman Catholicism doesn’t work so well in practice to help us “know Jesus”.

So they have traded the opportuinty to hold Jesus in their hands and consume his body for an imaginary emotional relationship?

 

[happilycatholic]

So you believe that the Protestant version of communion is just as valid as the Catholic one?

I believe it is wrong to assume I know if a person is recieving a valid communion. Maybe you have some authority I don’t, IDK.

I as a catholic could not receive a valid sacrament in a church other than a catholic Church.

That is the extent of what I believe.

My response was an emoticon expressing the emotion, surprise. I was just surprised you said what you said.

 

[happilycatholic]

So when protestants hand out crackers and juice are they not just gfoing thorugh the motions?

I have a question,

If a person is eating crackers and drinking juice all the while feeling like they are one with Christ then all of a sudden they stop, what does this mean?

If the Holy Spirit wants to bless a person through crackers and juice until that person comes into full communion with the Church and you are here demeaning that, what does that mean?

There are ways of letting a person know that they may not have the fullness of the Eucharist the catholic Church has to offer them without simply telling them they are “going through the motions”. You have no idea what “motions” the Holy Spirit may be using at any given time.

I am tiring of catholics and non-catholics alike telling each other who is Christian and what is valid and what and who is not.

THIS IS THE REASON WHY SOME PEOPLE THINK CATHOLICS DON’T KNOW JESUS.

God Bless each and every one of us.

HC

 

[estesbob]

I believe it is wrong to assume I know if a person is recieving a valid communion. Maybe you have some authority I don’t, IDK.

I as a catholic could not receive a valid sacrament in a church other than a catholic Church.

That is the extent of what I believe.

My response was an emoticon expressing the emotion, surprise. I was just surprised you said what you said.

So you would not assume that the “communion” given at a Baptist Church was not valid? Sicne hey dont beleive tis the real thng why should you?

 

[Guyonthestreet]

So when protestants hand out crackers and juice are they not just gfoing thorugh the motions?

Your claim was that everyone apart from catholics, are just going through the motions.

Nowhere in the Catecism of the Catholic Church does it say this. What it does say is:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

The catholic church recognises the vaildity of the orthodox eucharist to the extent it can be received by catholics. Orthodoxy has apostolic succession.

So how do you arrive at the conculsion that all other churchs are simply going through the motions??

I’ll take the definitive statements of the Catholic Catechism over catholic opinion any day.

 

[estesbob]

I have a question,

If a person is eating crackers and drinking juice all the while feeling like they are one with Christ then all of a sudden they stop, what does this mean?

If the Holy Spirit wants to bless a person through crackers and juice until that person comes into full communion with the Church and you are here demeaning that, what does that mean?

There are ways of letting a person know that they may not have the fullness of the Eucharist the catholic Church has to offer them without simply telling them they are “going through the motions”. You have no idea what “motions” the Holy Spirit may be using at any given time.

I am tiring of catholics and non-catholics alike telling each other who is Christian and what is valid and what and who is not.

THIS IS THE REASON WHY SOME PEOPLE THINK CATHOLICS DON’T KNOW JESUS.

God Bless each and every one of us.

HC

The Truth often hurts. When rejecting the nonsnese that Catholics dont know Jesus i think it is necessary to be blunt.

 

[happilycatholic]

So you would not assume that the “communion” given at a Baptist Church was not valid? Sicne hey dont beleive tis the real thng why should you?

What I am saying is that you have no right on God’s green earth to define an individual’s relationship with God. No matter if that refers to communion, Baptism, marriage or anything else.

You are only obligated to say that you believe that the fullness of the Eucharist can only be found in the catholic Church. I think most Protestants would agree with that statement.

When you devalue a person’s faith to something like the statement you made, you make it sound worthless.

No act of faith is worthless. It may be imperfect, but by no means worthless.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

What I am saying is that you have no right on God’s green earth to define an individual’s relationship with God. No matter if that refers to communion, Baptism, marriage or anything else.

You are only obligated to say that you believe that the fullness of the Eucharist can only be found in the catholic Church. I think most Protestants would agree with that statement.

When you devalue a person’s faith to something like the statement you made, you make it sound worthless.

No act of faith is worthless. It may be imperfect, but by no means worthless.

Well said, and beautifully written.

 

[happilycatholic]

The Truth often hurts. When rejecting the nonsnese that Catholics dont know Jesus i think it is necessary to be blunt.

This is why we are called to be charitable, not blunt.

You might just lead someone away from Christ rather than lead them to the Church. I have always had that fear within me.

 

[happilycatholic]

Well said, and beautifully written.

Thank you, I pray the Holy Spirit is in the place because some of the things touted here as catholic are simply not even remotely catholic. bob has the right idea but the delivery is way off center. I’m certain he means well and he is very passionate about the Eucharist. That sometimes brings about an emotional response from us catholics.

I noticed the prayer in your signature. It is beautiful. I too went through a very painful conversion. I cherish it as you do. You will find your way, it is God’s will that we all do. I can say though, the Eucharist is very comforting for me. I am abstaining right now because I’m going through the annulment process. It is hard. It is like fasting in your soul.

Peace be in your heart and soul very soon.

HC

 

[estesbob]

What I am saying is that you have no right on God’s green earth to define an individual’s relationship with God. No matter if that refers to communion, Baptism, marriage or anything else.

You are only obligated to say that you believe that the fullness of the Eucharist can only be found in the catholic Church. I think most Protestants would agree with that statement.

When you devalue a person’s faith to something like the statement you made, you make it sound worthless.

No act of faith is worthless. It may be imperfect, but by no means worthless.

This is a discussion group. You dont get to define what rghts i have no more than i get to decide what rights you have.

When the Church makes its crystal clear that no other faith has the fulness of the truth are they likewise guilty of devaluing someones faith? Perhaps in your zeal to make everyone “like” you are leading people away from the One True Church?

 

[JesusforMadrid]

So they have traded the opportuinty to hold Jesus in their hands and
consume his body for an imaginary emotional relationship?

No. I know you want to wax lyrical about the Real Presence, but the OP is about “knowing Jesus”. The Roman Catholic Eucharist is worthless if it does not lead to sanctification. That is what “knowing Jesus” is about and unfortunately in my experience, too few RCs actually fit that description compared to the Evangelicals I have met. If, in practice, taking the Eucharist every week does not lead to Christlikeness, of what value is it?

 

[estesbob]

No. I know you want to wax lyrical about the Real Presence, but the OP is about “knowing Jesus”. The Roman Catholic Eucharist is worthless if it does not lead to sanctification. That is what “knowing Jesus” is about and unfortunately in my experience, too few RCs actually fit that description compared to the Evangelicals I have met. If, in practice, taking the Eucharist every week does not lead to Christlikeness, of what value is it?

Like I said-evangelicals settle for a hollow emotional experience. Catholic have a direct physical reationship.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

This is a discussion group. You dont get to define what rghts i have no more than i get to decide what rights you have.

When the Church makes its crystal clear that no other faith has the fulness of the truth are they likewise guilty of devaluing someones faith? Perhaps in your zeal to make everyone “like” you are leading people away from the One True Church?

Your claim was that every other church just goes through the motions.

Can you explain then how and why the catholic church states that Orthodoxy has true apostolic succession and that all of their sacraments are vaild.

That does not sound like going through the motions to me. And the catholic church doesnt seem to think so either.

Your statement ‘‘going through the motions’’ is insulting and derogatory to anyones faith, but notice, while the catholic church does claim to be the one church that contains the fullness of truth - nowhere does it state other faiths are simply ‘‘going through the motions’’ and actually asserts all other faiths, if held fervently and with good conscience can be instuments of salvation.

Even the catholic church itself is not so boastful and arrogant as to assume God is limited to only working through it.

Unlike some catholics.

 

[happilycatholic]

This is a discussion group. You dont get to define what rghts i have no more than i get to decide what rights you have.

When the Church makes its crystal clear that no other faith has the fulness of the truth are they likewise guilty of devaluing someones faith? Perhaps in your zeal to make everyone “like” you are leading people away from the One True Church?

bob, how in the world can I make everyone like me if I’m making you pretty much not like me? Don’t you think I think there may be others just like you who won’t like me?

No bob, that’s not what I’m doing here. I’ve stated what I believe.

You are correct, I do not have any more right to tell you what your rights are than you have to tell someone if their relationship with God is what it should be.

Stating a person doesn’t have the “fullness of Truth” is much different than telling them they are “going through the motions”.

Hmmm, by your analogy, Pope Benedict must have been trying to make the Muslims in Instanbul “like” him rather than being echumenical. The Pope goes to Turkey to make people like him.

That’s interesting. I shall ponder it.

Not.

Peace Be With You bob. I like you.

 

[happilycatholic]

No. I know you want to wax lyrical about the Real Presence, but the OP is about “knowing Jesus”. The Roman Catholic Eucharist is worthless if it does not lead to sanctification. That is what “knowing Jesus” is about and unfortunately in my experience, too few RCs actually fit that description compared to the Evangelicals I have met. If, in practice, taking the Eucharist every week does not lead to Christlikeness, of what value is it?

And we have bob’s opponent. This is why demeaning each other’s faith practices are evil. Evil begets evil. One does it then another justifies doing it. **BIG FAT EDIT – I am NOT saying you are evil. I’m just saying it’s lurking here waiting for an opportunity and you gave it one.

Look, it doesn’t matter whether you believe Christ is present in the Eucharist, you could have some respect for those of us that do believe it. For you it’s one thing, for us it’s another.

I think we can stick to “knowing Jesus” without trying to demean the Eucharist or the way others receive communion.

‘Receiving’ the Eucharist does not “lead” to anything. It is not meant to convert anyone. It is a means to ‘receive’ Grace. Receiving Grace does not make one a perfect Christian to then go about without sinning. No one here has claimed that.

As catholics we believe we ‘receive’ Grace through the sacrament of the Eucharist. You are the only one who believes that it will magically or should magically make us Christlike.

If reading your Bible doesn’t make you Christlike, what good is it? Sounds a little off-center huh?

Peace Be With You,

HC

 

[Adonia]

Just one little nitpicky comment.

I think it is wonderful that Christ moves through your Communion service to draw you closer to Him.

However, I don’t believe that you should assume that the same thing is happening in the hearts of everybody elses as is happening in yours.

In any Christian setting, mine, yours, or the Baptist church down the block, it is possible to be just going through the motions and never, really, ever, making a personal, heart-felt decision for Jesus Christ.

Sorry, but i will disagree a little here. As a Pentecostal/Charismatic, you come to Christ in a different way than those of us who follow the Roman Rite. The process of just believing in Christ as our Savior, attending Church, and trying to follow the Commandments is in my mind a defacto decision for Christ! He brought it all about! It seems the one thing we Christians are sometimes guilty of is bringing forth a different part of the Scriptures and placing those in the forefront. Some speak in tonques, others might have a more elaborate liturgy. God is pleased when we worship him in however it comes from our hearts. Who are we to decide what is in the hearts of others as it pertains to their relationship with Our Lord? We are different people with different personalities, thus my relationship with Christ is different from yours or my wife’s. My 86 year old father, for example, does not go around saying things like “Jesus is Lord"or " Praise God” etc…, but he has followed Jesus’ admonition to obey the Commandments, help those in need, and prays regularly. Does he not have, in his own way, a heartfelt reationship with Christ? Is this not as valid a relationship with Christ as mine or yours?