why do some people think Catholics don't know Jesus?

[kalt]

Again, your and other RCs insistence on focusing on the Holy Eucharist (which I have explained previously that I by no means intend to demean) just shows that Evangelicals and Catholics have completely different ideas of what it means to “know Jesus”.

For the Evangelical, “knowing Jesus” is an inward, personal change due to conversion and absorbing God’s Word that leads to outward signs of holiness, especially the Fruits of the Spirit. You may not like this definition but I think it is basically what Non Catholics imply. Other Evangelicals may correct me.

For Roman Catholics, “knowing Jesus” means participating in the sacraments, especially the Eucharist. Less emphasis is placed on outward signs of holiness and more on the Mystery of the Eucharist and participating in the life of the Church.

I hope this is a charitable rendering of the different perspectives (in a thread notably lacking in charity, which for my part I can only ask forgiveness).

I taught CCD. Your guess that there is little emphasis placed on behavior is inaccurate. We emphaisze living as a Christian should. These aren’t outward “signs” of our Christianity, done to** show** others as a kind of proof that we know Jesus. We do these things because we are Christ’s. These behaviors aren’t actions for show and tell. It’s not about wearing our religion on our sleeves. These actions are about what we are called to **be **as Christians.

That evangelical Christians don’t believe that quiet faith is strong faith is irrelevant.

Imagine all the quiet Christians who’ve done the will of God for love’s sake alone. Those who’ve fed the poor, but didn’t tell you about it. The women who quietly saved a few Jews in Germany–the women whose names we’ll never know.

Outwardly, some of these Christians who know Jesus may not seem joyful to you, and so don’t fit your defintion of someone who knows Christ. Maybe they are old, in pain, and prone to being crotchity. Perhaps at home, in the silence, they are closer to Jesus than the evangelical who parades this “knowing Jesus” before anyone who will look and listen.

Christians should be “joyful”, but joy doesn’t mean having a perpetually sunny disposition. If being “joyful” (as described in this thread) were the defining trait, can someone who said he knows Jesus and finds himself depressed still say that he knows Jesus?

 

[kalt]

One final post and that is it.

This sort of reminds me of my story.

My parents had me baptized as an infant in the Methodist church.

Now I know a lot of us evangelicals have a cow over infant baptism, but I look at it as them just being obedient to their teaching and doing what they felt was right for my Christianity. So I take it as a good thing.

I was as good of a Christian as a kid would be. When I was about 12 it was time for the “join the church” which was the next step in being raised a Methodist. I suppose this was the Methodist equivalent of confirmation.

Now again I know a lot of us evangelicals have a cow over confirmation, but for me this was a good thing at the time under my circumstance. Many years later my parents gave me the paperwork they got when I joined the church, and it was very interesting for me to read in this paperwork that yes, at that time I made a decision for Jesus Christ.

But the problem was that none of this stuck through the years that followed and by the time I got to college it was totally forgotten. So when I was in college, I made the personal decision for Jesus Christ that was persistent and has continued through this day.

And I date the beginning of my Christian walk to this point. But that having been said, I am really not sure how to interpret what happened when I was 12. I can’t remember much about it except that I sort of liked one of the girls who was doing this at the same time,. You see, in my current church I see a lot of kids make decisions for Jesus Christ when they are that age only to walk away from it later. Do I say (to be consistent) what happened to them at that age was not valid. So I have to assume that something happened at this time.

I can easily see a parallel universe scenario where what happened to me at 12 did stick through the following years, and having being raised in the Methodist church that I become a good Methodist for the rest of my life. And then I would have folks in the church down the street concerned about my soul because my story was not like their story and my Christian experience not like theirs Christian experience and my Christianese not like their Christianese.

But that is not the way that it happened.

I think your baptism “stuck”, too. It wasn’t for nothing. Baptism is more than just a symbol. IMO, your Christian journey began when you became a Christian, the day you were baptized.

Teens of all stripes get lax in their religion. They question. They walk away. They think they know all the answers and that they don’t really need religion - at least not “organized religion”. God, how often have we heard teens, especially college students, say that. Some go one better and blame “organized religion” for all that’s wrong with the world. A little knowledge…

 

[Sarah_Angel]

That was a completely unfair cut and paste of a fragment of my full sentence. Please don’t do that to me.

The benefit of an internet debate is that we can hopefully ask honest questions and make comments in a civilised, grace-filled manner, without having such misconstrued.

I apologize. But you have to understand that the Real Presence is never worthless, even if some of the people receiving it don’t fully believe it. That is why I cut your post short. The Real Presence itself does not base its worth on those receiving it; it is based on its reality and the fullness of truth of Jesus’ words and sacrifice on Calvary.

Yes, Scripture and the Early Church Fathers are full of references about how men look at externals, but God looks at the heart. So any religious act–participating in communion, “accepting Christ as your personal Saviour”, confession, reading Scripture, attending church, praying–is fairly meaningless if it is just a “vain repetition” and our heart doesn’t change, leading us to be more like Christ, a process often called sanctification.

But who are you to judge if someone is doing these external things without a change in the heart? Of course it’s vain if it’s simply an external thing; no one in this thread is saying that it isn’t. But there are people who practice all sorts of religions – including Evangelicals, I’m sure – who just “go through the motions” without changing their hearts.

And just because something is repetitious, it doesn’t mean that it’s vain, either. I’m not sure if you believe that all repetition is vain, so this may not necessarily apply to you, but you have to understand that with the repetition comes a new “close-to-the-heart” experience. The pastor at my parish watched the Passion of the Christ in theaters at least 12 times, and he said that every time he watched it, he experienced something new about the movie and the actual Passion of Christ, whether it was about Jesus’ sacrifice, the women in the movie, the apostles, the Pharisees, and anything that delves deeper than the surface of those subjects.

Experiencing Jesus never gets old if you have the means to search for Him. A lot of the times, repetition helps you do that. Do you know how hard it would be to search for a new means of reaching Jesus every time you prayed? There would be no consistency in your relationship with Him if that were the case.

 

[St_Aloysius_1]

Nowhere in Scripture is membership in a denomination equated with knowing Jesus.

Scripture tells us that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, so that’s where I want to be. Scripture also tells us nothing about membership in the Church being equated with the inability to know Jesus. Quite to the contrary.

If a Catholic claims they did not know Christ while a member of the Catholic church and came to Christ through some other mechanism than the Catholic church, who am I to disbelieve him.

Believe him because it may be true for him, but not in reality. He loses Sacred Tradition in his new church, thus part of God’s revelation, so he is incomplete in his knowledge, though he thinks he knows Jesus.

Catholics should be happy when this happens. Isn’t knowing Jesus what it is all about. By the same token, Protestants should be happy if the same thing happens in reverse.

Catholics are not happy when anyone falls away from the Truth of Christ’s Church.

Isn’t it a mortal sin if you don’t go to mass regularly unless you go to confession. If a Catholic is in mortal sin, then per their own faith they do not know Jesus. I would think you should be happy if a Catholic in mortal sin comes to Jesus Christ a mechanism other than the Catholic church.

Yes, it is a mortal sin which means you are out of God’s grace. It doesn’t remove your relationship with God, though, because you can seek repentance in Confession. If you anger your mother by doing something she doesn’t like, you are out of favor in the family, but it certainly doesn’t mean you no longer know your mother.

Just because some Catholics do not know Jesus, it does not necessarily mean that all Catholics do not know Jesus. It is too broad for any Protestant to make a general statement Catholics do not know Jesus. Some do. And I for one think it is condescending to add “despite the church” to this statement. Who am I to say it is “despite their church”.

I think it is far too broad a statement because it is a small minority of Catholics who don’t know Jesus. Too many non-Catholics rely on being “born again”, having some spiritual epiphany where they suddenly discover Jesus, ala St Paul. Catholics are born again of water and spirit as the BIble commands rhtough the Sacraments of Baptism, the Eucharist and Confirmation. Catholics know Jesus, have no fear.

Who says our churches do not have the truth. Jesus is the truth.

Jesus ordained one Church through Peter and the Apotles and that Church has held since the first days that tradition is an essential part of faith. Paul, Timothy, Mark, John, etc all speak of what you have heard and what you have learned about Jesus in their Gospels and Epistles. They don’t say, what you have read. They speak of the oral tradition of the Apotles and their successors. Tradition is the cornerstone on which the Church was built and how it grew. If you don’t have Sacred Tradtion which sustained the Church for centuries before there was a New Testament, you do not have the whole truth.

Oh by the way, as far as the Catholic church being the “church founded by Jesus”. Have you ever heard the words of Jesus to Jews who were bragging about their lineage. Hint, he was not impressed. So even if that statement is true.

Have you heard the words of Jesus, You are Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church? Catholics don’t “brag” about their lineage, they merely point to it to show they are the Church of Christ. It indicates that through Apostolic succession, they have the Truth from Christ.

I know I am going to get flamed for these comments. I probably will not respond (maybe I will but I doubt it). It is just too tiring to do so.

No flaming, just an attempt to set the record straight.

Peace

 

[JesusforMadrid]

I apologize. But you have to understand that the Real Presence is never worthless, even if some of the people receiving it don’t fully believe it. That is why I cut your post short. The Real Presence itself does not base its worth on those receiving it; it is based on its reality and the fullness of truth of Jesus’ words and sacrifice on Calvary.

But who are you to judge if someone is doing these external things without a change in the heart? Of course it’s vain if it’s simply an external thing; no one in this thread is saying that it isn’t. But there are people who practice all sorts of religions – including Evangelicals, I’m sure – who just “go through the motions” without changing their hearts.

And just because something is repetitious, it doesn’t mean that it’s vain, either. I’m not sure if you believe that all repetition is vain, so this may not necessarily apply to you, but you have to understand that with the repetition comes a new “close-to-the-heart” experience. The pastor at my parish watched the Passion of the Christ in theaters at least 12 times, and he said that every time he watched it, he experienced something new about the movie and the actual Passion of Christ, whether it was about Jesus’ sacrifice, the women in the movie, the apostles, the Pharisees, and anything that delves deeper than the surface of those subjects.

Experiencing Jesus never gets old if you have the means to search for Him. A lot of the times, repetition helps you do that. Do you know how hard it would be to search for a new means of reaching Jesus every time you prayed? There would be no consistency in your relationship with Him if that were the case.

Apology accepted.

“Vain repetition” is again a question of the heart, not external religious acts.

Yet an internal change, if it is real, should produce external fruit, what St. Paul calls the Fruits of the Spirit. These fruits are evident, not hidden.

Yes, for your information, I pray the Trisagion prayers first thing and last thing, every day. I also pray spontaneous prayers for my family, friends and country. I am a sort of catholic Evangelical (as opposed to evangelical Catholic)…

The Trisagion Prayers

Glory to thee, our God, glory to thee.

O heavenly King, 0 Comforter, the Spirit of truth, who art in all places and
fillest all things; Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come and
dwell in us and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, 0 gracious
Lord.

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy or us. (Thrice)

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: now and ever,
and unto ages of ages. Amen.

All-holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, cleanse us from our sins. Master,
pardon our iniquities. Holy God visit and heal our infirmities for thy
Name’s sake.

Lord, have mercy. (Thrice)
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: both now and
ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name; thy kingdom come; thy
will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily
bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass
against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the Father, and
of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages.
Amen.

 

[Reuben_J]

Again, your and other RCs insistence on focusing on the Holy Eucharist (which I have explained previously that I by no means intend to demean) just shows that Evangelicals and Catholics have completely different ideas of what it means to “know Jesus”.

For the Evangelical, “knowing Jesus” is an inward, personal change due to conversion and absorbing God’s Word that leads to outward signs of holiness, especially the Fruits of the Spirit. You may not like this definition but I think it is basically what Non Catholics imply. Other Evangelicals may correct me.

For Roman Catholics, “knowing Jesus” means participating in the sacraments, especially the Eucharist. Less emphasis is placed on outward signs of holiness and more on the Mystery of the Eucharist and participating in the life of the Church.

By the time this post is out perhaps this issue is addressed already. Anyway, here it is …

I have no problem with your defintion of ‘knowing Jesus’. My problem with this is if you think that we do not have it. This is certainly not the sole property of Protestants.

It seems from the discussion on this thread that the Eucharist seems to be the focus. May I add, it is insomuch it leads to holiness, conversion and Christ-like for the person concerned. My objection is for you saying that it is useless in achieving these whereby it is not. In fact through the Eucharist, it is even deeper than just ‘knowing Jesus’ if you understand how Catholics feel when they are in full communion with Jesus literally in the Eucharist. With Jesus body and blood assimilated into my own body and blood how could I not be transformed to be like Jesus? In fact every time I step out of the mass it is Jesus that has literally taken over me that now I can serve the Lord as how Jesus does. Now, how is this different from your definition of “knowing Jesus”? What is more than in like Jesus himself in knowing him?

Having said that, Eucharist is NOT the only means for us to achieve holiness and inward conversion and love for things spiritual. That is why I ask you, how do you get to know Jesus? For us, it is prayer and prayer. Specifically it is prayer, the word, service and involved in the community, which generally leads us to what we called growth. Holy Eucharist is a form of prayer and worship; to the Catholics it is the highest form of worship. It will indeed be enhanced if we have a good prayer life, knowing and living the word, involved in services and ministries and living in a community where you get support from the community of believers in your spiritual walk.

The natural consequence of all these will of course leads to the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Why is it that we as Catholics cannot achieve this or why do you think that this is so foreign to us? You can look at the lives of Catholic saints to know that this exist in us.

I hope this is a charitable rendering of the different perspectives (in a thread notably lacking in charity, which for my part I can only ask forgiveness).

Alright maybe the tone is quite belligerent and defensive or maybe the discussion on this topic is not handled appropriately. But OTOH how is it can be charitable when you say the **Roman Catholic Eucharist **is useless; especially when it is not true? Many Catholics have been tremendously benefitted spiritually by the grace of the Holy Eucharist and here you come saying it is useless; from you who are not even a Catholic. If you look at the title of the thread and you seem to agree with that, how can that be charitable? How do you expect ordinary Catholic to respond to that? How do you expect us to respond to you when it is being said that one unable to know Jesus within the Catholic Church and moreover if that’s not true?

God bless you.

 

[Reuben_J]

Against my better judgement I am returning to this thread even though to some (one) I am just going through the motions anyway and my whole Christian experience is a waste.

Actually I tried to not make it Christianese. Christianese in my mind would have been “Accepting Jesus Christ as my personal saviour” or “Got saved”.

I tried to coin a phrase that well meant “personal” (as opposed to corporate), “decision” (like a choice…an conscious, heart-felt act of the will) and “Jesus Christ” like a person. If this is Christianese, I don’t know how to express this otherwise. But maybe that is why I am NotTooSmart.

Now I don’t want to get into infant baptism (I was baptized as an infant BTW), but I do want to observe that that is not the choice of the infant.

I guess the bottom line question for me is, that I personally know folks that were Catholics that say (in some way or another) that they “did not know Jesus” as a Catholic. Why should I disbelieve their stories.

And that is wonderful. So on the other hand, why should I disbelieve the stories of Catholics who say they are making ongoing personal decisions for Jesus Christ.

We know that it is an illusion to grab for thing as lasting the feeling of being ‘high’ which is usually associated with the phenomenon of ‘knowing Jesus’. This will not last as we are too humans to sustain it. No doubt the Holy Spirit will always be there to refresh us when we needs him but nevertheless it is all over Christians where at some points in time someone fall and backslide. So we don’t put too much stock if it is about feeling. It would be more commendable if we persevere and faithful because having to pass through the desert and dryness is a reality. So this is for your information and hope you understand why Catholics say the thing being said.

That’s what we see about Catholics who left the Church and then say they know Jesus in other churches. The simple fact is that they can find and know Jesus in the ol Catholic Church. We don’t disbelief if former Catholics say so. I think the objection was when you said we should rejoice when a Catholic left the Church and know Jesus in another. So I hope by now you know the impact of that statement. I for one understand your intention and you being not Catholic, I can accept it. Just to let you know why some of you may get strange reaction other than you expect from us here.

Infant Baptism is another subject but it is not as simple as what it seems to be. The problem is when you fault it or think it as a cause for something that it is not.

God bless you.

 

[NotTooSmart]

I think the objection was when you said we should rejoice when a Catholic left the Church and know Jesus in another.

I will change the statement from Catholics “should be happy” to Catholics “should be understanding”.

I do have biggie issues if any denomination feels a member has left the Christian faith when they leave their denomination (or church) and go to another. The worst manifestation of this mindset is “shunning”, but I have seen and been victim to more subtle manifestations as well. And this touches on the whole issue of Spiritual Abuse which there are several books on. But anyway, one of the big characteristics of spiritual abuse is the mindset that someone leaves the Christian faith when they leave their particular church or denomination for another one.

And yes that is practiced alot on our side of the fence both explicitely and implicitely.

 

[kalt]

I will change the statement from Catholics “should be happy” to Catholics “should be understanding”.

I do have biggie issues if any denomination feels a member has left the Christian faith when they leave their denomination (or church) and go to another. The worst manifestation of this mindset is “shunning”, but I have seen and been victim to more subtle manifestations as well. And this touches on the whole issue of Spiritual Abuse which there are several books on. But anyway, one of the big characteristics of spiritual abuse is the mindset that someone leaves the Christian faith when they leave their particular church or denomination for another one.

And yes that is practiced alot on our side of the fence both explicitely and implicitely.

Catholics don’t think that a Catholic leaves the Christian faith by jpining a denomination after leaving the CC. Catholics don’t practice shunning.

 

[mark_a]

If you have a Bible,

Hmmm. . . . Arrogant and presumptuous!

 

[JesusforMadrid]

By the time this post is out perhaps this issue is addressed already. Anyway, here it is …

I have no problem with your defintion of ‘knowing Jesus’. My problem with this is if you think that we do not have it. This is certainly not the sole property of Protestants.

It seems from the discussion on this thread that the Eucharist seems to be the focus. May I add, it is insomuch it leads to holiness, conversion and Christ-like for the person concerned. My objection is for you saying that it is useless in achieving these whereby it is not. In fact through the Eucharist, it is even deeper than just ‘knowing Jesus’ if you understand how Catholics feel when they are in full communion with Jesus literally in the Eucharist. With Jesus body and blood assimilated into my own body and blood how could I not be transformed to be like Jesus? In fact every time I step out of the mass it is Jesus that has literally taken over me that now I can serve the Lord as how Jesus does. Now, how is this different from your definition of “knowing Jesus”? What is more than in like Jesus himself in knowing him?

Having said that, Eucharist is NOT the only means for us to achieve holiness and inward conversion and love for things spiritual. That is why I ask you, how do you get to know Jesus? For us, it is prayer and prayer. Specifically it is prayer, the word, service and involved in the community, which generally leads us to what we called growth. Holy Eucharist is a form of prayer and worship; to the Catholics it is the highest form of worship. It will indeed be enhanced if we have a good prayer life, knowing and living the word, involved in services and ministries and living in a community where you get support from the community of believers in your spiritual walk.

The natural consequence of all these will of course leads to the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Why is it that we as Catholics cannot achieve this or why do you think that this is so foreign to us? You can look at the lives of Catholic saints to know that this exist in us.

God bless you.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I really have nothing more to add.

This thread has been helpful in clarifying some issues and has reminded me that Evangelicals and Catholics often talk at cross purposes because they have completely, stark, fundamentally different perspectives on certain issues, such as what it means to “know Jesus”. To Catholics, we Evangelicals are evangelised but not (fully) sacramentalised. To Evangelicals, many Catholics are sacramentalised, but not fully evangelised. So of course we cannot agree on what it means to “know Jesus”.

We have radically different presupositions.

I now realise that I do not “know Jesus” if, by the Roman Catholic definition, that means participarting in the RC communion.

So we do not belong to just different denominations or different churches. Really, we belong to different faiths who follow the same triune God. As such, the comments of this thread, even some of the less charitable ones, make perfect, logical sense.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Everybody needs to make a personal decision for Jesus Christ. Even Catholics.

Where is the word “personal” in the bible? Protestants use that word an awful lot.

 

[SteveGC]

Something else to chew on…

The non-Catholic evangelical rally cry of “you will know them by their fruit” is one of the most abused and misrepresented scripture verses out there.

The evangelicals often build their entire “targeting” strategy around this premise…that they somehow are capable of knowing who to evangelize with their version of the Gospel by virtue of personally witnessing people’s fruit…or lack thereof. Hence, Catholics who are typically more inward in their faith, more contemplative in Mass, more in connection with the sorrowful Passion and Death (every Mass it is recounted in depth), are outwardly seen as showing no fruit…which typically equates in the non-Catholic mind as some kind of slap-happy joyful sing-song personality who smiles at everyone and is extroverted and publicly displays works of charity…many Catholics are not like this…and thus, are prime targets for proselytization. While in fact, the true fruits of the Spirit, per scripture, are not necessarily outward and revealed to all.

Now I’m not saying that those type of people (slap-happies) don’t have the fruit of the Spirit. And I’m also not saying that they do.

What I’m saying is that I’m NOT SAYING…because in this “know them by their fruit”, the THEM is not your everyday Christian man or woman one meets in everyday life. This passage is directed at the fruit of those who would come prophesying, perhaps falsely…perhaps truthfully. The admonishment is for those who are the targets of their preaching to examine *these persons *who come as shepherds…and it is *these alleged teachers *whose fruit is to be witnessed…or not…to assess correctly if one should take heed of their wisdom…or not. In other words…this teaching is not a “target for evangelization since they obviously don’t know Jesus” command…it is a “discern your teachers so that you are not led astray” command.

This strengthens the notion that we are never to presume who “knows Jesus” and who doesn’t…it isn’t our business to know. It is our business to live for Christ, and spread the gospel often…using words when necessary (St Francis)…to everyone we meet…not just those who we think don’t exhibit the “fruit of the Spirit”.

If anything…those that come to Catholics thinking we need them because we don’t have “the fruit” are the ones whose “fruit” we Catholics are to examine to ensure they are worthy of our attention. Most often…they are not…because part of being fruitful is abiding in Christ’s Church…obviously lacking in all of them.

Matthew 7//
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

 

[Voice_Of_Truth_1]

Well, I’m a Christian,and honestly I don’t think Catholics really KNOW Jesus. Anyone can have a relationship with Him, whether it’s a good one, or a bad one. But the way I look at it, Catholics misinterpret parts of the Bible, and they pray to Mary and other saints. God is the only one who we should be praying to, He is the only one who should be praised. So, I don’t think that a Catholic can truely know Jesus Christ as well as a Christian can. Jesus is the only one who can forgive sin, and I really see no point in going to confession, when all I have to do is pray to God, and ask him to forgive me (and truely mean it).

That’s just my looks on it…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Welcome to the forums. . .but I’ll just give you a little head’s up info, because it looks like you missed the memo:

Catholics ARE Christians.

All the other ‘scattershot’ charges in your post are already addressed in the library here at Catholic Answers. Go right ahead and read the articles (just search on the topics, there are all kinds of tracts and articles) so you’ll know what the Church really teaches. Then if you want to keep on arguing (in another separate thread of course), at least you’ll know that there is a reasonable ‘rebuttal’ to those beliefs, even if you don’t choose to accept it. It makes the whole process of communication much more enjoyable for all of us when people actually take the trouble of finding out such easily available things as all those “Catholic beliefs” from the CATHOLIC point of view before ‘whomping’ us ignorant papists with Lorraine Boettner’s and Alexander Hislop’s “cut-and-paste” whoppers. . .

 

[SteveGC]

Well, I’m a Christian,and honestly I don’t think Catholics really KNOW Jesus. Anyone can have a relationship with Him, whether it’s a good one, or a bad one. But the way I look at it, Catholics misinterpret parts of the Bible, and they pray to Mary and other saints. God is the only one who we should be praying to, He is the only one who should be praised. So, I don’t think that a Catholic can truely know Jesus Christ as well as a Christian can. Jesus is the only one who can forgive sin, and I really see no point in going to confession, when all I have to do is pray to God, and ask him to forgive me (and truely mean it).

That’s just my looks on it…

All that in your inaugural post right out of the gate, eh?

2 suggestions.

1. Learn the basics of the Catholic faith from Catholics.
2. Never make presumptions about another’s relationship with Christ, unless you are witness to behavior clearly NOT of Christ (might want to look at my post just above yours).

 

[Tezza]

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I really have nothing more to add.

This thread has been helpful in clarifying some issues and has reminded me that Evangelicals and Catholics often talk at cross purposes because they have completely, stark, fundamentally different perspectives on certain issues, such as what it means to “know Jesus”. To Catholics, we Evangelicals are evangelised but not (fully) sacramentalised. To Evangelicals, many Catholics are sacramentalised, but not fully evangelised. So of course we cannot agree on what it means to “know Jesus”.

We have radically different presupositions.

I now realise that I do not “know Jesus” if, by the Roman Catholic definition, that means participarting in the RC communion.

So we do not belong to just different denominations or different churches. Really, we belong to different faiths who follow the same triune God. As such, the comments of this thread, even some of the less charitable ones, make perfect, logical sense.

It is quite the conumdrum, isn’t it? We’re all speaking English, but we’re not speaking the same language.

I like Blessed Teresa of Calcutta’s explanation of evangelization:

“To evangelize means that you have Jesus in your own heart, and then you carry him to the hearts of others.”

I believe that, as a Catholic, I am sacramentalized and evangelized. I also take my Baptismal call seriously in which all Christians are given the mission to evangelize. Some use words, some use actions, some ignore this call completely. Ahhh, good 'ole free will.

You are correct in feeling frustration over the simple phrase “know Jesus”. I “know Jesus” intimately and in many ways. I’m getting to know him more and more. It’s quite exciting! Others “know him” in that they understand he is the son of God who died for our sins. Even if they never read scripture, this little tidbit of information is pretty essential to beginning to “know Jesus”.

As a Catholic who understands the sacraments, I feel I “know Jesus” more intimately than someone who doesn’t have access to the Eucharist because I physically consume HIM. The only form of intimacy that even comes close (though still very imperfect) is when two flesh become one in the marital relationship. Thus, our hang-up with the Eucharist. It’s a great thing to be hung up on. For our Catholic brothers and sisters who walk away from that gift, what tragedy. The thought that one has to leave the Church to find Jesus is quite the oxymoron

Alas, that is how difficult it is to bear that our non-Catholic brethren think Catholics (sweeping statement) aren’t saved, don’t have a personal relationship with Jesus, haven’t accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, or don’t “know Jesus”.

In general, we are all being converted. We may have huge moments where we realize we aren’t living for God, aren’t putting him first, aren’t praying enough, etc. We may have small moments each day where we are convicted and strive to be better servants. God is constantly molding us. In Catholicism, it starts in Baptism. In Evangelical circles, it’s usually a moment in time and a decision for Christ. Either way, we are both getting to “know Jesus”.

Peace in Christ,
Teri

 

[FollowGodAlone]

The reason christians say that catholics dont really know Jesus is because of a lot of the things the catholic church teaches goes against the bible and contradicts it. Someone on here said “For Catholics, the relationship with Jesus is centered around the Eucharist. For many Protestants, it is centered around His word, through scripture.” Okay that right there should be a big sign that pops up and question mark. If you look up and study the background of the “eucharist” its actually came from the egyptians and their sun god that they worshiped called osiris. The egyptian priests would pray over these wafers to make them “holy” than they told the people that a miracle had happened and said that the wafer had turned into the flesh of the sun god, osiris. They, like the catholic church, called it transubstantiation. And the people took it and ate it, much like the catholics do in the church today. So it really does not have to do with God at all. Communion, as it says in Gods word, is to do it in rememberance of Jesus and what he went through and did for us, your not actually taking the body of Jesus or He is not really dying on the cross everytime catholics pray over the wafer. So when that guy said for catholics, the relationship with Jesus is centered around the eucharist, in reality, what it really means is the catholic church is centered around the sun god, and this can be proven in many paintings, pictures, or any art really in or from the catholic church or catholics. You can see a bright star around jesus or mary or a sun and moon looking down on Jesus on the cross. A lot of that also comes from pagans. So catholicism is not really based on God as much as its based on a mixture of other religions, trying to bring them into and under the catholic religion, which pretty much already happend on october 27, 1986 under pope john paul II. Now the reason why most christians go by the word of God and speak of it more or be more “expressive” about God is beacuse the bible says we are to go and preach about God so that others can be saved and have the love of God.

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” Mark 16:15

The Word of God is for us to read and study so that we may have wisdom and knowledge and that it might be used for guidence.

“Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” Psalm 119:105

“For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;” 1 Corinthians 12:8

“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” 1 Corinthians 2:13

“Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.” Proverbs 4:5

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” Colossians 3:16

We are supposed to read the bible, you cant depend on a religion or a church for everything on God for they are not God, just as that verse 1 Corinthians 2:13 says, God does not speak in the wisdom of man but of what the Holy Ghost teaches and says, becasue you have to compare spiritual things with spiritual things. Thats why you see Christians more joyful or outgoing about God becasue by reading the bible and worshiping and getting filled with the Holy Ghost brings great joy and love for God and a closer and better relationship with Him.

The catholic church does not speak on these things but more on doing good deeds and works and trying to live a good life, is the way to get to heaven which is wrong and goes against the bible.

“For it is by grace you have been saved and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

“Jesus said to Him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6

‘I tell you the truth, unless one is born again, he cannot be in God’s kingdom.’ John 3:3

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him…” Revelation 3:20

“That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” Romans 10:9

Also another thing The catholic church teaches prayers to mary and that she is a mediator between earth and heaven that she helps us by calming Jesus or putting in a good word for us, which is not true at all it goes against the bible. Jesus is not an angry Lord that needs to be clamed down by his mother, nor does mary need to be prayed to for she was just a human that the Lord used for an amazing thing, for it was not through her that the amazing birth of Jesus happend, but through God. Does a father need his mother to calm him down when his children has wronged, or does a father not forgive, care, and love with open arms when his children come to him and ask for forgiveness. Just as our Father does for us, for his love is unconditional and ever lasting. He is waiting with open arms to pick you up and forgive you. Did he not love us soo much that he sent his only son to die on the cross for our sins? Would an angry god do such a thing? No He wouldnt, therefore we do not need to pray to anyone but Him alone for He is the only one that has made such sacrifice for us, and is our only God and saviour.

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” 1 Timothy 2:5

And the catholic church does many many other things that contradicts the bible. The only way to know the truth is by the word of God alone! You have to spend time reading His word and just sit and pray and talk to Him about things instead of going to a priest or someone else. If you pray and ask God to come into your heart and to forgive you of your sins and really mean it than i guarantee you will feel different. And by reading the bible it gives such closer perspective and a better understanding on God and what He has for each of us. If you ask God ‘who are you?’ What do you have for me?’ He will speak to you. Its such an incredible feeling to be in the presence of God and to walk with Him and talk with Him. But you cant depend on religion for religion is a man made thing therefore is imperfect and has flaws. God is not about religion and traditions, but about love and relationship.

 

[Reuben_J]

The reason christians say that catholics dont really know Jesus is because of a lot of the things the catholic church teaches goes against the bible and contradicts it. Someone on here said “For Catholics, the relationship with Jesus is centered around the Eucharist. For many Protestants, it is centered around His word, through scripture.” Okay that right there should be a big sign that pops up and question mark. If you look up and study the background of the “eucharist” its actually came from the egyptians and their sun god that they worshiped called osiris. The egyptian priests would pray over these wafers to make them “holy” than they told the people that a miracle had happened and said that the wafer had turned into the flesh of the sun god, osiris. They, like the catholic church, called it transubstantiation. And the people took it and ate it, much like the catholics do in the church today. So it really does not have to do with God at all. Communion, as it says in Gods word, is to do it in rememberance of Jesus and what he went through and did for us, your not actually taking the body of Jesus or He is not really dying on the cross everytime catholics pray over the wafer. So when that guy said for catholics, the relationship with Jesus is centered around the eucharist, in reality, what it really means is the catholic church is centered around the sun god, and this can be proven in many paintings, pictures, or any art really in or from the catholic church or catholics. You can see a bright star around jesus or mary or a sun and moon looking down on Jesus on the cross. A lot of that also comes from pagans. So catholicism is not really based on God as much as its based on a mixture of other religions, trying to bring them into and under the catholic religion, which pretty much already happend on october 27, 1986 under pope john paul II. Now the reason why most christians go by the word of God and speak of it more or be more “expressive” about God is beacuse the bible says we are to go and preach about God so that others can be saved and have the love of God.

I will just turn a blind eye to this for now. I guess in your heart you too know how ridiculous this is. If this is all you have to argue against the Eucharist, you might as well become Catholic because you have nothing to stand on. But if you still insist on legend and myth, I have only the feeling sorry for you.

Now even if it is true, what about the gift of faith? If you have faith in something, don’t you think God will not grant it? I know there are big group of Protestants who step up in faith and who put lots of trust in faith that God will respond and intervene in their cries and prayers. What happen to the gift of faith? Have you never heard of it?

Anyway, all of this about Catholics not knowing Jesus only goes to show ignorance on the part of Protestants (in this group). As has been explained, Catholics are as hard working, as zealous, as loving, as expressive and as holy in evangelizing, knowing and living the word of God, Christian charity and living the word as if it is their very own. I don’t think we are much less than Protestants on this. In fact all that you have we have them. That’s why I asked another poster, JesusforMadrid, how do you get to ‘know Jesus’?

Apart from what you have we have the Sacraments and the one and true Church. Some of these things are not said here; I don’t think any Catholic would say this because this amount to glorifying ourselves - it’s boasting. I say this only for the sake of learning process and for your information. And may God forgive me for I can never measure up to his glory.

God bless you.

 

[SteveGC]

The reason christians say that catholics dont really know Jesus is because of a lot of the things the catholic church teaches goes against the bible and contradicts it.
snip
But you cant depend on religion for religion is a man made thing therefore is imperfect and has flaws. God is not about religion and traditions, but about love and relationship.

::sigh::