why do some people think Catholics don't know Jesus?

[josie_L]

You have great faith however misguided. I have no doubts because God knows me and He knows my heart, for He drew me to Him and I came to Him on His terms; not because of a religious affiliation or some phony confessional, but on His terms as it is written.

May God bless you and reveal to you what He demands and may He call you.

Tanner I’m curious but where do you go every sunday for “communion” services? And do you really think that the apostles (and their successors) were advocating a “church” of believers with no religious cohesiveness by implying that each individual should come to terms with God without the help of those appointed authorities in the Church, i.e., the apostles?

May God bless you and reveal to you what He demands and may He call you

 

[josie_L]

**The Council of Trent
The canons and decrees of the sacred
and ecumenical Council of Trent
**
That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.

No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.

Canon 14: “If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.”

What God says:

1. “For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness,” (Rom. 4:3).
2. “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” (Rom. 5:1). Peace is full reconciliation with God by faith through Christ - All of grace.

How do you define faith?

 

[happilycatholic]

Can I make a suggestion to all the players on this thread?

Before this becomes an endless debate over the Gospel according to Tanner vs the Gospel according to Christ, can we try to draw out more substantive discussion related to the OP? Specifically, we should be discussing why people think Catholics don’t know Jesus. Yes, Tanner seems to be demonstrating that he believes we don’t on the whole know Jesus (specifically questioning if Jesus knows us), and that’s fine. But when this flies off into tangential debates over baptism, OSAS, faith alone, etc…we move further and further from the point of this thread…which is to discuss the underlying rationale related to why people think Catholics are not fully aware of who Jesus is.

So Tanner…and anyone else here arguing specific doctrinal differences with Catholics…can we limit the posts to discussions of the specific reasons you find Catholics to be lacking in knowledge of Christ? Can we do this without losing ourselves in endless debates about this doctrine or that doctrine of the faith? I’m not saying that some doctrinal debate is not necessary in this sort of discussion…I just don’t think we should resort to completely losing the main thrust of the thread. There are plenty of threads where individual doctrines can be debated in this kind of depth.

Just an observation and request. If it makes more sense to everyone to keep pressing the doctrinal debates, then press on.

IDK, I think maybe some base whether catholics know Jesus on the way we relate to Baptism, OSAS and other faith doctrines of the catholic faith vs. other faith denominations.

For instance, it may be that someone is arguing that I don’t know Christ because I’m sprinkled (actually poured over) and not immersed.

Or, that because I believe that I *can *actually fall away from God in sin, I don’t know Christ.

Or, that because I say prayers that include the names of the Saints, I’m not really praying to God, but to the Saints themselves.

Or, that because I care about how I act *outwardly *as a Christian and not just by claiming I have *faith, *I don’t know Christ.

Yeah, your’e right. This really sounds stupid.

For the record, I think it’s not doctrine. But I won’t say what I think it is.

I think these beliefs are the way people evaluate another person’s relationship with Christ.

The thing is, I don’t think anyone should try to evaluate a person’s relationship with Christ unless they are clergy and they are asked to by the person.

But that’s just my 2 cents.

 

[Tanner9188]

Really? You are way wrong there Tanner, look at what the Lord actually says there. “32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.”

Here you are really messed up because at the very least it teaches loss of salvation, but even if you were right…it works against you in that it can easily be used to support the Catholic teaching of Purgatory. If, as you say, God chastises His wayward children, and we know that He does, then here is a prime example of that Purgatorial chastisement.
(Cont’d)

How can I be messed up; for it is the Word of God; not my word. You will have to let God know that He messed up because the “loosing of salvation” that is all of God and from God to the Son, cannot be messed up by an insubordinate sinner: can it?

The more you talk/post against the Word of God, the deeper the hole you dig for yourself, and Heaven forbid for anyone who might take notice of the assault on the truth of His Word and believe it.

Hebrews 12 -
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom {his} father does not discipline?

Titus 1 -
13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

1 Corinthians 5:1-6
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit,** with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh**, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump {of dough?}

Do you see what Paul just commanded in the Name and power of the Lord Jesus; this is by far the severest chastisement that can be dealt and still be saved. God does do this on occasion; certainly more than we know.

There is much more in Scripture that shows the rebuking and chastisement of God’s children.

If purgatory, the priesthood, the primacy of Peter, immaculate conception et al was really part of Scripture; don’t you believe that God would make it crystal clear? Think about the Levitical priesthood for example, wasn’t it real obvious that it existed and wasn’t it expressed in such detail and clarity; what they were to do and don’t do?

Catholics have to pull an obscure passage here and there, usually one, and on rare occasions two; always out of context to make something in Scripture that just is not supportable because it doesn’t exist. Then you have this vast body of writing to explain this obscurity into “Church” truth and explain away the oppositions reasonings from the plain and clear text of Scripture.

Catholics wonder why people don’t believe that most, not all, Catholics do not know Jesus; it is obvious because you hold fast to false doctrines and mystical non sense because of ignorance of the voice of God IMO.

May God bless the reading of His word and bless those hearts that truly seek to know You, but You have not opened their hearts yet; I ask Father that You will do it right now, according to Your will and Your purpose for their lives…amen.

 

[erikd]

How can I be messed up; for it is the Word of God; not my word. You will have to let God know that He messed up because the “loosing of salvation” that is all of God and from God to the Son, cannot be messed up by an insubordinate sinner: can it?

Christians of many denominations, as well as non-denominational Christians, firmly believe that once they have been saved, they are always saved. Several verses have been used to state this interpretation of Scripture. These verses include, but are not limited to the following:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 “I and My Father are one.”
John 10:27-30

38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38-39

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30

While these verses certainly stress the power of God and His plan of salvation, what do they say about us? Do they really state that we cannot lose salvation once we have been saved? Let’s look at the evidence.

One of the strongest verses above is “28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand” John 10:28. This statement, however, says absolutely nothing of our own ability to separate ourselves from God. Here is one view from St. John Chrysostom:

“As long as we are in the hand of God, “no one is able to pluck us out” (John x. 28), for that hand is strong; but when we fall away from that hand and that help, then are we lost, then are we exposed, ready to be snatched away, as a “bowing wall, and a tottering fence” surmount. Think not this which I am about to say refers to Jerusalem alone, but to all men.”
St. John Chrysostom, Homily 6 on Philippians.

Is it possible that we ourselves can separate ourselves from God? Overwhelmingly YES!!! The best evidence of this lies in the third chapter of Genesis where Adam and Eve separated themselves, and consequently all of us, from God. While God may provide us the protection of preventing outside interference of our love for God, it still remains our choice, as it was the choice for Adam and Eve. Is there evidence of this in the New Testament? Let’s take a look.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:22-23

If one cannot lose their salvation, St. Paul would certainly not speak of “grafting again” as it would not be necessary. In fact, St. Paul clearly shows that one can be “cut off” if one does not “continue in His goodness.”

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 2:20-22

Here, St. Peter speaks of the responsibility one has that comes with the knowledge of God. The sinner is compared to a dog returning to its vomit and is represented as one who “escaped the pollutions of the world” and then becomes “entangled in them and overcome.” It seems unlikely for St. Paul to speak of this if it was never meant to be an issue.

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:26-31

St. Paul, again, speaking of the responsibility of knowing the truth. Ones who do not live in the truth are described as “adversaries” who “trampled the Son of God underfoot.” It again seems unlikely that St. Paul would be explaining this if salvation were not at stake.

Continued on next post.

 

[erikd]

Continued from previous post.

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
Hebrews 10:35-37

In the last verse, St. Paul repeats the promises of Christ, while explaining the conditions of that promise. First he speaks of the confidence and endurance which has great rewards. In the next verse, St. Paul explains the conditions:

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:38-39

St. Paul indicates that it is, in fact, possible to “draw back” with which lie consequences. One other thing that should be clarified is what Christ thought of this issue:

23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
Matthew 7: 23-26

14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
John 15: 14

Jesus explains what true faith really is. He does not say to “accept Him in your heart” and He does not say that once you’ve accepted Him by doing what He asks you to do, your salvation is forever assured. Perhaps this next parable sums it up pretty well:

45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 "Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 "Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 "But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’
49 "and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 "and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24: 45-51

According to this parable, if we know what the Master’s will is, and we do not do the Master’s will when we think He is not looking, He will cut us in two and appoint us our portion with the hypocrites. There is a very important point being made here: If the servant does the will of the Master, then he has “accepted” the will of the Master. However, at some point the servant falls away from the Master. Once he is accepted, later he is cut in two and appointed what he does not want. If there’s any doubt as to what this is, please remember: There is no “weeping and gnashing of teeth” in heaven.

 

[Tanner9188]

Just because you cannot imagine it does not make it less so Tanner. Since when do you claim to know all that God does? I would agree though…again, from past experience…that such a person is not acting in the wisest way.
No! Really Tanner? Maybe you should look at the Gospel reading from today’s Mass. Gosh…we were just exhorted to be sure that we didn’t give empty lip service instead of a deep and full conversion of heart, taking up our crosses daily and following the Lord Jesus.

Unfortunately, you can’t seem to get past the interpretations that you have been taught and simply read what is there in the scripture.And I think you must have a fish in your ear because you are here telling me I don’t know something when the fact is that you are sitting there preaching an errant modern doctrine of men that has no basis in the Word of God or in the 2,000 years of authentic Christian teaching, but only the modern errors of some 500 years ago or less.

Actually and really it is more like 1700 years. Emperor Constantine around 310-315 A.D…
Before that everything was with a little “c”. After that, is where all the bizarre stuff like purgatory, immaculate conception, praying to the dead, Marilolgy etc.

 

[happilycatholic]

*“Catholics wonder why people don’t believe that most, not all, Catholics do not know Jesus; it is obvious because you hold fast to false doctrines and mystical non sense because of ignorance of the voice of God IMO.” *

And there you have it. We don’t know Christ because of our adherance to His doctrines.

How can you possibly argue with that?

 

[Tomster]

How can I be messed up; for it is the Word of God; not my word. You will have to let God know that He messed up because the “loosing of salvation” that is all of God and from God to the Son, cannot be messed up by an insubordinate sinner: can it?

The more you talk/post against the Word of God, the deeper the hole you dig for yourself, and Heaven forbid for anyone who might take notice of the assault on the truth of His Word and believe it.

Hebrews 12 -
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom {his} father does not discipline?

Titus 1 -
13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

1 Corinthians 5:1-6
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit,** with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh**, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump {of dough?}

Do you see what Paul just commanded in the Name and power of the Lord Jesus; this is by far the severest chastisement that can be dealt and still be saved. God does do this on occasion; certainly more than we know.

There is much more in Scripture that shows the rebuking and chastisement of God’s children.

If purgatory, the priesthood, the primacy of Peter, immaculate conception et al was really part of Scripture; don’t you believe that God would make it crystal clear? Think about the Levitical priesthood for example, wasn’t it real obvious that it existed and wasn’t it expressed in such detail and clarity; what they were to do and don’t do?

Catholics have to pull an obscure passage here and there, usually one, and on rare occasions two; always out of context to make something in Scripture that just is not supportable because it doesn’t exist. Then you have this vast body of writing to explain this obscurity into “Church” truth and explain away the oppositions reasonings from the plain and clear text of Scripture.

Catholics wonder why people don’t believe that most, not all, Catholics do not know Jesus; it is obvious because you hold fast to false doctrines and mystical non sense because of ignorance of the voice of God IMO.

May God bless the reading of His word and bless those hearts that truly seek to know You, but You have not opened their hearts yet; I ask Father that You will do it right now, according to Your will and Your purpose for their lives…amen.

It is indeed sad and tragic that fundamentalists who keep calling for the assurance of salvation and for a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will deny the greatest means the God-man gave us to have a personal relationship with Him - a necessary means for our salvation. "In all truth I tell you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will have no life in you’ (John 6:53). What could be more personal in a relationship than for Jesus to come into our very being with the entire substance of His Sacred Body, His precious Blood, and His Soul with His plenitude of divine life (Col 1:19; Col 2:9; Eph 3:19)?

 

[Tanner9188]

How do you know you came to him on his terms? Given you base you entire reltationship on your personal interpreation of scripture it appears you came to him on your terms.

Romans 8 -
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God

It is true; it is exactly as God has said. Perhaps you are lacking something?

 

[happilycatholic]

It is indeed sad and tragic that fundamentalists who keep calling for the assurance of salvation and for a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will deny the greatest means the God-man gave us to have a personal relationship with Him - a necessary means for our salvation. "In all truth I tell you, if you do eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will have no life in you’ (John 6:53). What could be more personal in a relationship than for Jesus to come into our very being with the entire substance of His Sacred Body, His precious Blood, and His Soul with His plenitude of divine life (Col 1:19; Col 2:9; Eph 3:19)?

Amen.

We are arguing with folks who willingly gave up the Most Precious Gift. Now they use it against us.

It makes me sad.

 

[Tomster]

How do you know you came to him on his terms? Given you base you entire reltationship on your personal interpreation of scripture it appears you came to him on your terms.

So true!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Oh, one of the “Constantine started the RC Church” crowd, eh? Pity that this is not supported by authentic history. The first prayer (written extant) to the Virgin Mary, the “Subtuum Praesidium” dates from AD 250. . .nearly 100 years before Constantine. . .so much for the charge of “Mariology” and the Immaculate Conception being post Constantine.

In the catacombs there are actual carvings (oh no! idols) and prayers written to people who died for the faith. The catacombs existed BEFORE Constantine allowed Catholicism to be practiced in the empire legally. SO–the ideas of purgatory and prayer to the saints existed well BEFORE Constantine. So much for the charges of these being ‘additions’ of ‘later’ Catholicism. . .

 

[Tomster]

Amen.

We are arguing with folks who willingly gave up the Most Precious Gift. Now they use it against us.

It makes me sad.

Indeed! They even call it “Mystical Nonsense” when the plain words of the Scripture contradicts their personal interpretation of it. I think they are lacking something or more explicitly Someone.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

We know that Scripture tells us that Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light in order to deceive. I pity the poor person who is sure that (relying only on his subjective individual ‘feeling’)“the Holy Spirit has spoken to me and told me the Church is wrong” because in all likelihood if there was ANY ‘spirit’ who spoke it is certainly not holy. . .

 

[Tomster]

How can I be messed up; for it is the Word of God; not my word. You will have to let God know that He messed up because the “loosing of salvation” that is all of God and from God to the Son, cannot be messed up by an insubordinate sinner: can it?

The more you talk/post against the Word of God, the deeper the hole you dig for yourself, and Heaven forbid for anyone who might take notice of the assault on the truth of His Word and believe it.

Hebrews 12 -
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom {his} father does not discipline?

Titus 1 -
13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

1 Corinthians 5:1-6
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit,** with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh**, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump {of dough?}

Do you see what Paul just commanded in the Name and power of the Lord Jesus; this is by far the severest chastisement that can be dealt and still be saved. God does do this on occasion; certainly more than we know.

There is much more in Scripture that shows the rebuking and chastisement of God’s children.

If purgatory, the priesthood, the primacy of Peter, immaculate conception et al was really part of Scripture; don’t you believe that God would make it crystal clear? Think about the Levitical priesthood for example, wasn’t it real obvious that it existed and wasn’t it expressed in such detail and clarity; what they were to do and don’t do?

Catholics have to pull an obscure passage here and there, usually one, and on rare occasions two; always out of context to make something in Scripture that just is not supportable because it doesn’t exist. Then you have this vast body of writing to explain this obscurity into “Church” truth and explain away the oppositions reasonings from the plain and clear text of Scripture.

Catholics wonder why people don’t believe that most, not all, Catholics do not know Jesus; it is obvious because you hold fast to false doctrines and mystical non sense because of ignorance of the voice of God IMO.

May God bless the reading of His word and bless those hearts that truly seek to know You, but You have not opened their hearts yet; I ask Father that You will do it right now, according to Your will and Your purpose for their lives…amen.

You asked the question, “How can I be messed up?” and then you tell us that we will have to tell God that He messed up. Wow, slow down Sola Tanner!

An “insubordinate sinner” can “mess up” and loose his salvation to answer your question.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Think about it, Tanner. You say you are sure Scripture says this and the Spirit says this --but your fellow Christians say differently --how can you be absolutely sure that what you heard was from the Holy Spirit? How can you be sure the Holy Spirit wasn’t speaking to those like me, and that you weren’t, however sincere, in error? Weren’t deceived? You say you have a personal experience with God? So do we. Scriptural basis? So do we. Openness to the Spirit? So do we. Obedience to the teachings? So do we. Good fruits? So do we. Assurance of truth? So do we.

But we differ diametrically. . .how are you SURE you are right? We can claim Scripture and its clarity that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth and that we are thereby assured that through this the Holy Spirit will guide us to all truth, and it will be a unity, one Church. . .again, all Scriptural.

You yourself must know that your fellow Protestants disagree with your interpretation of Scripture on several points. . .and these fellow Protestants, unlike us Catholics, do not claim Church authority but claim the very same personal assurance that you do–only they STILL differ from you. How is that possible?

Catholics may have individuals who dissent from the teachings (we know there will always be some who fall) but the teachings themselves don’t change.

Protestant teachings DO change. Yes, Scriptural teachings.

Prior to 1930, all Protestants taught that Scripture forbade contraception. In 1930 the Anglican Lambeth conference authorized contraception in certain ‘limited cases’. Within a generation, nearly all Protestants not only permitted those limited cases but had ‘miraculously’ found that Scripture ‘no longer’ appeared to condemn contraception. . .or divorce. . .or even homosexuality. Hmmm. . .clear Scripture suddenly reversed itself to Protestants. . .

 

[Tomster]

Think about it, Tanner. You say you are sure Scripture says this and the Spirit says this --but your fellow Christians say differently --how can you be absolutely sure that what you heard was from the Holy Spirit? How can you be sure the Holy Spirit wasn’t speaking to those like me, and that you weren’t, however sincere, in error? Weren’t deceived? You say you have a personal experience with God? So do we. Scriptural basis? So do we. Openness to the Spirit? So do we. Obedience to the teachings? So do we. Good fruits? So do we. Assurance of truth? So do we.

But we differ diametrically. . .how are you SURE you are right? We can claim Scripture and its clarity that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth and that we are thereby assured that through this the Holy Spirit will guide us to all truth, and it will be a unity, one Church. . .again, all Scriptural.

You yourself must know that your fellow Protestants disagree with your interpretation of Scripture on several points. . .and these fellow Protestants, unlike us Catholics, do not claim Church authority but claim the very same personal assurance that you do–only they STILL differ from you. How is that possible?

Catholics may have individuals who dissent from the teachings (we know there will always be some who fall) but the teachings themselves don’t change.

Protestant teachings DO change. Yes, Scriptural teachings.

Prior to 1930, all Protestants taught that Scripture forbade contraception. In 1930 the Anglican Lambeth conference authorized contraception in certain ‘limited cases’. Within a generation, nearly all Protestants not only permitted those limited cases but had ‘miraculously’ found that Scripture ‘no longer’ appeared to condemn contraception. . .or divorce. . .or even homosexuality. Hmmm. . .clear Scripture suddenly reversed itself to Protestants. . .

Well said and I agree with you.

However, some Fundamenatlists do not consider themselves Protestants. Their movement, and that’s all it is, a movement, began when certain Protestants rejected the doctrinal liberalism within their own differing sects and formed what has come to be a sub-sect of Protestantism. It is clear from their own history that the farther away you get from Rome, the more individual popes start popping up. They have real authority issues which forces each individual fundamentalist to regard his own personal interpretation as “Spirit-led” and “authoritative.” It has to be this way with them. They have no other place to go.

 

[Tomster]

How can I be messed up; for it is the Word of God; not my word. You will have to let God know that He messed up because the “loosing of salvation” that is all of God and from God to the Son, cannot be messed up by an insubordinate sinner: can it?

The more you talk/post against the Word of God, the deeper the hole you dig for yourself, and Heaven forbid for anyone who might take notice of the assault on the truth of His Word and believe it.

Hebrews 12 -
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom {his} father does not discipline?

Titus 1 -
13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

1 Corinthians 5:1-6
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit,** with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh**, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump {of dough?}

Do you see what Paul just commanded in the Name and power of the Lord Jesus; this is by far the severest chastisement that can be dealt and still be saved. God does do this on occasion; certainly more than we know.

There is much more in Scripture that shows the rebuking and chastisement of God’s children.

If purgatory, the priesthood, the primacy of Peter, immaculate conception et al was really part of Scripture; don’t you believe that God would make it crystal clear? Think about the Levitical priesthood for example, wasn’t it real obvious that it existed and wasn’t it expressed in such detail and clarity; what they were to do and don’t do?

Catholics have to pull an obscure passage here and there, usually one, and on rare occasions two; always out of context to make something in Scripture that just is not supportable because it doesn’t exist. Then you have this vast body of writing to explain this obscurity into “Church” truth and explain away the oppositions reasonings from the plain and clear text of Scripture.

Catholics wonder why people don’t believe that most, not all, Catholics do not know Jesus; it is obvious because you hold fast to false doctrines and mystical non sense because of ignorance of the voice of God IMO.

May God bless the reading of His word and bless those hearts that truly seek to know You, but You have not opened their hearts yet; I ask Father that You will do it right now, according to Your will and Your purpose for their lives…amen.

Did you come up with this all by yourself? Or, did your man in the pool-pit pass this on to you giving you his own personal, extra-biblical oral tradition? Or have you just been reading Lorraine Boettner again?

Please tell us. Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[josie_L]

I posted this earlier, can you please answer it?

Tanner I’m curious but where do you go every sunday for “communion” services? And do you really think that the apostles (and their successors) were advocating a “church” of believers with no religious cohesiveness by implying that each individual should come to terms with God without the help of those appointed authorities in the Church, i.e., the apostles?

May God bless you and reveal to you what He demands and may He call you