**Well gee Tanner…let’s have a look at what the Word of God actually says.
John 3:3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and theHoly Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Truly pre-Christian here as you erroneously noted below/earlier, then confirmed my point by answering the next question.
Nicodemus would have no idea what “water baptism” was; so we
KNOW it can’t be that and it says nothing about baptism; just because you see water somewhere doesn’t necessarily mean water baptism. The young Christian would understand that as well; based on the sheer amount of posts you have; shouldn’t you have put more time into this passage to dig a little deeper to see what in the world Nicodemus would have thought?
In order to understand this passage, we must first get into the Jewish mind; Jesus was not trying to trick him. Therefore Jesus knew what He would have thought of and you can tell by his response; it was a bit of sarcasm or skepticism, which we do not see too much in Scripture. Nicodemus knows that Jesus is telling him He must start all over; forget what you think you know and start with a clean slate; keep in mind He was a well respected ruler in the Jewish community. Notice Jesus does not correct him about the mother in the womb because they understood it was beginning everything all over again, “forget what you know and listen to Me.” Also worth noting are the importance of the Holy Spirit, the true saving baptism, and the contrast between the spirit versus the flesh; similar to John 6:63 and other places in the NT.
So at this point we know it cannot be water Baptism; so what is this born of water refers to? We have to go back to the OT, a natural thing to do since this is a Jewish leader, and see what the Scripture tells us about this. Before we go there, we must also keep in view what I know to be true; 1) God saves the same way in the OT as the NT; He cannot change this attribute and 2) that salvation is based on grace, through faith in God, but before anyone is accepted by God; they must have a heart of repentance to get to the point where they know nothing good is in oneself in his sight and they need to be cleansed from what? The stain of sin. All Catholics agree? Are you ready; here we go into the OT.
Ezekiel 36:22-27 22 …`Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations… 23 “I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25
"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 6 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Try not to get carried away; there it is the water thing; must be baptism except it is just a sprinkle.
“clean” = tahowr & taher ;
to be clean ceremonially, to purify, be clean morally, made clean
“Sprinkle” = zaraq; to scatter, sprinkle, toss, throw, scatter abundantly, strew (usage NAS;(35) - scatter, 2; scattered, 1; sprinkle, 13; sprinkled, 15; sprinkles, 1; threw, 2; throw, 1)
Lets dig deeper and see if there is some type of ceremonial cleansing with water that may have come into Nicodemus’s mind; what is your guess? In the OT, when water is used in a figurative sense; especially in conjunction with “spirit”, it almost always refers to a renewing or spiritual cleansing.
Numbers 19:16-19
16 'Also, anyone who in the open field touches one who has been slain with a sword or who has died {naturally,} or a human bone or a grave, shall be unclean for seven days. 17 'Then for the unclean {person} they shall take some of the ashes of the burnt purification from sin and flowing water shall be added to them in a vessel. 18 'A clean person shall
take hyssop and dip {it} in the water, and sprinkle {it} on the tent and on all the furnishings and on the persons who were there, and on the one who touched the bone or the one slain or the one dying {naturally} or the grave. 19 **'Then the clean {person} shall sprinkle on the unclean on the third day and on the seventh day; and on the seventh day he shall purify him from uncleanness, and he shall wash his clothes and bathe {himself} in water and shall be clean by evening. **
Psalm 51:7-11
7
Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness, Let the bones which You have broken rejoice. 9 Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities. 10
Create in me a clean heart, O God, And
renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Isaiah 55:1-3
1 "Ho! Every** one who thirsts, come to the waters**;… Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost. 2 **"Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? **Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance. 3
"Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, {According to} the faithful mercies shown to David
Summary:
“born” = gennaō; in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone, of God making Christ his son, of God making men his sons through faith in Christ’s work
Paraphrasing verse 5: "Unless one is cleansed from His sins (Justification) and receives the Holy Spirit (sealed by the Spirit “baptism”) he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
CONTINUED NEXT POST
I tried that for over 35 years outside of the Church, and talk about wandering in the desert! :whacky: My Testimony
and
This only compounds the error.