Why do some people think that Science is the only source of knowledge?

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Newton successfully wrote the law of gravitation as an inverse square of separation law because that is how reality happens. Bodies of matter react with one another in the way that they do, not because of Newton. He did not and could not explain the ‘what and why’ of gravity or the nature of mass independently of the relationship that he observed. What he did was to recognize the fundamental generality of matter in motion and described it mathematically. He was able to do this only because that is the way objective reality is; whether or not it can be any other way is another matter. **I am of the implicate view that objective reality is quite different from what we experience and science describes at the explicate view.**
Yppop
Forgive my intrusion – and feel free to correct me if I am presenting a mistaken interpretation – but (perhaps) an analogy for what you are saying above is that science concerns itself, almost myopically, with the objective “words on a page” and their relationship with each other but completely ignores or dismisses the “intentional” possibilities behind the words. In this sense, science develops a very literalist interpretation of the physical world, which may be a hindrance in terms of understanding what is really going on around us.
 
…]However, a large amount of knowledge that doesn’t predict anything is called “science”.
Quite true. Some knowledge assist in predictions, some knowledge assist in explaining/inferring past events, and some knowledge is incomplete and does not yet have much utility (if any).
That doesn’t bother me because I ascribe to the idea of accepting the most plausible explanation. In the mean time science is influenced by philosophy, namely:

Positivism,…]

…]rejects as meaningless any explanation not verifiable through the senses;
That one catches my attention. I personally don’t think that information not verifiable through the senses to be meaningless. It can certainly have a lot of meaning to a person involved. But that type of information can be incredibly difficult to convey. For example, if some one has an experienced that was caused by some drug (note: I am not advocating the use of prescribed drugs) it may be near to impossible to communicate that experience to some one else. The person may have no way of knowing what it was like for some other person to experience a certain drug. Some one that experiences synesthesia may not be able to get some one that doesn’t experience it to understand their experience and sensations. Such information may be less portable to some one else that doesn’t have similar experience that could be used as points of relation.
I am of the implicate view that objective reality is quite different from what we experience and science describes at the explicate view.
I think there are many people that share this view. It seems to be similar to what is also labeled as the “egocentric predicament.” This position at times may encapsulate that concept that material substance as we “know” it does not exists.
 
Your assumption that persons are merely biological organisms
I asked:
On what is rationalism based?
in reply to your statement:
Rational thought is a product of the brain
which implies that the mind is superfluous.

You added:
No but if the guitarists brain gets damaged he won’t be making anymore music.
as if the mind ceases to exist at death.

Where does the mind comes in if thought is just a product of the brain?
 
Your points above again demonstrate that you could benefit from some basic courses in philosophy and logic.
Perhaps your courses omitted to tell you that ad hominem is a fallacy, and that incessant ad hominems are more not less so.
The fact that nominative philosophers have failed, in the past, to do philosophy well (which is a debatable point that I am far from conceding) does not argue against the enterprise of philosophy itself.
If it’s a fact that it’s never been mastered then I rest my case, thanks for pointing that out.
*Neither did scientists imagine the reality of quantum mechanics, they had to discover it. That just points out the limitations of human beings in general, not just philosophers. Reality is far more complex than any human could imagine. Great! However, that point does not argue against philosophy itself just as the failure of scientists to imagine the reality beforehand doesn’t argue against the enterprise of science, itself. *
The truth can only be discovered, it can hardly be invented can it?
On the other hand, scientists who made headway in QM relied on logical principles and made inferences about where the evidence pointed in order to uncover the reality of quantum mechanics. In short, they were doing philosophy and would have gone nowhere without doing it minimally well.
So every time anyone looks both ways and decides it’s safe to cross the road, they are doing philosophy. I love the way everything gets claimed as philosophy!
In order to move forward, good science relies upon good philosophy. The premises are provided by science, but the implications, plausible inferences and conclusions, to be validly true, must adhere to principles of logic, philosophy and reason. To throw out the enterprise of philosophy is to throw out the means by which science makes progress. The fact that you don’t get that shows, quite clearly, that you have a very limited view of both science and philosophy.
The fact that so many of your arguments end in ad hominem shows, quite clearly, something I’ll leave you to work out for yourself.
Philosophy, far from being an ashtray on a motorcycle, is actually the means by which the possible routes the motorcyclist could take are plotted. Without philosophy the motorcyclist would remain stationary and have no idea where to go, ashtray or not.
You’re either arguing that map-making is a branch of philosophy or that philosophy is part of the driving test. Would a five year old with her tricycle remain stationary and have no idea where to go without philosophy, or didn’t you see that one coming? :rolleyes:
 
What is gravity? Is it “action at a distance”, a gravitational force?, a gravitational field? a bending of space? or is it the exchange of gravitons? Are you sure that “gravity” is not merely an abstraction that man devised to explain at an explicate level that which God created at the implicate level? Might there not be a better way of explaining, at the ground of reality, what appears to be the mutual attraction of 2 bodies of matter? (And I say 2 bodies, because none of the explanations I mention above explain a situation when 3 or more bodies are involved).
Isaac Newton and Descartes already had that argument. Newton insisted on empirical evidence alone and refused point blank the idea that there should be a reason for or purpose to gravity. Newton saw that things can be explained and progress made without having to know why gravity exists or what it is, and without even stopping to ask. I’m no historian but maybe he was the first to put that profound idea on paper:

In this philosophy particular propositions are inferred from the phenomena, and afterwards rendered general by induction. Thus it was that the impenetrability, the mobility, and the impulsive force of bodies, and the laws of motion and of gravitation, were discovered. And to us it is enough, that gravity does really exist, and act according to the laws which we have explained, and abundantly serves to account for all the motions of the celestial bodies, and of our sea.

isaacnewton.ca/gen_scholium/scholium.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Scholium
Or, are we (science) stuck with a philosophy (logical positivism) that restricts truth to that which can be observed/measured and verified by repetition? Yes, philosophy does have an impact on how science proceeds: in addition to the general approach devised by logical positivism, scientists are strongly influence by Kuhn’s paradigmatic thinking, and Popper’s falsification criterion.
Logical positivism fell out of favor some time back. “I suppose the most important [defect]…was that nearly all of it was false.” - A. J. Ayer

I don’t think Popper invented falsification, rather in wanting to explain why science makes progress he put into words what he observed scientists already doing. Very scientific of him. 🙂
Your two examples are 5% science and 95 % technology and there is a philosophical difference between those two appoaches. Science is analytical; technology is heuristic. And if you don’t know the difference between those two “philosophical” approaches you don’t understand just how overrated science is in the advancement of human well-being.
Not sure why you think scientists at CERN are doing applications rather than basic research, and while the main purpose of Apollo was political, it too was pure research. The fact that in both cases technology had to be developed to do the science doesn’t somehow stop them being science.
Since nothing associated with plate tectonics can be verified it is not very pure science; it lays claim to its scientific identification through its plausibility, a way of explaining an observation that is closer to philosophy than science.
Evidence for plate tectonics.
The moon landing was virtually pure technology. Can you cite the contribution of science to that great adventure?
Aside from the physical science, the advances in computing enabled a whole range of basic research previously impossible, and the advances in space technology enabled Hubble, etc. Also the inspiration it gave to the many kids who chose science for their career. But big projects have unexpected benefits and I would say maybe that photo of Earthrise from the Moon which for the first time gave people a vivid understanding of the value of the environmental sciences by showing how small and fragile our planet is.


nasa.gov/vision/earth/features/bm_gallery_4.html
 
I asked:

in reply to your statement:
which implies that the mind is superfluous.

You added:

as if the mind ceases to exist at death.

Where does the mind comes in if thought is just a product of the brain?
We all make assumptions that go wrong. The question you list was just one of many annoying questions you made with no point, but it was not the first question you made. You started that obnoxiousness well before that question. I wonder what else you assumed.

I answered your analogy to show that it was broken.

There is some part of us that carries on after death, a soul, the details of which I do not know. Do you?

You ask where does the mind come in, I assume you mean the soul. I don’t know. I have seen the dead, they have a mind, but how the mind of that soul works in the body I do not know. Do you?
 
So every time anyone looks both ways and decides it’s safe to cross the road, they are doing philosophy. I love the way everything gets claimed as philosophy!

You’re either arguing that map-making is a branch of philosophy or that philosophy is part of the driving test. Would a five year old with her tricycle remain stationary and have no idea where to go without philosophy, or didn’t you see that one coming? :rolleyes:
The five year old has no idea where to go without thinking. Philosophy is merely formalized thinking, just as science is a formalized method for analyzing experiences.

Perhaps you didn’t see that one coming?
 
We all make assumptions that go wrong. The question you list was just one of many annoying questions you made with no point, but it was not the first question you made. You started that obnoxiousness well before that question. I wonder what else you assumed.

I answered your analogy to show that it was broken.

There is some part of us that carries on after death, a soul, the details of which I do not know. Do you?

You ask where does the mind come in, I assume you mean the soul. I don’t know. I have seen the dead, they have a mind, but how the mind of that soul works in the body I do not know. Do you?
There is point in trying any further to have a rational discussion with a person who is inconsistent as well as discourteous…
 
There is point in trying any further to have a rational discussion with a person who is inconsistent as well as discourteous…
I started with a rational discussion. You pursued your false assumptions, not through ration, but instead through a series of pointless and obnoxious questions over a point we agree on.

I gave you the courtesy of a final warning before I put you on ignore. Perhaps if you had shown the courtesy of making a point we would not be here right now with my finger on the ignore button. Perhaps if you had decided to behave properly form the start and make a point I could have responded and showed you that your assumption of what I believed was wrong.
 
Logical positivism fell out of favor some time back. “I suppose the most important [defect]…was that nearly all of it was false.” - A. J. Ayer
Logical positivism as developed by the Vienna Circle is still the basic philosophical principle of modern science, whether or not it “fell out of favor” or A. J. Ayers thought “nearly all false”. Look at the 4 philosophical principles I listed in post 176 and tell me which of them you think modern science does not follow. The scientific principles the V.C. developed were derived from their verification principle, which Ayers heartily endorsed.

“For the English-speaking world, A. J. Ayers, in his brilliantly lucid and powerfully argued book Language, Truth and Logic (1936) did, as he later said with considerable understatement, 'something to popularize what may be called the classic position of the Vienna Circle”. Socrates to Sartre, the History of Philosophy, Samuel Stumpf.

The position he is referring to is the blanket rejection of metaphysics, which was to be found in the Vienna Circle’s famous verification principle. Whatever “fall from favor” logical positivism experience had to do more with their language theses, not the philosophical principles by which modern science still operates. Perhaps you could enlighten me on what Ayers was alluding to with the quote you used.
I don’t think Popper invented falsification, rather in wanting to explain why science makes progress he put into words what he observed scientists already doing. Very scientific of him
.Popper invented falsification as the criterion for verifying whether or not a hypothesis and theory is science and this is the falsification that I am referring to. Falsification has become the main method of the verification part of the scientific method.
Not sure why you think scientists at CERN are doing applications rather than basic research, and while the main purpose of Apollo was political, it too was pure research. The fact that in both cases technology had to be developed to do the science doesn’t somehow stop them being science.
.The vast majority of the work at Cern went into the construction of the hadron collider; that to me is technology even if it is scientists doing the work. Science is the planning of the experiments and the analysis of the results. My guess: the ratio of T/S is 95/5.
Aside from the physical science, the advances in computing enabled a whole range of basic research previously impossible, and the advances in space technology enabled Hubble, etc. Also the inspiration it gave to the many kids who chose science for their career. But big projects have unexpected benefits and I would say maybe that photo of Earthrise from the Moon which for the first time gave people a vivid understanding of the value of the environmental sciences by showing how small and fragile our planet is.
Computer science (a misnomer) is taught in math departments not in the science department. The basic theory of computers was developed by logicians (Boole), and mathematicians (Turing, Newman). Apollo was inspiring, but was more of a technology project than a science project as you yourself mentioned with referring to “space technology”. It is technology that allows science to progress; my complaint is that "SCIENCE’ takes all the credit.

Apparently, before we go any further with this discussion, we should agree on a definition of science and technology. Otherwise any further discussion would be meaningless.

Yppop
 
Forgive my intrusion – and feel free to correct me if I am presenting a mistaken interpretation – but (perhaps) an analogy for what you are saying above is that science concerns itself, almost myopically, with the objective “words on a page” and their relationship with each other but completely ignores or dismisses the “intentional” possibilities behind the words. In this sense, science develops a very literalist interpretation of the physical world, which may be a hindrance in terms of understanding what is really going on around us.
Peter
Sorry for the delay in responding, I wanted to give your “analogy” some thought. I found your last two sentences very interesting. If they mean what I interpreted to mean; they are more than an analogy; they are a very succinct and clever way of stating what I believe the scientific view of reality to be. My interpretation of your post, of course, is a reflection of my own thinking about the scientific view of the nature of reality. Which briefly is:

I believe that the reality we experience and that science describes is merely a manifestation of a deeper level that is beyond reach of science but can be described metaphysically. I refer to science as the explicate view and the deeper reality as an implicate view. Furthermore I believe that science is created not so much with a “method” but rather on the basis of three principles: a philosophical principal (logical positivism); a general principal (abstraction); and a foundational principal (mathematical formulation).

I interpret your “words on a paper” the scientific use of abstraction; thus “energy” becomes an “E” in an equation, symbols whose meaning is defined by a mathematical formulation that describes “their relationship with each other”. And in this sense, science “develops a very literalist interpretation of the physical world” (an explicate view) which may be a hindrance in terms of understanding what is really going on around us (an implicate view)…

I hope I am on the right track.

Yppop
 
Logical positivism as developed by the Vienna Circle is still the basic philosophical principle of modern science, whether or not it “fell out of favor” or A. J. Ayers thought “nearly all false”. Look at the 4 philosophical principles I listed in post 176 and tell me which of them you think modern science does not follow. The scientific principles the V.C. developed were derived from their verification principle, which Ayers heartily endorsed.

“For the English-speaking world, A. J. Ayers, in his brilliantly lucid and powerfully argued book Language, Truth and Logic (1936) did, as he later said with considerable understatement, 'something to popularize what may be called the classic position of the Vienna Circle”. Socrates to Sartre, the History of Philosophy, Samuel Stumpf.

The position he is referring to is the blanket rejection of metaphysics, which was to be found in the Vienna Circle’s famous verification principle. Whatever “fall from favor” logical positivism experience had to do more with their language theses, not the philosophical principles by which modern science still operates. Perhaps you could enlighten me on what Ayers was alluding to with the quote you used.
The quote is from the article I linked - go to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism#Criticisms which summarizes the various criticisms of logical positivism. Scroll down to the last paragraph “Contemporary status within philosophy” for the quote. I think he was speaking of his Language, Truth and Logic when he was older.
Popper invented falsification as the criterion for verifying whether or not a hypothesis and theory is science and this is the falsification that I am referring to. Falsification has become the main method of the verification part of the scientific method.
Yes, but my impression is that Popper put into words what he saw, and this approach was not esteemed by “professional” philosophers, for instance: “Sir Karl Popper is not really a participant in the contemporary professional philosophical dialogue; quite the contrary, he has ruined that dialogue. If he is on the right track, then the majority of professional philosophers the world over have wasted or are wasting their intellectual careers. The gulf between Popper’s way of doing philosophy and that of the bulk of contemporary professional philosophers is as great as that between astronomy and astrology.” - W. W. Bartley
The vast majority of the work at Cern went into the construction of the hadron collider; that to me is technology even if it is scientists doing the work. Science is the planning of the experiments and the analysis of the results. My guess: the ratio of T/S is 95/5.
Newton ground his own mirrors, there isn’t much choice if you need equipment that doesn’t exist.
*Computer science (a misnomer) is taught in math departments not in the science department. The basic theory of computers was developed by logicians (Boole), and mathematicians (Turing, Newman). Apollo was inspiring, but was more of a technology project than a science project as you yourself mentioned with referring to “space technology”. It is technology that allows science to progress; my complaint is that "SCIENCE’ takes all the credit.
Apparently, before we go any further with this discussion, we should agree on a definition of science and technology. Otherwise any further discussion would be meaningless. *
I’d say the difference is that science studies the world to gain knowledge, while technology applies that knowledge for practical purposes. However I’d have thought that while they probably sit at separate tables in the restaurant at CalTech or MIT, there’s a continuum running from fundamental science through applied science to engineering.
 
Forgive my intrusion – and feel free to correct me if I am presenting a mistaken interpretation – but (perhaps) an analogy for what you are saying above is that science concerns itself, almost myopically, with the objective “words on a page” and their relationship with each other but completely ignores or dismisses the “intentional” possibilities behind the words. In this sense, science develops a very literalist interpretation of the physical world, which may be a hindrance in terms of understanding what is really going on around us.
The ultimate arbiter of truth is experiment, not the comfort one derives from one’s a priori beliefs, nor the beauty or elegance one ascribes to one’s theoretical models. - Lawrence M. Krauss

There must be a means to separate objective from subjective, or any understanding is on shifting sands, as demonstrated amply by the hundreds of incompatible philosophical -isms.
 
inocente
**
There must be a means to separate objective from subjective, or any understanding is on shifting sands, as demonstrated amply by the hundreds of incompatible philosophical -isms. **

Agreed. All the incompatible philosophical isms of the world suffer very much the same fate as all those incompatible Protestant isms.

In either case, Reason, the ancient means by which to separate the objective from the subjective, is helpless to succeed at a certain point. But the same is true of science. There is a great deal of subjective science going on in the world, and this is conceded by the fact that science itself knows that on every plateau of knowledge sooner or later it is going to run into new knowledge that contradicts in one way or another older knowledge once thought to be objective…
 
]The ultimate arbiter of truth is experiment, not the comfort one derives from one’s a priori beliefs, nor the beauty or elegance one ascribes to one’s theoretical models. - Lawrence M. Krauss
There must be a means to separate objective from subjective, or any understanding is on shifting sands, as demonstrated amply by the hundreds of incompatible philosophical -isms.

Is this statement provable?
 
The ultimate arbiter of truth is experiment, not the comfort one derives from one’s a priori beliefs, nor the beauty or elegance one ascribes to one’s theoretical models. - Lawrence M. Krauss
Actually, the ultimate arbiter of truth has to be subjective in nature because purely objective entities or processes cannot arbitrate among or between anything.

Experiment relies upon the subjective experimenter to determine the conditions and variables and then the interpretation that follows. Ultimately, your view relies upon the assumption that “objective” reality is only objective and nothing more.

Using a literalist interpretation of text, as a parallel or analogy, your “objective” approach rules out a priori that there is anything more than a literal level contained in the narrative. The problem is that this approach becomes self-fulfilling and self-authenticating if the narrative is consistent at a literal level.

In the case of science, “objective” means objective to the observing subject, which, is still an aspect of the observer’s subjective viewpoint. The observer has merely convinced themselves that their inherently subjective viewpoint actually “gives way” to an objective one, which is not necessarily the case.

A literalist who is reading Shakespeare can still make sense of the words taken at their most basic literal level and they may find all kinds of confirmation from the text of the adequacy of this level of interpretation, but that is a kind of “blindness” to what is really going on in the narrative at other more symbolic levels.

In order to correct this blindness, it is necessary to demonstrate, first, that words can have multiple meanings and that the most basic meaning of any word is not the only possible one.
This may, very well, be true of natural phenomena. Yet, like the literalist, it could be difficult to convince someone who has worked out a coherent “literalist” interpretation of nature, that, while this interpretation is consistent with the facts it is only a “limited” view of the complete narrative.
There must be a means to separate objective from subjective, or any understanding is on shifting sands, as demonstrated amply by the hundreds of incompatible philosophical -isms.
Your statement assumes that the term “objective” has some meaning apart from the subjective observer. That may, in fact, be delusional. It is not clear, at least not to me, that “objective” has any such “external” reality. Meaning may, ultimately, only be subjectively possible and depicting some imagined external material reality as necessarily “objective” may be setting up a false dichotomy, one which the “facts” support, but taking too literalist a view of the “facts” may serve to mask out more important realities represented in the facts.
 
Agreed. All the incompatible philosophical isms of the world suffer very much the same fate as all those incompatible Protestant isms.

In either case, Reason, the ancient means by which to separate the objective from the subjective, is helpless to succeed at a certain point. But the same is true of science. There is a great deal of subjective science going on in the world, and this is conceded by the fact that science itself knows that on every plateau of knowledge sooner or later it is going to run into new knowledge that contradicts in one way or another older knowledge once thought to be objective…
Leaving aside your attempt to bring in sectarianism (yet another of those incompatible philosophical -isms), a law doesn’t magically stop giving correct predictions. Newton’s theory of gravity is not contradicted by Einstein’s, it still gives the correct predictions but in what we now know are more limited conditions. This isn’t a negative, it’s a profound benefit.

Philosophers who interpreted Newton as proving a clockwork universe were contradicted big-time by philosophers who interpreted quantum theory as proving something else entirely, but there you go, that’s philosophers for you.
 
Leaving aside your attempt to bring in sectarianism (yet another of those incompatible philosophical -isms), a law doesn’t magically stop giving correct predictions. Newton’s theory of gravity is not contradicted by Einstein’s, it still gives the correct predictions but in what we now know are more limited conditions. This isn’t a negative, it’s a profound benefit.

Philosophers who interpreted Newton as proving a clockwork universe were contradicted big-time by philosophers who interpreted quantum theory as proving something else entirely, but there you go, that’s philosophers for you.
And there you go again philosophizing about philosophy, i.e., using (or at least attempting to use) philosophy to debunk philosophy. In philosophy, that is called a self-contradiction because you are contradicting your own claim - you are using a philosophical argument to demonstrate what you claim is the apparent uselessness of philosophical arguments.

If you don’t think truth can be arrived at by reason and logic, then stop trying to use reason and logic to convince others of the futility of reason and logic.
 
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