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Snow
Guest
Well that’s demonstrably untrue:
Luke 1:15
NAS: and he will drink no wine or liquor,
NIV: He is never to take wine or other fermented drink,
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Luke 1:15
NAS: and he will drink no wine or liquor,
NIV: He is never to take wine or other fermented drink,
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mark_a
Guest
This is very reasonable and sensible.
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Walden
Guest
I missed that…I was looking for references to Jesus. Gabriel was speaking to Zacharias here. His wife, Elizabeth, gave birth to John the Baptist.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
The wine of Passover is a very big deal, historically. I have been told, although I have never actually checked it out, that even today charities are established within the Jewish community to be sure that everyone has their Passover wine. It’s not grape juice. This practice has been rather firmly established over several thousands of years of Passover celebration.
The Passover over which Jesus presided at the Last Supper was just such a Passover seder. He didn’t use grape juice, He used wine, as was the established custom. He also changed other aspects of the celebration of Passover that are not pertinent to the topic of this thread, but are very important to the subject of the Eucharist. That’s an entirely different discussion. Suffice it to say that those who seek to substitute other elements for wine as part of some Eucharistic celebration do so inaccurately, but then, so far as I know, all of them do so “symbolically” anyway so why does it matter? They’re already substituting like crazy, so why not substitute something else for the wine?
The Passover over which Jesus presided at the Last Supper was just such a Passover seder. He didn’t use grape juice, He used wine, as was the established custom. He also changed other aspects of the celebration of Passover that are not pertinent to the topic of this thread, but are very important to the subject of the Eucharist. That’s an entirely different discussion. Suffice it to say that those who seek to substitute other elements for wine as part of some Eucharistic celebration do so inaccurately, but then, so far as I know, all of them do so “symbolically” anyway so why does it matter? They’re already substituting like crazy, so why not substitute something else for the wine?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
As with anything, it’s all about moderation.
**Gen 27:25 Then he said: Bring me the meats of thy hunting, my son, that my soul may bless thee. And when they were brought, and he had eaten, he offered him wine also, which after he had drunk,
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, that his name may be called upon therein, the tithe of thy corn, and thy wine, and thy oil, and the firstborn of thy herds and thy sheep: that thou mayst learn to fear the Lord thy God at all times.
Deu 14:24 But when the way and the place which the Lord thy God shall choose, are far off, and he hath blessed thee, and thou canst not carry all these things thither,
Deu 14:25 Thou shalt sell them all, and turn them into money, and shalt carry it in thy hand, and shalt go to the place which the Lord shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt buy with the same money whatsoever pleaseth thee, either of the herds or of sheep, wine also and strong drink, and all that thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, and shalt feast, thou and thy house:
Pro 20:1 Wine is a luxurious thing, and drunkenness riotous: whosoever is delighted therewith, shall not be wise.
Ecc 9:7 Go then, and eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with gladness: because thy works please God.
Isa 25:6 And the Lord of hosts shall make unto all people in this mountain, a feast of fat things, a feast of wine, of fat things full of marrow, of wine purified from the lees.
Isa 5:11 Woe to you that rise up early in the morning to follow drunkenness, and to drink in the evening, to be inflamed with wine.
Isa 5:22 Woe to you that are mighty to drink wine, and stout men at drunkenness.
Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine. And you say: He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking. And you say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a drinker of wine, a friend of publicans and sinners.
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is luxury: but be ye filled with the Holy Spirit,
1Ti 5:23 Do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thy frequent infirmities.
**
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sarah_anne_628
Guest
Conerning wine vs. grape juice in Communion:
I heard an evangelical (non denominational) pastor explain it this way:
In Biblical times, the word “wine” was used for actual wine and the non-alcholic version-grape juice. So seeing wine in the Bible could mean either.
For the original Passover, the Hebrews were instructed to remove all yeast from their home. Wine (in the alcoholic sense) contains yeast.
I don’t know anything about wine or alcohol (other than I think I accidently made vodka by not doing dishes in a timely manner and having fermenting potatoes in my sink…ewwww)
Concerning the alleged “ban” of alcohol:
The Protestant/Evangelical circles that I ran around in awknowledged that in Jesus’ day, drinking wine/alcohol occured, even by Jesus himself. The issue with alcohol in modern American society is with appearances and perceptions. It is considered “not Christian” by most in our society and to see Christians drinking could undermine the credibility of Christians to non-believers. Very often, a Christian will be labeled a hypocrite if he is seen drinking alcohol and this could undermine their evanelizing efforts.
Furthermore, considering alcoholism, binge drinking, drunk driving and other evils that come with abuses of alcohol, the evangelical thinks that their drinking could be a stumbling block for someone else who has trouble with alcohol abuse.
I heard an evangelical (non denominational) pastor explain it this way:
In Biblical times, the word “wine” was used for actual wine and the non-alcholic version-grape juice. So seeing wine in the Bible could mean either.
For the original Passover, the Hebrews were instructed to remove all yeast from their home. Wine (in the alcoholic sense) contains yeast.
I don’t know anything about wine or alcohol (other than I think I accidently made vodka by not doing dishes in a timely manner and having fermenting potatoes in my sink…ewwww)
Concerning the alleged “ban” of alcohol:
The Protestant/Evangelical circles that I ran around in awknowledged that in Jesus’ day, drinking wine/alcohol occured, even by Jesus himself. The issue with alcohol in modern American society is with appearances and perceptions. It is considered “not Christian” by most in our society and to see Christians drinking could undermine the credibility of Christians to non-believers. Very often, a Christian will be labeled a hypocrite if he is seen drinking alcohol and this could undermine their evanelizing efforts.
Furthermore, considering alcoholism, binge drinking, drunk driving and other evils that come with abuses of alcohol, the evangelical thinks that their drinking could be a stumbling block for someone else who has trouble with alcohol abuse.
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Snow
Guest
- You have no idea what he used. It is merely supposition.
- If he used wine, and you believe the NT itself, he didn’t drink any himself. Odd that he would serve to others what he refused to drink himself.
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Snow
Guest
The point is that the NT makes a very big deal about Christ not drinking alcohol - with a strong prohibition, double negative and second aorist subjunctive in Luke.
Drinking, therefore, in not Christlike. But Christ Himself instructs us to be perfect, like God in heaven is perfect.
Moderation is better than sloppy drunk but being Christlike is better than moderation.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Where in Luke? Someone else pointed out your citation was about John not Christ, is there another citation?
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Walden
Guest
I posted earlier in regards to Luke 1:15. Perhaps I’m wrong, but verse 15 seems to be referring John the Baptist. It isn’t until verse 26 that the Gospel turns to Jesus.
Is there somewhere else in the New Testament that makes a big deal about Christ not consuming alcohol?
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Walden
Guest
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to pile on. I take my time when I post
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Snow
Guest
My mistake. Sorry.
I guess one can assume that a prophet should not drink but it’s okay for God to get a buzz going.
I guess one can assume that a prophet should not drink but it’s okay for God to get a buzz going.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
You state this and then when your citation is corrected you answer with the following sarcastic remark??
(Edited)
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dzheremi
Guest
Why do you assume that if Jesus drank, He must have “got a buzz” on? This is very inappropriate and strange.
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Walden
Guest
No big deal. I think an earlier poster mentioned the passage in Luke 7 about the people’s opinion of John and Jesus. They though John “hath a devil” (KJV) for NOT drinking wine and eating bread. They referred to Jesus as “a gluttonous man, and a winebibber” because he DID eat bread and drink wine. Apparently, it was a tough crowd to impress.
Certainly, I am not advocating that the Lord Jesus ever “caught a buzz”, but I think the implication is pretty clear.
EDIT - Again, I am slow to the draw!
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ellammcg
Guest
Israel’s grape harvest months: June-September
Passover: approximately April
Number of days grape juice takes to ferment: 5 (although the alcohol level increases over time)
Date when non-fermentable grape juice was invented: 1869
“But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.” KJV Lk 1:13-15
Passover: approximately April
Number of days grape juice takes to ferment: 5 (although the alcohol level increases over time)
Date when non-fermentable grape juice was invented: 1869
“But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.” KJV Lk 1:13-15
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
What was the beginning of Christ’s miracles?
Joh 2:6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece.
Joh 2:7 Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
Joh 2:8 And Jesus saith to them: Draw out now and carry to the chief steward of the feast. And they carried it.
Joh 2:9 And when the chief steward had tasted the water made wine and knew not whence it was, but the waiters knew who had drawn the water: the chief steward calleth the bridegroom,
Joh 2:10 And saith to him: Every man at first setteth forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse. But thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
Joh 2:6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece.
Joh 2:7 Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
Joh 2:8 And Jesus saith to them: Draw out now and carry to the chief steward of the feast. And they carried it.
Joh 2:9 And when the chief steward had tasted the water made wine and knew not whence it was, but the waiters knew who had drawn the water: the chief steward calleth the bridegroom,
Joh 2:10 And saith to him: Every man at first setteth forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse. But thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
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CWBetts
Guest
CK,
With every one of your posts, I lose respect for you. It almost completely eroded at this point.
With every one of your posts, I lose respect for you. It almost completely eroded at this point.
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pismopal
Guest
This thread is interesting beyond the question of the non Catholic approach to alcoholic beverages. It demonstrates that what a person is taught about any subject trumps the truth almost every time. If wine has been made taboo by a denom, then Christ did not use it, wine could not have been part of the last supper, end of story…no matter what is historical fact.
The grape juice story will persist even in view of the fact that grape juice will become wine no matter what you do…unless you use technology that was not available before the 1900s…this is a riot.
The grape juice story will persist even in view of the fact that grape juice will become wine no matter what you do…unless you use technology that was not available before the 1900s…this is a riot.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
YOU FIND THIS IN JOHN 1 WHAT olease let me see it
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