Why do some say that Catholic is not Christian?

[friardchips]

Oh for goodness sake.

What does it mean to be CHRISTIAN??

Fran

Hi! To be baptised is to receive the character of the Lord upon our souls. There is no more beautiful supernatural act other than His life itself. And our Confirmation into the Church is also a confirmation of one’s faith to live by His Gospels. Such is the power of the Holy Spirit. And such is the beauty of His miracles.

The Sacraments, including the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Holy Communion, are what the blood of martyrs risked their lives to ensure people from all nations could eventually receive. To receive reconciliation with the Lord wipes the scarlet sins away and makes one’s soul as white as snow.

Holy Communion is in itself a witness. Going to Church is, each time we do this, a kind of pilgrimage of faith. To receive Holy Communion, and to introduce people into the all embracing faith, is one of greatest acts of witness there is. The psalm reads that one day spent in the presence of the Lord is better than a thousand elsewhere. The graces received from the Sacraments gives us the strength to go out of ourselves and bring His light to others. His light is to be shared.

Prayer, the Sacraments, the Holy Mass, and charitable works, can provide the means to a fulfilling virtuous life in the trust that we are truly parts of His body, all doing His work in the ways He called us to do this, and this foundation of love allows us to receive His graces needed for remaining true to these very foundations, which help to form a Christian life.

The Pope has opened the doors of Mercy to His Church as a call for us to really consider what a life lived in gratitude of His mercy really means and a call to bring this invitation to others. Maybe you too will light a candle in a Cathedral for those who are in need of His grace.

I also want to share something with you. I remember once thinking, when looking at some of the people in a congregation sitting waiting for Mass to begin, how fragile, vulnerable and breakable people really are. And it struck me at that point how fortunate it was that these “little ones” were in His house, and as another psalm says, were in the Palm of His Hand.

It is exactly for the sake of goodness that bringing people to the light of faith is such a work close to the Heart of our Lord. He Himself said that anyone who welcomes the stranger, welcomes anyone, welcomes Him. Let’s not be a stranger unto ourselves and be thankful instead for the ways and means He has put before us that we might share, and have a share, in Him - the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Have a blessed day, Fran.

 

[Sarcelle]

***D. Alleged and Real Corruption

---

Non-Catholics point to many examples of corruption and mistreatment in both the modern and past Catholic Church and see this as representative of a poor relationship with God. You Catholics have your Saints, we Protestants have Martyrs – and I’m sorry to say this, but a rather lot of them were executed by Catholics. These events are not commonly discussed on these forums for obvious reasons, but there were many atrocities. Unfortunately, the issue is not really quite so black and white. Protestants also martyred and mistreated Catholics. Atrocities were committed on both sides and there is corruption in both organizations. Unfortunately, recent crimes committed by Catholic clergy has done nothing to assuage these beliefs, but only made the conflict greater. Nonetheless, I think this criticism is invalid and cannot be applied to the majority of Catholics.

E. Claims of Infallibility

Non-Catholic church’s balk at Church claims of infallibility, for obvious reasons. Some Protestants that this is heretical, stating that only God is truly infallible. All man’s works are fallible and incomplete and the Catholic Church is no exception. For the most part, this is based on misinterpretation of Catholic claims (at least, modern Catholic claims; I have no clue where more traditional Catholics would stand). Papal infallibility, as many have told me, does not apply to everything the Pope says and certainly not to everything the Priests say. Regardless, the way Catholics phrase often leads to unfortunate misunderstandings.

F. Baptismal Teaching

Many Protestants (well, it depends on who you ask, some denominations are different, obviously) , believe that baptism does not save and has no power to do so. Some view it as merely symbolic, others view it as spiritual, but not saving. Some reject its usage on infants, believing it should only be used on those who have accepted Christ as their savior. [From personal experience, my church honestly did not care what you thought. Though they rejected the concept that baptism saves, they allowed infant baptism as a sign of the church and a promise of God’s protection, but also baptized adults and teens when they had passed our inquirers class, if that was their preference.]

Regardless, many reject the concept that you are save by baptism. Physical baptism has nothing to do with salvation in their opinion. It is the power of spiritual baptism that saves and you don’t need water to do this (though obviously, no Christian I know of objects to Baptism by water). This is where I would disagree most strongly with Catholics, particularly because of some of the things I have read on this forum, where some people honestly seem to believe or imply that baptism by water is essential for salvation. I hold that they are very wrong and that this belief is harmful, particularly because it leads some to believe that those who leave the church but don’t commit any mortal sins are still saved. Ultimately, however, I don’t think this is the view of all Catholics and I don’t think that that it is worthy of being called heresy, particularly since Protestants are also of this view.

G. Oddities
There are other reasons for objection, including Transubstantiation, all the gilt and statues in your churches, and some biblical prophecies about Babylon. Most of the ones in this category are just too crazy/misunderstood to deserve a mention.

NOTE: I am NOT trying to attack Catholics or defend Protestants. Please do not get into an argument with me over our doctrinal differences. I am merely trying to explain why some Protestants (in my opinion, mistakenly and due to dis-information) believe what they believe about the Catholic church. If I have misrepresented your Church’s doctrinal statements (I’m sure in all of this you would find something at least poorly worded) please supply a correction.

Sincerely yours in Christ,

FractalFire

Thank you for your well reasoned post. Now, considering baptism by water, there is a Protestant church, the Church of Christ which believes that baptism by immersion is a necessary part of being saved.

 

[randomuser]

***D. Alleged and Real Corruption

---

G. Oddities
There are other reasons for objection, including Transubstantiation, all the gilt and statues in your churches, and some biblical prophecies about Babylon. Most of the ones in this category are just too crazy/misunderstood to deserve a mention.

**You forgot: H. Constantine **

Many of those who say Catholics are not Christian are more often than not the very same people who think Constantine founded the Catholic church – and yet, Constantine has become a taboo topic that isn’t talked about anymore, thereby reinforcing the (erroneous and false) view that Catholics aren’t Christian.

 

[friardchips]

**You forgot: H. Constantine **

Many of those who say Catholics are not Christian are more often than not the very same people who think Constantine founded the Catholic church – and yet, Constantine has become a taboo topic that isn’t talked about anymore, thereby reinforcing the (erroneous and false) view that Catholics aren’t Christian.

There is a great saint at the time of Constantine who was called St. Katherine. A brilliant film about Constantine and the saint here: imdb.com/title/tt1587685/

 

[friardchips]

Hmmm… I disagree, because I hold that no one church has all of its members “saved.” I honestly think that their are many who call themselves Catholic (and Protestant, whatever), who will be among the goats in the end times (and the Bible seems to back this up). If Richard Dawkins had been a Catholic who was baptized and then went away and become a raging Atheist like he is now, he would *not * be a Christian, regardless of whether he once was baptized (which he probably was, btw, just in an Anglican church, if I remember correctly).

Hi! No one said anything about ‘once saved always saved’. In this life, if one is baptised a Catholic, then one is a Catholic for life. If one lives as a heretic and dies in mortal sin unrepentent then said-Catholic might well not go on to become a saint in Heaven. In this life though, Catholics always have a chance to repent via the Sacrament that awaits them, if it is that their sins were gravely serious, and to fully undertake his or her baptismal promises once again, afresh; thus, a new Spring day begins!

 

[In_His_Grace]

I have been told before that being Catholic is completely different than being Christian. How is this even possible? I mean I can understand people saying say Mormons amd Jehovah’s Witnesses not being Christian but how can one say the largest denomination in Christianity amd not to mention arguably the original church which is suppose Eastern Orthodox churches can claim as well is the original church?

I believe there are many Catholics who are Christians.

 

[guanophore]

But I believe that Roman Catholics say that if one is baptized Catholic, that sacrament is efficacious. One can be practicing or non-practicing, but it still holds. And they keep you on the books.

Yes. One cannot undo the circumcision made without hands by the Holy Spirit. The sacrament is wholly efficacious.

As to one practicing or not, each one validly baptized can choose to throw away their birthright. It does not throw away the fact that one was adopted and sealed by the Holy Spirit, it just means they are prodigal, and may die in their sins.

By this, I was referring to the belief that Baptism by water provides salvation (or at least, somehow initiates or is required for salvation). I disagree with this, but I don’t think it is heretical in the form the Catholic church or other Protestant churches teach it.

We believe the Apostles taught that Baptism initiates us into salvation, and is required. It is one of the main aspects that separates us from those ecclesial traditins descended from the Reformation in which baptism by the HS has been separated from the water.

 

[eazyduzit]

Yes. One cannot undo the circumcision made without hands by the Holy Spirit. The sacrament is wholly efficacious.

As to one practicing or not, each one validly baptized can choose to throw away their birthright. It does not throw away the fact that one was adopted and sealed by the Holy Spirit, it just means they are prodigal, and may die in their sins.

We believe the Apostles taught that Baptism initiates us into salvation, and is required. It is one of the main aspects that separates us from those ecclesial traditins descended from the Reformation in which baptism by the HS has been separated from the water.

Even Charismatic Catholics believe in the infilling or baptism in the HS apart from water baptism.

 

[Horton]

I believe there are many Catholics who are Christians.

All Catholics are Christians. This does not mean all Catholics behave in a Christian manner and some are just plain bad Christians but once a person receives a valid baptism, that person is a Christian. This isn’t a OSAS concept. Anyone can turn their life away from God and live in such away they risk the fires of hell, but that behavior does not invalidate a valid baptism.

I think many are getting stuck on definitions here.

 

[Horton]

Hi! To be baptised is to receive the character of the Lord upon our souls. There is no more beautiful supernatural act other than His life itself. And our Confirmation into the Church is also a confirmation of one’s faith to live by His Gospels. Such is the power of the Holy Spirit. And such is the beauty of His miracles.

The Sacraments, including the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Holy Communion, are what the blood of martyrs risked their lives to ensure people from all nations could eventually receive. To receive reconciliation with the Lord wipes the scarlet sins away and makes one’s soul as white as snow.

Holy Communion is in itself a witness. Going to Church is, each time we do this, a kind of pilgrimage of faith. To receive Holy Communion, and to introduce people into the all embracing faith, is one of greatest acts of witness there is. The psalm reads that one day spent in the presence of the Lord is better than a thousand elsewhere. The graces received from the Sacraments gives us the strength to go out of ourselves and bring His light to others. His light is to be shared.

Prayer, the Sacraments, the Holy Mass, and charitable works, can provide the means to a fulfilling virtuous life in the trust that we are truly parts of His body, all doing His work in the ways He called us to do this, and this foundation of love allows us to receive His graces needed for remaining true to these very foundations, which help to form a Christian life.

The Pope has opened the doors of Mercy to His Church as a call for us to really consider what a life lived in gratitude of His mercy really means and a call to bring this invitation to others. Maybe you too will light a candle in a Cathedral for those who are in need of His grace.

I also want to share something with you. I remember once thinking, when looking at some of the people in a congregation sitting waiting for Mass to begin, how fragile, vulnerable and breakable people really are. And it struck me at that point how fortunate it was that these “little ones” were in His house, and as another psalm says, were in the Palm of His Hand.

It is exactly for the sake of goodness that bringing people to the light of faith is such a work close to the Heart of our Lord. He Himself said that anyone who welcomes the stranger, welcomes anyone, welcomes Him. Let’s not be a stranger unto ourselves and be thankful instead for the ways and means He has put before us that we might share, and have a share, in Him - the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Have a blessed day, Fran.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hi! To be baptised is to receive the character of the Lord upon our souls. There is no more beautiful supernatural act other than His life itself. And our Confirmation into the Church is also a confirmation of one’s faith to live by His Gospels. Such is the power of the Holy Spirit. And such is the beauty of His miracles.

The Sacraments, including the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Holy Communion, are what the blood of martyrs risked their lives to ensure people from all nations could eventually receive. To receive reconciliation with the Lord wipes the scarlet sins away and makes one’s soul as white as snow.

Holy Communion is in itself a witness. Going to Church is, each time we do this, a kind of pilgrimage of faith. To receive Holy Communion, and to introduce people into the all embracing faith, is one of greatest acts of witness there is. The psalm reads that one day spent in the presence of the Lord is better than a thousand elsewhere. The graces received from the Sacraments gives us the strength to go out of ourselves and bring His light to others. His light is to be shared.

Prayer, the Sacraments, the Holy Mass, and charitable works, can provide the means to a fulfilling virtuous life in the trust that we are truly parts of His body, all doing His work in the ways He called us to do this, and this foundation of love allows us to receive His graces needed for remaining true to these very foundations, which help to form a Christian life.

The Pope has opened the doors of Mercy to His Church as a call for us to really consider what a life lived in gratitude of His mercy really means and a call to bring this invitation to others. Maybe you too will light a candle in a Cathedral for those who are in need of His grace.

I also want to share something with you. I remember once thinking, when looking at some of the people in a congregation sitting waiting for Mass to begin, how fragile, vulnerable and breakable people really are. And it struck me at that point how fortunate it was that these “little ones” were in His house, and as another psalm says, were in the Palm of His Hand.

It is exactly for the sake of goodness that bringing people to the light of faith is such a work close to the Heart of our Lord. He Himself said that anyone who welcomes the stranger, welcomes anyone, welcomes Him. Let’s not be a stranger unto ourselves and be thankful instead for the ways and means He has put before us that we might share, and have a share, in Him - the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Have a blessed day, Fran.

Hi Friardchips,

I was going to end it here, but I guess i should explain a bit before I go.

Your post above is exactly why catholics are not considered christian by many.

Everything you say above explains what a Catholic is, but not what a Christian is. You make it so difficult, there are so many steps.

Being a Christian is simple. It’s what I’ve already said but will repeat. it just means that you BELIEVE Jesus is your Lord, that He is the awaited Messiah, that He died for your sins and then He was resurrected.

The resurrection part is very important. Remember when Jesus asked his apostles who the people in town thought He was? And Peter said, You Are the Christ. This is the most important question in Christianity. Who Do You Say That I Am?

So that’s what being Christian means. Then if you want to explain what being Catholic means, that’s a different story. But if you answer as in your post it kind of confirms that we don’t know what a Christian is!

About those fragile people in church. I agree with you. There’s a priest in one of the two parishes I’m involved with who won’t use the word “sin”. He always says “fragilities”. In Italian it’s correct grammar! But I have a question for you. Is everyone in church a christian? I know people who go to church because it’s a habit, or because it’s a family tradition. I know people who go to church who don’t believe in an afterlife or who aren’t even sure God exists.

So, yeah. Let’s get a good definition of what a christian is so we could also say that SOME catholics are christian, some are atheists, some are agnostic.

Also, let’s clear up that “believing” in Jesus doesn’t mean we believe He existed at some point in time. But we bellieve in Him by the Greek definition. To follow, to believe with your mind and heart, to agree with, to adhere to, etc.

So is “christian” just a religious designation, or does it really mean something??

Fran

 

[eazyduzit]

All Catholics are Christians. This does not mean all Catholics behave in a Christian manner and some are just plain bad Christians but once a person receives a valid baptism, that person is a Christian. This isn’t a OSAS concept. Anyone can turn their life away from God and live in such away they risk the fires of hell, but that behavior does not invalidate a valid baptism.

I think many are getting stuck on definitions here.

Right, we don’t need to get into who is saved or not. Every Church is made up of wheat and tares or Believers and Make-believers. We all have the same data, the Gospel or “Good news”. The difference is in the response to it.

 

[eazyduzit]

Hi Friardchips,

I was going to end it here, but I guess i should explain a bit before I go.

Your post above is exactly why catholics are not considered christian by many.

Everything you say above explains what a Catholic is, but not what a Christian is. You make it so difficult, there are so many steps.

Being a Christian is simple. It’s what I’ve already said but will repeat. it just means that you BELIEVE Jesus is your Lord, that He is the awaited Messiah, that He died for your sins and then He was resurrected.

The resurrection part is very important. Remember when Jesus asked his apostles who the people in town thought He was? And Peter said, You Are the Christ. This is the most important question in Christianity. Who Do You Say That I Am?

Good post Fran. The devils also recognize Jesus but the don’t put belief or trust in Him.
So that’s what being Christian means. Then if you want to explain what being Catholic means, that’s a different story. But if you answer as in your post it kind of confirms that we don’t know what a Christian is!

About those fragile people in church. I agree with you. There’s a priest in one of the two parishes I’m involved with who won’t use the word “sin”. He always says “fragilities”. In Italian it’s correct grammar! But I have a question for you. Is everyone in church a christian? I know people who go to church because it’s a habit, or because it’s a family tradition. I know people who go to church who don’t believe in an afterlife or who aren’t even sure God exists.

So, yeah. Let’s get a good definition of what a christian is so we could also say that SOME catholics are christian, some are atheists, some are agnostic.

Also, let’s clear up that “believing” in Jesus doesn’t mean we believe He existed at some point in time. But we bellieve in Him by the Greek definition. To follow, to believe with your mind and heart, to agree with, to adhere to, etc.

So is “christian” just a religious designation, or does it really mean something??

Fran

Good post Fran. The devils also recognize Jesus but they don’t believe or put trust in Him.

 

[guanophore]

Even Charismatic Catholics believe in the infilling or baptism in the HS apart from water baptism.

No, eazy, we do not. On the contrary, we understand the infilling of the HS is a consequence of our baptism, confirmation, and eager seeking of the Giver of Life.

Being a Christian is simple. It’s what I’ve already said but will repeat. it just means that you BELIEVE Jesus is your Lord, that He is the awaited Messiah, that He died for your sins and then He was resurrected.

I don’t disagree with your point, Fran but there are 'nominal" Christians that do not live out the vows of their baptism. They may be cultural Catholics, but they do not practice their faith. They may be lapsed, uncatechized, wayward or any number of maladies, ,but none of that undoes their baptism. It only means, ,if they don’t repent, that their last state will be worse than their first.

 But if you answer as in your post it kind of confirms that we don't know what a Christian is!

There are plenty of non-Catholc persons who claim to be Catholic, yet do not live as disciples of Christ.

But I have a question for you.  Is everyone in church a christian?  I know people who go to church because it's a habit, or because it's a family tradition.  I know people who go to church who don't believe in an afterlife or who aren't even sure God exists.

If they are validly baptized they have the right to be called Christians. But I agree with your point that not everyone who goes into a church building is a Christain or espojses Christian faith.

So, yeah. Let’s get a good definition of what a christian is so we could also say that SOME catholics are christian, some are atheists, some are agnostic.

A person who has been Catholic and become an atheist, Protestant, or agnostic has left the Catholic faith, dont’ you think?

So is “christian” just a religious designation, or does it really mean something??

Fran

In our present culture, it is both (I know you have a hard time with that ).

 

[Wannano]

Good post Fran. The devils also recognize Jesus but they don’t believe or put trust in Him.

I have always been taught that the devil knows who Jesus is and that he (the devil) thought he had victory over Jesus when He died on the cross. Ever since the resurrection the devil knows he is defeated but he is given his time to try to defeat all who are followers of Jesus and his time is getting short and he knows it. Like Pope Francis said, the devil knows who the Christians are…

 

[frangiuliano115]

No, eazy, we do not. On the contrary, we understand the infilling of the HS is a consequence of our baptism, confirmation, and eager seeking of the Giver of Life.

I don’t disagree with your point, Fran but there are 'nominal" Christians that do not live out the vows of their baptism. They may be cultural Catholics, but they do not practice their faith. They may be lapsed, uncatechized, wayward or any number of maladies, ,but none of that undoes their baptism. It only means, ,if they don’t repent, that their last state will be worse than their first.

There are plenty of non-Catholc persons who claim to be Catholic, yet do not live as disciples of Christ.

If they are validly baptized they have the right to be called Christians. But I agree with your point that not everyone who goes into a church building is a Christain or espojses Christian faith.

A person who has been Catholic and become an atheist, Protestant, or agnostic has left the Catholic faith, dont’ you think?

In our present culture, it is both (I know you have a hard time with that ).

Here’s why I have a difficult time with this:

About 80% (it used to be 90) of polled adults say they are Christian ( of any denomination). So why are we in such a mess? We should be living in a Utopia in that case!

So yes. We’ve lost the meaning of what Christian means. I’m just trying to bring it back (in a VERY small way).

I think a word should mean something.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Right, we don’t need to get into who is saved or not. Every Church is made up of wheat and tares or Believers and Make-believers. We all have the same data, the Gospel or “Good news”. The difference is in the response to it.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Here’s why I have a difficult time with this:

About 80% (it used to be 90) of polled adults say they are Christian ( of any denomination). So why are we in such a mess? We should be living in a Utopia in that case!

So yes. We’ve lost the meaning of what Christian means. I’m just trying to bring it back (in a VERY small way).

I think a word should mean something.

But I would challenge you if you start defining the meaning of Christian. And I would image that many others would also. For me, it is probably something very different from your definition. For a Quaker it would mean something completely different from either of us.

When the pilgrims came to America in the 1600’s, they wanted to found a Christian Utopia. It didn’t work out very well, did it? Perhaps we all start with our own practice and beliefs and see what God is asking of us.

 

[frangiuliano115]

But I would challenge you if you start defining the meaning of Christian. And I would image that many others would also. For me, it is probably something very different from your definition. For a Quaker it would mean something completely different from either of us.

When the pilgrims came to America in the 1600’s, they wanted to found a Christian Utopia. It didn’t work out very well, did it? Perhaps we all start with our own practice and beliefs and see what God is asking of us.

I have to go after this, but I do find this interesting.

I have a feeling that a Quaker would understand “christian” the same way I do.

Any Quakers out there?

Fran
This has nothing to do with Pilgrims…

 

[ComplineSanFran]

This has nothing to do with Pilgrims…

You mentioned in an earlier post that if there were so many self-defined Christians, we would all be living in Utopia.

That was why I referenced the pilgrims - the ones who chose to create a Christian Utopia.