Why do some stay in the Catholic Church while seeming to hate the Church with all their being?

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you’re saying that many people are now saying the Church’s morality involves peeking into bedrooms? that’s a seriously grave misrepresentation of Church teaching, isn’t it? maybe you’re mistaken about this.
Not mistaken. It’s pretty common among Catholics who practice ABC to make statements like that. I’ve heard it many times over my 64 years. One version is “Tell the Pope to stay out of my bedroom!” or “The Pope (or Church) doesn’t have any business in my bedroom.”

Of course the statements aren’t to be taken literally–they know the Pope or Church isn’t in their bedroom. They just feel the Church has no business making pronouncements concerning the sexual behavior between married people. That is where they are coming from.
 
Did Christ come for the righteous? No. Personally, I think it wrong to question anyone sticking with their faith and going to the place of correction.
What is really bad is when leaders of the Church such as priests, bishops etc preach against things the Church teaches. This can damage souls worse than anything.
 
What is really bad is when leaders of the Church such as priests, bishops etc preach against things the Church teaches. This can damage souls worse than anything.
Who among us is perfect? Do we hold one’s sins up as worse than our own? Are we more righteous than anyone?
 
I think the main reason people like this stay in the Church is pride. It’s not enough for them to just leave, because they don’t want to just find people that agree with them, they want to actively assert their will on others, and they can only do this in a place (like the Church) that “resists” their will.

Also, to some degree, some of them may deep down have a sense that the Church is right, and this nags at them, so while they want to assert their will on the Church, they also can’t quite let go.

To the person saying that this thread is judging others, there is nothing judgemental in asking why someone would belong to a group that they disagree with; it’s a perfectly valid question.

My guess would be that many of these people that hate the Church, yet stay nominally part of it, would feel very uncomforable if they had to honestly look into themselves and confront this question head on. They would see parts of themselves that they would not like see, and that is why this question is often danced around, or completely avoided.
My 86 year old Mother is very critical of the Church, and she has been Catholic all her life and goes to Mass regularly. Once I asked her if she were so unhappy with it, why didn’t she find another church? She looked at me like I had two heads. Where else would she go? It is all she has ever known. I think this may have a lot to do with it.
 
Not mistaken. It’s pretty common among Catholics who practice ABC to make statements like that. I’ve heard it many times over my 64 years. One version is “Tell the Pope to stay out of my bedroom!” or “The Pope (or Church) doesn’t have any business in my bedroom.”

Of course the statements aren’t to be taken literally–they know the Pope or Church isn’t in their bedroom. They just feel the Church has no business making pronouncements concerning the sexual behavior between married people. That is where they are coming from.
I believe you, but that isn’t what’s happening here.
 
Christ also said it was His to separate the goats and sheep. We can’t take instructions to the authoritative men of the Church as license to push people away from HIS house.
Again, where is the PUSHING? A couple of other posters, like the OP and I wonder why people stay in the Church when they seem to be in sharp disagrement about important issues. It’s not as if people are comlaining because they don’t like the new altar cloth design. I hear it as well and just curious. Again, I disagreed wtih modern Methodism and left. I didn’t keep attending and telling my fellow congregants that the Methodist church is wrong.

And yes the OP made some comparisons but only to illustrate the question. Obviously he appreciates and admires Catholics who take their faith seriously. So do I. And quite honestly I really dislike self identified Catholics who take a loud and public stance against Church teaching…Biden, Pelosi, Sebeius for example. I wonder why in heck they still call themselves Catholics while openly disparaging the Church’s teaching.

Truly I don’t get it. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to slam the church door in their face or glare at them. There is a big difference between questioning and condemning.

Lisa
 
Again, where is the PUSHING? A couple of other posters, like the OP and I wonder why people stay in the Church when they seem to be in sharp disagrement about important issues. It’s not as if people are comlaining because they don’t like the new altar cloth design. I hear it as well and just curious. Again, I disagreed wtih modern Methodism and left. I didn’t keep attending and telling my fellow congregants that the Methodist church is wrong.

And yes the OP made some comparisons but only to illustrate the question. Obviously he appreciates and admires Catholics who take their faith seriously. So do I. And quite honestly I really dislike self identified Catholics who take a loud and public stance against Church teaching…Biden, Pelosi, Sebeius for example. I wonder why in heck they still call themselves Catholics while openly disparaging the Church’s teaching.

Truly I don’t get it. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to slam the church door in their face or glare at them. There is a big difference between questioning and condemning.

Lisa
The illustration speaks to others not as righteous, and never will be, so why do they stay in the Church?

We are called to love even our enemies, and we are called not to judge, lest we be judged. We were taught about motes and beams in our eyes. We know who the Judge is, and there is only one. How many times did Christ call the self righteous ‘hypocrites?’ There is an authoritative Church, and pushing away is very much against what the Church teaches.
 
Again, where is the PUSHING? A couple of other posters, like the OP and I wonder why people stay in the Church when they seem to be in sharp disagrement about important issues. It’s not as if people are comlaining because they don’t like the new altar cloth design. I hear it as well and just curious. Again, I disagreed wtih modern Methodism and left. I didn’t keep attending and telling my fellow congregants that the Methodist church is wrong.

And yes the OP made some comparisons but only to illustrate the question. Obviously he appreciates and admires Catholics who take their faith seriously. So do I. And quite honestly I really dislike self identified Catholics who take a loud and public stance against Church teaching…Biden, Pelosi, Sebeius for example. I wonder why in heck they still call themselves Catholics while openly disparaging the Church’s teaching.

Truly I don’t get it. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to slam the church door in their face or glare at them. There is a big difference between questioning and condemning.

Lisa
This.

Nobody said anything bad or judgemental. The question is simply why would someone voluntarily belong to a group, that is based on beliefs, that they disagree with. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Perhaps you should spend less time condemning these people and more time making the Church feel charitable, friendly and welcoming to all, Catholic and non-Catholic, sinners all…

You don’t know what is in their hearts, what struggles they have, the pain that being in disagreement may cause them, the movement of their consciences etc. Or would you push them away from the Word of God altogether, just because you don’t approve of them? Sounds to me like something that Jesus would not approve of…
Excellent post. How refreshingly non-judgmental.
 
The illustration speaks to others not as righteous, and never will be, so why do they stay in the Church?

We are called to love even our enemies, and we are called not to judge, lest we be judged. We were taught about motes and beams in our eyes. We know who the Judge is, and there is only one. How many times did Christ call the self righteous ‘hypocrites?’ There is an authoritative Church, and pushing away is very much against what the Church teaches.
Honestly you must be reading a completely different post than did I. Further judging behavior is certainly not against the teaching of Christ. We don’t judge souls but I didn’t see any such judgment.

Honestly you come off as far more self righteous than the OP. I guess we just read differently.

So do you have a response to the actual question or just more Bible verses that appear to condemn both the question and the questioner.

Lisa
 
The illustration speaks to others not as righteous, and never will be, so why do they stay in the Church?

We are called to love even our enemies, and we are called not to judge, lest we be judged. We were taught about motes and beams in our eyes. We know who the Judge is, and there is only one. How many times did Christ call the self righteous ‘hypocrites?’ There is an authoritative Church, and pushing away is very much against what the Church teaches.
No one said not to love these people or not to forgive them or to push them away from the Church.

People in the Church that advocate against Church teaching are objectively sinning. Calling a sin a sin is not judgemental, its simply stating a fact. We need to love those people and forgive them, but what youre saying is that the mere recognition of sin is wrong. That is simply incorrect, and is wildly inconsistent with the Bible, and Church teaching.
 
Dex, the only one who sounds angry here is you. I don’t think the OP condmned the people who stay in the Church for staying but just trying to understand. I admit wondering this myself. As a convert I chose the Catholic Church. At the time I converted I didn’t agree or understand a lot of the teaching but I kept working at it, reading and listening. I soon realized that some of the doctrines i might have rejected at face value, I accepted once I understood.

I too wonder why people stay when they are in such sharp disagreement. I don’t resent it, I don’t dislike them for coming, I hope their minds are open to the Word and maybe their hearts will change. But I still don’t understand those who are so vehemently opposed to Church teaching but stay. To some extent I think they are trying to form allies. Maybe they are there because they like the music and tune out the homily. Or they have friends and family.

More of a curiousity than a condemnation IMO
Lisa
In my experience there are several reasons why people ‘stay,’ and why people while seeming to ‘hate’ the Church.

The first point I would make is the definition of the term ‘Church.’ Is the definition of ‘Church’ is the teachings of the Church, Church clerics and the institutions of the Church? People may dislike and have objections to these features of the Church, but these are features are not the only features the Church possess. The ‘Church’ is in fact all of us - the body of Christ.

Just because someone does not like or has objections to certain teachings, clerics and the institutions of the Church does not mean they have rejected God, and it doesn’t mean they reject everything the Church teaches. I’m quite sure I don’t need to outline the scandals in Ireland, and it is a big reason why people have lost faith in the Church. (Church as defined above) It cannot be said that no matter what people in the church do we should not loose faith in the church in my view places greater responsibility on those the people and less on church leaders when it should be the other way around as they are more responsible before God. I say this because Jesus said we may as well have a millstone placed around our necks than cause a ‘little one’ to loose faith. Can we really a merciful God expects us to keep faith in people who cause so much hurt? To say God appointment them is in my view a hollow argument. Jesus chose Judas. We are not obliged to keep faith in people when they themselves demonstrate their lack of it.

I have heard many people today say, ‘I didn’t choose my religion, it was chosen for me and I had no say in it.’ Let’s be honest, they have a point. Like you, I am a convert to the Catholic faith and maybe this is one of the reasons I can understand why people may feel resentful in being coerced into following a faith they did not choose. To say, ‘well they are free to leave - but they will answer to God’ - is not really giving them the freedom to choose but rather a conditional choice, which is not really a choice. In the Prodigal Son, the father gave his son the freedom to choose with no conditions. He never gave up hope he would come back and in the end he did.

My eldest son is preparing for the Confirmation, and he’s really confused because he says he does not know what to believe. As his mother, I have the responsibility of guiding him but I think expecting an 11 year old to never change their mind about anything they believe is unrealistic and places an unreasonably high burden on them. In short, I explained things by saying sometimes you have to do something in order to know whether or not you believe in it. I won’t go into any more detail as this is turning out to be an incredibly long post. Apologies.

The other reason people in my part of the world ‘stay’ is because being Catholic is intrinsically linked to one’s identity, and people don’t want to loose that. While they may criticize Catholicism, they don’t want to be someone or something else. I have also found when you talk to them, deep down they still believe most of it. It has also been suggested by catholic educators that what has been termed the ‘critic’ stage is a stage of faith development, and a necessary one in order to truly embrace a faith of your own free will and not just because that’s what you were raised. People who emerge from the ‘critic’ often have a deeper sense of spirituality. Perhaps the church is going through a ‘critic’ stage as a whole as we live in very confusing times.

On a final note, I once asked a priest many questions on the Catholic faith and asked him how long it would take to understand what the Church on these issues. His answer was - a lifetime.
 
In my experience there are several reasons why people ‘stay,’ and why people while seeming to ‘hate’ the Church.

The first point I would make is the definition of the term ‘Church.’ Is the definition of ‘Church’ is the teachings of the Church, Church clerics and the institutions of the Church? People may dislike and have objections to these features of the Church, but these are features are not the only features the Church possess. The ‘Church’ is in fact all of us - the body of Christ.

Just because someone does not like or has objections to certain teachings, clerics and the institutions of the Church does not mean they have rejected God, and it doesn’t mean they reject everything the Church teaches. I’m quite sure I don’t need to outline the scandals in Ireland, and it is a big reason why people have lost faith in the Church. (Church as defined above) It cannot be said that no matter what people in the church do we should not loose faith in the church in my view places greater responsibility on those the people and less on church leaders when it should be the other way around as they are more responsible before God. I say this because Jesus said we may as well have a millstone placed around our necks than cause a ‘little one’ to loose faith. Can we really a merciful God expects us to keep faith in people who cause so much hurt? To say God appointment them is in my view a hollow argument. Jesus chose Judas. We are not obliged to keep faith in people when they themselves demonstrate their lack of it.

I have heard many people today say, ‘I didn’t choose my religion, it was chosen for me and I had no say in it.’ Let’s be honest, they have a point. Like you, I am a convert to the Catholic faith and maybe this is one of the reasons I can understand why people may feel resentful in being coerced into following a faith they did not choose. To say, ‘well they are free to leave - but they will answer to God’ - is not really giving them the freedom to choose but rather a conditional choice, which is not really a choice. In the Prodigal Son, the father gave his son the freedom to choose with no conditions. He never gave up hope he would come back and in the end he did.

My eldest son is preparing for the Confirmation, and he’s really confused because he says he does not know what to believe. As his mother, I have the responsibility of guiding him but I think expecting an 11 year old to never change their mind about anything they believe is unrealistic and places an unreasonably high burden on them. In short, I explained things by saying sometimes you have to do something in order to know whether or not you believe in it. I won’t go into any more detail as this is turning out to be an incredibly long post. Apologies.

The other reason people in my part of the world ‘stay’ is because being Catholic is intrinsically linked to one’s identity, and people don’t want to loose that. While they may criticize Catholicism, they don’t want to be someone or something else. I have also found when you talk to them, deep down they still believe most of it. It has also been suggested by catholic educators that what has been termed the ‘critic’ stage is a stage of faith development, and a necessary one in order to truly embrace a faith of your own free will and not just because that’s what you were raised. People who emerge from the ‘critic’ often have a deeper sense of spirituality. Perhaps the church is going through a ‘critic’ stage as a whole as we live in very confusing times.

On a final note, I once asked a priest many questions on the Catholic faith and asked him how long it would take to understand what the Church on these issues. His answer was - a lifetime.
I’m guessing it is like people who stay working in a job they hate with everything in them. Yet when the alarm rings in the morning they get in their car or other means of transport and go on to the job.🤷🤷
 
Honestly you must be reading a completely different post than did I. Further judging behavior is certainly not against the teaching of Christ. We don’t judge souls but I didn’t see any such judgment.

Honestly you come off as far more self righteous than the OP. I guess we just read differently.

So do you have a response to the actual question or just more Bible verses that appear to condemn both the question and the questioner.

Lisa
You mean those that dissent and rebel may ask questions but those that are orthodox may not ask questions? Hmm, seems a one way street for some.
 
Douay Rheims St Matthew 10

[11] And into whatsoever city or town you shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and there abide till you go thence. [12] And when you come into the house, salute it, saying: Peace be to this house. [13] And if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it; but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you. **[14] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. **[15] Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

[16] Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves. [17] But beware of men. For they will deliver you up in councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues. [18] And you shall be brought before governors, and before kings for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles: [19] But when they shall deliver you up, take no thought how or what to speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what to speak. [20] For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

To me, what Christ told the disciples was to simply walk away from those who would not hear Him, through His apostles. Notice that Christ did *not *suggest that His apostles stay in those towns and “not-judge” their *actions *on the off-hand chance the townspeople might come to see the error of their ways; no, Christ told the apostles to leave those people thoroughly–to the point of shaking the *dust *of those towns off their sandals!

I included a little more of what He said, so people could see precisely what Christ said about those people who would not hear Him…
This and your other quote from Thomas Aquanis (sp?) are very good. I would agree:) I once read in a Spiritual Warfare site how the enemy wants us to think that we can’t make discernments as to good and evil so as to decieve us and how he abuses this idea as much as possible. We are to be very able to discern good and evil, right and wrong within the Church to help us and those of our brethren who may be misled. This is good and right because its aim is for holiness toward our Lord in all. Please be wary of the work of the evil one. He is sly. Bless you for sharing!

mlz
 
Christ also said it was His to separate the goats and sheep. We can’t take instructions to the authoritative men of the Church as license to push people a way from HIS house.
Where does he question those in err coming to the Church? Even those who are excommunicated are encouraged to come to the Church.
This question comes up frequently, and every time it does, some people judge those who ask as judgmental.

Christ said not to judge the states of *souls. *He did not tell us to refrain from judging actions. He did not tell us to blindly accept any actions.

In fact, those who criticize those who ask this question sound to me like the old priests and nuns who are said to have refused to answer questions back in the bad old days before the spirit of V2.

It certainly sounds to me like one person asked a question about the motives of openly and profoundly heterodox Catholics in staying in the Church and others jumped in and accused her of judgementally wanting to push people out of the Church!

We are not talking about people who have questions or doubts or confusions or ignorance. We are talking about people who *skew *what Church doctors have said in order to justify refusing to protect babies from being killed in the womb!

So, why would we *not *question the motives of heterodox Catholics? Maybe if someone gives a good explanation, then we would understand better, and might even be able to more effectively address the heterodox people in our own lives, which would certainly be a good thing, no?
 
Honestly you must be reading a completely different post than did I. Further judging behavior is certainly not against the teaching of Christ. We don’t judge souls but I didn’t see any such judgment.

Honestly you come off as far more self righteous than the OP. I guess we just read differently.

So do you have a response to the actual question or just more Bible verses that appear to condemn both the question and the questioner.

Lisa
How does this poster know anyone ‘hates’ the Church with all their being?

Where does anyone get off questioning why others stay in the Church, while pointing out the sins of others, as if they are more righteous because they are ‘models of the Catholic faith?’

There’s a bit more than asking questions going on. It’s loaded with innuendos, and not in a charitable manner.

The Bible verses teach us, which is proper and which is not.
Luk 18:8 I say to you that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?
Luk 18:9 And to some who trusted in themselves as just and despised others, he spoke also this parable:
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray: the one a Pharisee and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in a week: I give tithes of all that I possess.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; but struck his breast, saying: O God, be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I say to you, this man went down into his house justified rather than the other: because every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
 
This question comes up frequently, and every time it does, some people judge those who ask as judgmental.

Christ said not to judge the states of *souls. *He did not tell us to refrain from judging actions. He did not tell us to blindly accept any actions.

In fact, those who criticize those who ask this question sound to me like the old priests and nuns who are said to have refused to answer questions back in the bad old days before the spirit of V2.

It certainly sounds to me like one person asked a question about the motives of openly and profoundly heterodox Catholics in staying in the Church and others jumped in and accused her of judgementally wanting to push people out of the Church!

We are not talking about people who have questions or doubts or confusions or ignorance. We are talking about people who *skew *what Church doctors have said in order to justify refusing to protect babies from being killed in the womb!

So, why would we *not *question the motives of heterodox Catholics? Maybe if someone gives a good explanation, then we would understand better, and might even be able to more effectively address the heterodox people in our own lives, which would certainly be a good thing, no?
Sure, let’s judge people and speak despicably about them and see how that ‘tough’ love wins them over to a faith, and God, of love.:rolleyes:

Let’s tell them how much better we are than they are and see if we can teach them humility. :rolleyes:
 
I don’t know about the situation in Ireland, bit the situation here is the US is that we have high-profile Catholics protecting late-term abortionists, “Catholic” politicians with 100% ratings from the National Abortion Rights Action League, one of whom bases her advocacy of the “right” of women to kill their unborn babies any time for any reason on the teachings of St Thomas Aquinas regarding penalties for someone who causes a miscarriage, very rich “Catholics” who fund the spread of artificial birth control including abortificients…

And all these people *proclaim *their “Catholic faith”–in fact, one even said her “Catholic faith” *causes her to believe that women should be legally free to kill their unborn babies.

So… it’s not just a matter of some random Catholic questioning why we can’t have married priests…
In my experience there are several reasons why people ‘stay,’ and why people while seeming to ‘hate’ the Church.

The first point I would make is the definition of the term ‘Church.’ Is the definition of ‘Church’ is the teachings of the Church, Church clerics and the institutions of the Church? People may dislike and have objections to these features of the Church, but these are features are not the only features the Church possess. The ‘Church’ is in fact all of us - the body of Christ.

Just because someone does not like or has objections to certain teachings, clerics and the institutions of the Church does not mean they have rejected God, and it doesn’t mean they reject everything the Church teaches. I’m quite sure I don’t need to outline the scandals in Ireland, and it is a big reason why people have lost faith in the Church. (Church as defined above) It cannot be said that no matter what people in the church do we should not loose faith in the church in my view places greater responsibility on those the people and less on church leaders when it should be the other way around as they are more responsible before God. I say this because Jesus said we may as well have a millstone placed around our necks than cause a ‘little one’ to loose faith. Can we really a merciful God expects us to keep faith in people who cause so much hurt? To say God appointment them is in my view a hollow argument. Jesus chose Judas. We are not obliged to keep faith in people when they themselves demonstrate their lack of it.

I have heard many people today say, ‘I didn’t choose my religion, it was chosen for me and I had no say in it.’ Let’s be honest, they have a point. Like you, I am a convert to the Catholic faith and maybe this is one of the reasons I can understand why people may feel resentful in being coerced into following a faith they did not choose. To say, ‘well they are free to leave - but they will answer to God’ - is not really giving them the freedom to choose but rather a conditional choice, which is not really a choice. In the Prodigal Son, the father gave his son the freedom to choose with no conditions. He never gave up hope he would come back and in the end he did.

My eldest son is preparing for the Confirmation, and he’s really confused because he says he does not know what to believe. As his mother, I have the responsibility of guiding him but I think expecting an 11 year old to never change their mind about anything they believe is unrealistic and places an unreasonably high burden on them. In short, I explained things by saying sometimes you have to do something in order to know whether or not you believe in it. I won’t go into any more detail as this is turning out to be an incredibly long post. Apologies.

The other reason people in my part of the world ‘stay’ is because being Catholic is intrinsically linked to one’s identity, and people don’t want to loose that. While they may criticize Catholicism, they don’t want to be someone or something else. I have also found when you talk to them, deep down they still believe most of it. It has also been suggested by catholic educators that what has been termed the ‘critic’ stage is a stage of faith development, and a necessary one in order to truly embrace a faith of your own free will and not just because that’s what you were raised. People who emerge from the ‘critic’ often have a deeper sense of spirituality. Perhaps the church is going through a ‘critic’ stage as a whole as we live in very confusing times.

On a final note, I once asked a priest many questions on the Catholic faith and asked him how long it would take to understand what the Church on these issues. His answer was - a lifetime.
 
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