Why do some traditional Catholics reject the Luminous Mysteries of the Rosary?

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HonoraDominum said:
Forgive my tangent, but this is the main thing that is holding me back from becoming a Third Order Carmelite right now. I pray the Divine Office 1962 edition, currently from DivinumOfficium.com but soon to be praying from the Baronius Press edition. I pray the Lauds, Vespers and Compline per the current Constitution of the OCDS’s, but I pray the hours that correspond to the liturgy in which I attend, the Extraordinary Form.

I’ve been told by multiple people that I will be flat-out told I have to pray the LOTH to abide by the precepts of the OCDS constitutions, but I simply adore praying the Divine Office in Latin, and in the form used in 1962 and approved for liturgical use by the Summorum Pontificum issued by Pope Benedict XVI. Since I feel so called to a vocation that centers around prayer for the Church, I find it important to pray the Hours that are truly Liturgical (i.e. Latin) and not just a personal devotion (i.e. English). It takes a while for me to pray the Hours, since I am glancing at the English translation as I read, but I’ve quickly gotten used to the back-and-forth between the Latin and English, and I’m actually picking up quite a bit of Latin in the progress. To pray LOTH would not only be off-kilter from my liturgy, but it would also be off-kilter with my ordo.

This isn’t a request for a solution or even a question, just a bit of venting, I guess. 😊
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SP does not apply to orders. Therefore, if you join an order of Pontifical Right you are bound to use the breviary that the order approves and only that breviary. SP makes that very clear when it says that orders must abide by whatever the major superior decides and by common law (the constitutions).

It is incorrect to say that the breviary in English is a personal devotion and that the hours in Latin are truly liturgical. You’re making laws. Those are not the laws of the Church.

You have a vocation problem. You cannot join an order, if you can’t comply.

I will give you a hint, the Divine Office of 1962 was not used by the entire Latin Church. It was only used by diocesan priests. Every religious order had its own breviary… Among the Benedictines, the Rule of St.Benedict allows every abbot to rewrite the breviary according to his wishes. All he has to do is rewrite it and submit it to the CDW for approval. You can have five Benedictine communities using five breviaries all from 1962.

The whole thing with the 1962 breviary is a little exaggerated. It was never the official Catholic breviary. It was one of many Catholic breviaries. It was the most widely used.

In fact, today, there are less versions of the breviary than there were in 1962. The law requires that ll breviaries, including those of the religious orders follow the format of the four volume Christian Prayer. There is consistency in format, even though there are differences in holy days and gestures, etc.

You may want to check with your superior if the breviary that you use is used by the Carmelites.

I hope this helps you a little bit.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
The Little Office of the Virgin Mary is beautiful; but it’s not liturgy. It’s private prayer. It was denied by the CDW around 1985 when people noticed that it was not included in Canon Law. People asked. The answer was that the CDW did not consider it a liturgical prayer of the Church, but a devotional prayer.
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Do you have a reference or exact quote for that? I am really puzzled as to what they could mean by saying it is not a liturgical prayer of the Church. It is obviously a liturgical form of prayer and has been used by the Church for centuries.

Even given that this CDW statement, I do not see how it is relevant to lay people who are under no obligation to pray the Divine Office. For us, the DO is effectively a devotional prayer anyhow.
 
floresco said:
Do you have a reference or exact quote for that? I am really puzzled as to what they could mean by saying it is not a liturgical prayer of the Church. It is obviously a liturgical form of prayer and has been used by the Church for centuries.

Even given that this CDW statement, I do not see how it is relevant to lay people who are under no obligation to pray the Divine Office. For us, the DO is effectively a devotional prayer anyhow.
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It’s only relevant if you want to pray liturgical prayer. Otherwise, it’s not.

As to references, you’ll have to go back to the general chapters of sisters during the 1980s. Sisters were the ones who used the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin instead of the Divine Office. Nuns and male religious always used the Divine Office. When sisters submitted their constitutions for approval, the message that they got back was a quote from Pope Paul VI.

Apostolic Letter Ecclesiae Sanctae of Pope Paul VI,

“20. Although Religious who recite a duly approved Little Office perform the public prayer of the Church (cf. Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium, No. 98), it is nevertheless recommended to the institutes that in place of the Little Office they adopt the Divine Office either in part or in whole so that they may participate more intimately in the liturgical life of the Church…”

However, here was the glitch. That it has to be a little office that is approve as public prayer, not as devotion. The argument at the CDW has been that in the monastic movement, the Little Office of the Virgin Mary was always said with the Divine Office. It did not replace the Divine Office.

Many secular priests used it, until the law was passed that they has to recite the Divine Office. Some continued to use both and some dropped the Little Office.

That’s as much information as I have on it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
JReducation said:
Apostolic Letter Ecclesiae Sanctae of Pope Paul VI,

“20. Although Religious who recite a duly approved Little Office perform the public prayer of the Church (cf. Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium, No. 98), it is nevertheless recommended to the institutes that in place of the Little Office they adopt the Divine Office either in part or in whole so that they may participate more intimately in the liturgical life of the Church…”

However, here was the glitch. That it has to be a little office that is approve as public prayer, not as devotion. The argument at the CDW has been that in the monastic movement, the Little Office of the Virgin Mary was always said with the Divine Office. It did not replace the Divine Office.
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Well I don’t feel like I understand any better after reading that. I just don’t see what this has to do with laity praying the LOBVM, Thanks for trying. 🙂
 
Cider said:
oh man, I have that book of psalms and the font is so teeny tiny. You better have excellent uncorrected vision to read that one.
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More’s the pity I say …

I was hoping to suggest an edition which would find favor with the more traditional minded Latin Catholics.
 
You said the Little Office is not liturgical prayer and you quote the Holy Father in support. Yet Pope Paul clearly states that the Little Office is a part of the public prayer of the Church. Certainly he recommended the adoption of the Greater Office but that didn’t remove the Little Office as a liturgical function. Note that he only made recommendation.

As Pope Benedict stated, the liturgical books of in force in 1962 were never abroad. If one uses the Little Office as printed in the 1962 liturgical books, he is praying the public prayer of the Church.
JReducation said:
It’s only relevant if you want to pray liturgical prayer. Otherwise, it’s not.

As to references, you’ll have to go back to the general chapters of sisters during the 1980s. Sisters were the ones who used the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin instead of the Divine Office. Nuns and male religious always used the Divine Office. When sisters submitted their constitutions for approval, the message that they got back was a quote from Pope Paul VI.

Apostolic Letter Ecclesiae Sanctae of Pope Paul VI,

“20. Although Religious who recite a duly approved Little Office perform the public prayer of the Church (cf. Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium, No. 98), it is nevertheless recommended to the institutes that in place of the Little Office they adopt the Divine Office either in part or in whole so that they may participate more intimately in the liturgical life of the Church…”

However, here was the glitch. That it has to be a little office that is approve as public prayer, not as devotion. The argument at the CDW has been that in the monastic movement, the Little Office of the Virgin Mary was always said with the Divine Office. It did not replace the Divine Office.

Many secular priests used it, until the law was passed that they has to recite the Divine Office. Some continued to use both and some dropped the Little Office.

That’s as much information as I have on it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
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I agree with Laudate. The trad LOBVM is in the 1960 breviary. It’s required to be there, and it’s always been seen as liturgical. Anything referring to it as non-liturgical that I’ve seen is in an LOTH context. But in a SP/UE context, the LOBVM is liturgy.

In the past it was even required for secular priests, who said it right after the corresponding hours of the Roman Office. Many religious added it as well - some trad orders still do.

There is a non-trad LOTH-based LOBVM which is just a devotion, not liturgy officially.

As to the question of joining a third order but praying the 1960 office, of course Br JR is right and you have to follow what you are told. But there are some options.

Trad third orders. I know FSSP has one but it’s not really a 3rd order and they are not really religious.

You could also join an order that used the Roman Office (like the discalced Carmelites; they adopted the BR instead of the Carmelite Rite Office which the OCarms used) and ask for permission to use the trad office privately. Still you would have to use the LOTH when praying publically.

Even if you join an order with its own office historically, they may let you use a trad office, either Roman or their own. But, the next superior could always take this permission away and you’d have to agree.
 
Laudate_Dominum said:
You said the Little Office is not liturgical prayer and you quote the Holy Father in support. Yet Pope Paul clearly states that the Little Office is a part of the public prayer of the Church. Certainly he recommended the adoption of the Greater Office but that didn’t remove the Little Office as a liturgical function. Note that he only made recommendation.

As Pope Benedict stated, the liturgical books of in force in 1962 were never abroad. If one uses the Little Office as printed in the 1962 liturgical books, he is praying the public prayer of the Church.
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The Holy Father made reference to the little offices that are approved. For the approved little offices, one has to go to the CDW.
newyorkcatholic said:
I agree with Laudate. The trad LOBVM is in the 1960 breviary. It’s required to be there, and it’s always been seen as liturgical. Anything referring to it as non-liturgical that I’ve seen is in an LOTH context. But in a SP/UE context, the LOBVM is liturgy.

In the past it was even required for secular priests, who said it right after the corresponding hours of the Roman Office. Many religious added it as well - some trad orders still do.

There is a non-trad LOTH-based LOBVM which is just a devotion, not liturgy officially.

As to the question of joining a third order but praying the 1960 office, of course Br JR is right and you have to follow what you are told. But there are some options.

Trad third orders. I know FSSP has one but it’s not really a 3rd order and they are not really religious.

You could also join an order that used the Roman Office (like the discalced Carmelites; they adopted the BR instead of the Carmelite Rite Office which the OCarms used) and ask for permission to use the trad office privately. Still you would have to use the LOTH when praying publically.

Even if you join an order with its own office historically, they may let you use a trad office, either Roman or their own. But, the next superior could always take this permission away and you’d have to agree.
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What happens in the orders, not the associations such as the FSSP’s third order, those are not real orders. What happens in the orders is that you solemnly promise or you vow to live by the constitution. Whatever is in the constitution is what the superior can allow. Whatever is not in the constitution, the superior has full authority to allow or prohibit. In the case of Carmelites, that would be the priors.

Not knowing what’s in the Carmelite constitution, I cannot say whether they allow a fellow Carmelite to use a different breviary from the rest of the community when praying alone.

I can only speak to the Franciscans on that. We do not allow that. Everyone must use the Franciscan breviary either in their native language or in Latin and even there, the language is to be decided by the superior of the house, not by vote. The only Franciscan breviary that is allowed is the 1970 edition. The exception to this are the Poor Clares, because each house is autonomous. They don’t have to worry about the unity of the order.

As far as the mass in the EF form, one must attend the mass in the form that the community uses. If it’s the EF, so be it. If it’s the OF, so be it. It it’s the Carmelite rite, so be it. However, this obligation only applies when attending mass in community. When attending mass alone, unless there is a statute about it in the constitutions, there is no obligation to attend a specific form.

In my community the statute is very clear. The brothers may attend the EF mass when traveling alone, but are automatically suspended if they choose to attend mass at any chapel or church where the priest is suspended.

When attending community mass, it’s the form that the community uses. The same applies to the seculars.

The rules that govern the attendance at mass are often a little more flexible than those that govern the breviary.

However, if the constitution does not say that the order must use a specific breviary, the superior is free to give permission. He just can’t grant permission for something forbidden by the constitution. Remember, I said that he is free to give permission. I did not say that he must give permission. Ultimately, his role is to decide what is best for the community and for the soul of the individual, but the community comes first. If he feels that giving someone such permission is not going to attract negative attention in the community, he may say, “Go with it when you’re alone.” If he believes that it may attract negative attention, he may say, “No.”

I know, because I’ve been in that position as the superior of a house. Soon I will be a general superior and will be in that position again, only for more people. They’re hard calls to make. However, there is nothing wrong is asking. One won’t know unless one asks.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Laudate_Dominum said:
They’re not a part of the rosary. They were put forth by Bl. Pope John Paul II to the faithful who wished to include them. I don’t pray them for a few reasons. They wreak havoc on the daily and seasonal schedule. They detract from the imagery of the rosary being Our Lady’s Psalter. And the traditional 15 mysteries have been good enough for the likes of Saint Louis and Saint Alphonsus.

Pray them if you want. I won’t condemn you for it. I just don’t want to pray them.
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They most certainly are part of the rosary my friend. JP2 had a greater devotion to the Blessed Mother than any of us could imagine. After he recovered from his attempted assasination, he thanked the Blessed Mother for saving his life. The whole point of having a devotion to Our Lady is so that she can lead us to Christ. Look at JP2’s life. All the suffering he went through, all the tribulation. His holiness was probably on an unimaginable level. He prayed the rosary three times a day and even forgot to eat at times by doing so. The luminous mysteries are a great meditation of Our Lord’s public ministry. By praying the luminous mysteries, we really are going to Christ through Mary. 👍
 
B). Changing the Rosary seems over the top to some traditionalists, despite the high regard in which JP2 was held.
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Any yet, some traditionalists will pray the optional Fatima Prayer which was a change to teh rosary in 20th century.

I think the truth is that it is a post VII development and that is enough for many to stay away.
 
I usually pray the Rosary daily and have done so for many years–decades actually. Long ago, I began to think of the traditional set of Mysteries as a continuum beginning with the first Joyful Mystery, the Annunciation, and concluding with the last Glorious Mystery, Mary as Queen of Heaven. As I contemplated the Mysteries while saying the Rosary over the years, it began to seem as though something about the Word was revealed as the final Joyful Mystery (The Finding in the Temple) was followed by the first Sorrowful Mystery (The Agony in the Garden). “Of course!” I thought. “It is precisely how it happened.” What does it mean? And what is the relationship of joy and sorrow? This is but one example of many, with the process evolving toward the Glorious Mysteries.

It is no doubt an individual experience, but the Luminous Mysteries just didn’t seem to fit in with what I came to see as a continuing process of revelation–which is not to say they are not revelatory in their own way, but rather just not as a contiguous part of the traditional Mysteries. Since I normally pray one set of Mysteries daily, beginning with the Joyful Mysteries on Mondays, it leaves Sunday open. So I often say the Luminous Mysteries on that day. I do not reject them at all. And if a person said only the Luminous Mysteries, and did so every single day, I cannot see any harm. It is an individual preference. But I also think it is no coincidence that the traditional set of Mysteries are arranged as they are, and that the mystery is not necessarily confined to a single Mystery. For instance, why would The Visitation, just in itself, present a mystery?
 
godisgood77 said:
I think the truth is that it is a post VII development and that is enough for many to stay away.
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True for the most part…at least in my case.

Just like the hand holding during the Our Father ‘isn’t wrong’, staying with the tried n true practices also ‘isn’t wrong’. No sense in fixing what is not broken. I can contemplate and reflect on those (luminous) events in the life of Christ without the rosary, and quite often do.
 
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