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2nd_Adam
Guest
I thought there is an account in the OT about swaping babies for food? Help me out here you OT scholars out there.
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grace_singh
Guest
they are waiting for the rest of the prophecies to be fulfilled. as Christ (Messiah) did not fulfil all of the prophecies in His first coming, they conclude that He could not have been the Messiah, and so they still wait for Him.
inicidentally Jews and Christians both wait for Messiah to do many of the same things- rule in Jerusalem, restore Israel, bring peace, and govern the nations in righteousness. for us it will be His second coming, for them His first.
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Kaninchen
Guest
It does make me wonder just what people will believe.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
Why Do the Jews not accept Jesus?
That’s like saying why don’t people accept Jesus.
Many do accpet Him as their Savior.
jewsforjesus.org/
God Bless
www.utahmission.com
www.ChooseYourCross.com
That’s like saying why don’t people accept Jesus.
Many do accpet Him as their Savior.
jewsforjesus.org/
God Bless
www.utahmission.com
www.ChooseYourCross.com
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chosen_people
Guest
Well obviously we don’t bake and eat the murdered little baby Christians as they aren’t kosher, even after we’ve removed all their blood to use in our rituals and to make Matza.
To get back on topic this video might help:
youtube.com/watch?v=PdmGv8XtBjg
To get back on topic this video might help:
youtube.com/watch?v=PdmGv8XtBjg
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MrZetterlund
Guest
"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, “that I will raise to David a branch of righteousness.” (Matt 1:6-16) A king shall prosper and reign, and execute judgement and righteousness in the earth. (Matt 28:18) In His days, (His aproaching millenial kingdom) Judah and Israel will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
JEREMIAH 23:5-6
It HAS to be talking about Jesus.
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Kaninchen
Guest
On a sort of Isaiah WW:XX ‘And he shall stub his toe’/Matthew YY:ZZ ‘And Jesus stubbed his toe’ basis.
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MrZetterlund
Guest
What?
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ralphinal
Guest
Kaninchin is saying something along this line…What?
The prophet says that the Messiah will wear a blue coat.
Jesus had a blue coat.
Jesus is the Messiah.
In other words, the verse used is so general that almost anyone could have fulfilled it
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Kaninchen
Guest
There’s more to it than that, though.
There was a conversation on Apologetics a few months ago where we were talking about the Josh McDowell ‘Evidence That Demands A Verdict’ approach - heaven knows how many links between the Tanakh and the New Testament - and there was some agreement with the point that a lot of them were of the ‘stubbed toe’ variety - ie searching the Tanakh for anything that could (even vaguely) be applied to Jesus - whether or not they involved what even Christians might consider ‘Messianic Prophesy’, never mind what Jews might consider so.
That’s ignoring the question of whether the New Testament is ‘reportage’ or ‘constructed’, ie the Jesus portrayed being made to ‘fit’. To use one of my ‘mantras’ here, Jesus fulfilled all the prophesies that could be fulfilled through text manipulation.
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grace_singh
Guest
there are definate passages in the OT which are Messianic, and recognized as such by Rabbinic / Talmudic authroities.
key words which indicate Messiah is being talked about include “Branch” (especially when linked to King David), “King”, “Servant”, “Shepherd” (also linked to Kingship), and others.
Jewish commentators on scripture, as well as Jewish tradition maintains that Messiah will be from David’s line, be born in Bethlehem, be a Shepherd, bring salvation, suffer for His people, be rejected by them, and rule over all the earth, forever.
He will also be called by the names or attibutes of God, and in Him the Gentiles will trust. whereas Christians clearly see Jesus fulfilling these roles and prophecies, most Jews just do not. when He comes again, He will do all they still expect of Him, restore Israel, bring peace, and rule the nations.
all of the twelve apostles were Jews, as is the Lord Himself, and the early Judeo-Christian community. many Christian communities like the Ethipoian Orthodox and Mar Thoma Christians of India retain a number of Jewish practices, traditions, identity, and various levels of Torah obersvance. the roots are there, one just has to look.
key words which indicate Messiah is being talked about include “Branch” (especially when linked to King David), “King”, “Servant”, “Shepherd” (also linked to Kingship), and others.
Jewish commentators on scripture, as well as Jewish tradition maintains that Messiah will be from David’s line, be born in Bethlehem, be a Shepherd, bring salvation, suffer for His people, be rejected by them, and rule over all the earth, forever.
He will also be called by the names or attibutes of God, and in Him the Gentiles will trust. whereas Christians clearly see Jesus fulfilling these roles and prophecies, most Jews just do not. when He comes again, He will do all they still expect of Him, restore Israel, bring peace, and rule the nations.
all of the twelve apostles were Jews, as is the Lord Himself, and the early Judeo-Christian community. many Christian communities like the Ethipoian Orthodox and Mar Thoma Christians of India retain a number of Jewish practices, traditions, identity, and various levels of Torah obersvance. the roots are there, one just has to look.
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chosen_people
Guest
There are two threads running concurrently on this subject. I would like to post what I posted on the other similar thread when someone asked Jews to give “evidence” as to their beliefs, as I believe it is relevant to the discussion here:
Well actually the Jews have no problem with their eternal covenant with God or with understanding the concept of God which was revealed through the Jewish people for all the world at Mt. Sinai along with the Torah. It is you who claim that the concept of God and Torah is wrong, it is you who claim that God broke His covenant with the Jews, it is you who believe that God made an incorrect covenant and had to make a new one that is basically the opposite of the eternal covenant, that God suddenly became from one to being made up of three, that Torah was no longer relevant, that God suddenly should be viewed in human form and you can make statues of your god in this form and place them in your houses of worship, that the story of Abraham and the binding of his son Isaac is not a polemic against pagan practices but to show that the ultimate act is for the “father” to make a human sacrifice of his “son” for mankind, it is you who believe that human beings are born with the defect of sin and must be saved from this sin, it is you who believes that you are the new Jews, whose scriptures teaches the Jews are in a stupor or have a character flaw for not rejecting their covenant with God and accepting your beliefs, it is your Church that has persecuted and passed laws and written diatribes against the Jews for their belief in God and Torah, it is your Church that has a special prayer for the Jews, and now for some reason, on a Catholic forum, you demand “evidence” from Jews (despite are stupor) to show why your beliefs aren’t true, I have faith in God and Torah and Judaism and the Jewish people. Maybe it’s time the Christians on this forum had faith in their religion without needing our approval or “evidence” as to their beliefs. With all due regret we are unable to help. You can take every Jew in the world and tell him/her to read and interpret Genesis 3:15 and not one of them, no matter how great a scholar, will come up with your religion’s interpretation. We can only show why the Catholic interpretation is incorrect for this passage. However, what is the point to that? If you can not yet grasp the concept of the Creator without human form or the concept of Torah, that is okay with us and you still get to go to the world to come.
Well actually the Jews have no problem with their eternal covenant with God or with understanding the concept of God which was revealed through the Jewish people for all the world at Mt. Sinai along with the Torah. It is you who claim that the concept of God and Torah is wrong, it is you who claim that God broke His covenant with the Jews, it is you who believe that God made an incorrect covenant and had to make a new one that is basically the opposite of the eternal covenant, that God suddenly became from one to being made up of three, that Torah was no longer relevant, that God suddenly should be viewed in human form and you can make statues of your god in this form and place them in your houses of worship, that the story of Abraham and the binding of his son Isaac is not a polemic against pagan practices but to show that the ultimate act is for the “father” to make a human sacrifice of his “son” for mankind, it is you who believe that human beings are born with the defect of sin and must be saved from this sin, it is you who believes that you are the new Jews, whose scriptures teaches the Jews are in a stupor or have a character flaw for not rejecting their covenant with God and accepting your beliefs, it is your Church that has persecuted and passed laws and written diatribes against the Jews for their belief in God and Torah, it is your Church that has a special prayer for the Jews, and now for some reason, on a Catholic forum, you demand “evidence” from Jews (despite are stupor) to show why your beliefs aren’t true, I have faith in God and Torah and Judaism and the Jewish people. Maybe it’s time the Christians on this forum had faith in their religion without needing our approval or “evidence” as to their beliefs. With all due regret we are unable to help. You can take every Jew in the world and tell him/her to read and interpret Genesis 3:15 and not one of them, no matter how great a scholar, will come up with your religion’s interpretation. We can only show why the Catholic interpretation is incorrect for this passage. However, what is the point to that? If you can not yet grasp the concept of the Creator without human form or the concept of Torah, that is okay with us and you still get to go to the world to come.
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chosen_people
Guest
Firstly, it was not meant to insult anyone and I apologize if that was how the post was received. Secondly, please feel free to clarify to me what parts of the post do not represent Christian beliefs and are incorrect so that I can learn and not repeat any misrepresentations in the future. After all my knowledge as to these things is mainly based on posts that I have read on this forum. It may be that I have not understood the intention of the posters or that the posters themselves were not representative of Catholic or Christian beliefs. It may be that my limited knowledge and understanding of your beliefs is incorrect. It is not a matter of what I “would like to think you believe” but rather what I understand you to believe. From that point of view, I would ask you to accept that the post was made in good faith.
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ALotLessThumb
Guest
The problem is both Christianity and Judaism claim to be the ‘true and valid’ descendant of the Second Temple Period, and neither claim is refutable. “Evidence,” by way of prophesy for example, is rather inductive and tendentious. It puts both camps in uncomfortable positions, that over 2000 years of bickering (and violence) has left us with two very separate religious traditions more comfortable talking past each other than acknowledging the similarities, and (the elephant in the room) the heresy they find in each other. 
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MrZetterlund
Guest
Well I don’t know many people who are born of a virgin. -_-
His mother is even acused by historians to have had an affair with a Roman soldier.
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MrZetterlund
Guest
Well, the majority of this is bollocks. But despite the offensive not-true parts, there are a few parts I’d like to go over that are numbered in red:
#1: “31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the LORD” -Jeremiah 31:30-32
#2: The Coming Messiah ] “ But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah (birth place of David and later Jesus Christ,) Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.” -Micah 5:2
#3: “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us." -Daniel 9:16
**He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6**
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MrZetterlund
Guest
Understood, I can see how the majority of what we say can be viewed as offensive or “against you” since it would mean, well, you’d be wrong. But it’s not a message of anti-semetism, but a fulfillment of old ways.
#1:We view God as human now because it was prophecied:
“For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” -Isaiah 9:6
We don’t “worsip statues” of Jesus.
#2: We donnot view ourselves as the “new Jew” in town. It was written:
“ I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles," -Isaiah 42:6
#3: the rest of it I just don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. ^_^"
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Kaninchen
Guest
The point is that perceived links between the Tanakh and the New Testament run from the ‘serious’ ones that are the core of Christian apologetics to the highly speculative - (as with my joke ‘Jesus stubbed his toe’) that certain apologists (who shall be nameless, like Josh McDowell) use as a kind of scattergun approach to ‘evidence’.
After many years spent on message boards where this topic has come up, there are a few things I’ve learned about the problems involved in discussing it.
One is the presumption, by Christians, that Judaism is ‘Christianity minus Jesus’ and Christianity is ‘Judaism plus Jesus’, rather like a jigsaw puzzle that would show the same picture if the Jesus pieces were added. The thing is that Judaism is a very, very different religion from Christianity, a very different mindset, a very different focus.
Another, I describe as the problem that Christians read the scriptures ‘backwards’ and Jews read them ‘forwards’ which ends up in a situation where Jesus makes perfect sense to Christians and no sense at all to Jews - you end up with ‘God’ and we end up with ‘yet another, not very original, argumentative rabbi with over-devoted followers’ (or words to that effect).
Underlying all this, moreover, is that, to Christians, the New Testament is ‘reportage’, to us it’s nothing of the kind - quote bits of it or central beliefs within it and it’s just like a Muslim quoting the Qur’an (or a Mormon quoting the Book of Mormon) to a Catholic.
These are just some reasons ‘Why don’t Jews believe in Jesus?’ conversations end up with both sides talking at one another rather than to or with one another.
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MrZetterlund
Guest
I read the Old Testament and when I got to the covenant of Abraham, I became concerned about where God would place me in His plan. Because I loved God, but I was a gentile. But who other than Jesus fulfills these prophecies? You chalk Him up to a rabbi? I’ve only heard of one rabbi, then. Because Jesus certainly brought God to the world. And your mindset isn’t very different from ours, either. You’re waiting for the Messiah. We’re waiting for the Messiah again.
How could the Messiah establish His kingdom if word of His covenant hasn’t reached the ends of the world?
The differece between the New Testament and the Koran or the Book of Mormon is it doesn’t contradict the Old Testament. In fact, I can preach the gospel from the Old Testament. Why ignore your own prophecies?
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MrZetterlund
Guest
bring it on!!!
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