Why do we assume that animals don't have rational minds?

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Why this need to define rationality only in terms of morality?

Only? Is it unworthy for consideration of what makes us unique?

A sense of morality is almost certainly only possesed by Man. But the op is asking about rationality. And as I have said, the two are connected but not necessarily so. By all means consider morality to be what makes us uniquely human. But you can consider our control of fire or our ability to juggle or to whistle dixie as well if you are so disposed.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

One definition would simply be an ability to reason.

What is your definition of an ability to reason. Let us say that a monkey sees a banana hanging from a high cross wire and a ladder nearby. He then takes the ladder, uses it to climb up and reach for the banana which he then eats. Is that rational thinking?

I know some people who would struggle with that. But yeah, that shows rational behaviour. As do crows:

 

[Rau]

But you can consider our control of fire or our ability to juggle or to whistle dixie as well if you are so disposed.

You haven’t seen monkeys taught to juggle? Or parrots whistling Dixie?

 

[Agnus-Dei]

For some, no explanation will ever be enough to sway their preconceived notions.
Dominus vobiscum

 

[Gorgias]

AlNg:

I would say that animals such as dogs or cats do have a certain amount of intelligence and feeling. However, i don’t know of any mathematical theorems, histories or novels written by a non-human animal. Many non-human animals have means of communicating and perhaps there is a language of sorts, but I am not aware of any written languages developed by a non-human animal.

Is the written word your requirement for rationality?

I would respond in this way:

• there are behaviors in humans which we declare to be the result of rational thought
• there are behaviors in animals which, on the surface, have the appearance of commonality with human behaviors
• the presence of these animal behaviors does not imply rationality in animals

BUT…

• the absence of even these on-the-surface-similar behaviors does imply the absence of rationality in animals

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

But you can consider our control of fire or our ability to juggle or to whistle dixie as well if you are so disposed.

You haven’t seen monkeys taught to juggle? Or parrots whistling Dixie?

S’been a long time since I’ve been to the circus, Rau.

Edit: But did you check out the video of the birds? They weren’t taught to do that.

 

[Freddy]

For some, no explanation will ever be enough to sway their preconceived notions.
Dominus vobiscum

Amen to that.

 

[Freddy]

• the presence of these animal behaviors does not imply rationality in animals

Could you check out the video linked a few posts north of this one? How does that not imply rational behaviour?

 

[Gripper]

Why is it a dogmatic assertion in philosophy that animals don’t have rational minds?

Just watch a dog.

I have a green ball, the dog wants it more than anything in the world, when he has it he is happy but now I have a red ball and he doesn’t care about the green ball he wants the red ball.

Rational mind?

 

[Gorgias]

Could you check out the video linked a few posts north of this one? How does that not imply rational behaviour?

Let’s break it down:

• Crows are trained to drop rocks into a tube.
• Crows see food.
• Crows see a tube.
• Crows do what they’ve been trained to do.
• Crows eat.

How is this not just “Pavlov’s dog”?

 

[EndTimes]

Why is it a dogmatic assertion in philosophy that animals don’t have rational minds? Since it’s impossible to know the thoughts of others; how would one be able to prove these animals aren’t rational?

It’s probably impossible to respond to the assertion of the question unless one knows exactly how “rational” is understood by the questioner?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Could you check out the video linked a few posts north of this one? How does that not imply rational behaviour?

Let’s break it down:

• Crows are trained to drop rocks into a tube.
• Crows see food.
• Crows see a tube.
• Crows do what they’ve been trained to do.
• Crows eat.

How is this not just “Pavlov’s dog”?

Pavolv’s dog involved conditioning. There was no such conditioning here. And if you are unimpressed with a single action then how about a series of actions:

 

[Gorgias]

Pavolv’s dog involved conditioning. There was no such conditioning here.

How do you know that there wasn’t conditioning in the training to drop rocks into a tube?

Moreover, isn’t the result of receiving food when dropping rocks in itself ‘conditioning’?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Pavolv’s dog involved conditioning. There was no such conditioning here.

How do you know that there wasn’t conditioning in the training to drop rocks into a tube?

Moreover, isn’t the result of receiving food when dropping rocks in itself ‘conditioning’?

I can only offer evidence. You are free to interpret it as you wish.

 

[Gorgias]

I can only offer evidence. You are free to interpret it as you wish.

No… you’re actually interpreting the evidence you present. I’m disagreeing with your interpretation, not with the evidence itself.

 

[EndTimes]

There’s lots of common ground between beasts and humans…

They have memory… They do not want to die… Their young like to frolic… Etc…

They never evolve in the mental/technological, cultural and civilizational senses as humans have.

 

[o_mlly]

Ask Fido, who is lying at your feet, if he wants to go for a walk. If Fido jumps up, begins to pant with his tongue hanging out OR doesn’t move at all, he’s probably irrational. But if Fido lifts a paw up as if to indicate he needs a minute to reflect then he might be rational.

 

[Maelstrom1]

The Ethical Dog | Scientific American

 

[Maelstrom1]

Experiments suggest dogs and monkeys have a human-like sense of morality

 

[AlNg]

Ask Fido

In some cultures it is OK for humans to eat dogs. Other cultures, however, find it objectionable.