Why do we believe in eternal torment for the unbelievers?

[mesl4]

So now that the mormons have left the neighborhood for the most part, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have come. I usually love inviting these types in to hope to convert them (thought I know it’s a long shot), but I guess these days in my “Lost Sheep” condition, maybe it’s not the best thing to do. I told them I have my hands full with studying Catholicism right now so I don’t have time to entertain another religion and that I’d never become a JW, but of course, that doesn’t stop them. I told them I was interested in reading any responses they had to apostolic succession/keys to the kingdom/Peter the Rock/authority to forgive sins, etc. They have this great book ,’ Reasoning from the Scriptures" that actually has some great info for any Christian to use for their non-believer friends, but I stuck to reading the sections that I knew we differed on. What really stumped me was reading the stuff on hell/hades/sheol/gehenna, eternal torment, etc. There are tons of references in the Bible to our spirits not existing after death, so why did we (Christians) decide to conform to the idea that they will live eternally in a place of torment or paradise? I know we will have eternal life w/Jesus in the resurrection, in our new bodies, but can you help me reconcile these verses that say we don’t have consciousness after death?
Eccl 9:5,10 “The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all…there is no work nor devising nor kowledge nor wisdom in Sheol the place where you are going.”
Eccl 12:7 “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit (ru’ach = life-force) returns to the true God who gave it”
Eccl 3:19 (man and beast have the same kind of spirit)
Ps 146:4 :His spirit goes out he goes back to his ground in that day his thoughts do perish."
Ezek 18:4 “the soul (being) that is sinning - itself will die”
the incident in 1 Samuel 28:3-20 is used to show that the spirit Saul saw was not really Samuel. Also, whoever it was,he was awakened so that means the spirit isn’t always awake/conscious when it dies."

In reference to hell meaning simply death/grave:
even good people go there : Job 14:13, Acts 2:25-27 referring to Ps 16:8-11 Jesus dying: "you will not leave my soul in hell/the grave, nor suffer you Holy One to see corruption.
People get out of hell: Rev 20:13,14 - death and dead (hell and hades) destroyed in lake of fire.

The verses that made me think there was an eternal punishment were:
Matt 25:46 "THese shall go away into everlasting punishment (kolasis in greek which means correction/punishment/penalty/cutting off/lopping off)
and 2 Thess 1:9 "They shall suffer the punishment of t eternal destruction (olethros = ruin/destroy/death).
But as you can see these verses can also just mean eternal death a a punishment since we know “the punishment for sin is death” and that would make it consistent with the other Bible verses.

Anyway, any other verse you come up with that can support and eternal torment for the unbelievers, please explain it in a way that will make sense /not contradict the previous ones I’ve listed since we know the Bible can’t contradict itself. Let’s just look at it for what it says without bringing in our previous prejudices/ideas that might not be scriptural. We might need to reconsider our beliefs…

 

[mmmcounts]

I don’t say this very often, but I do believe I have exactly what you’re looking for.

the-highway.com/articleMay05.html

Dr. Talbot’s a stud. This is worth a pretty careful read.

 

[Eucharisted]

Jehovah Witnesses aren’t Christian. Learning about Christian belief from them is like learning about Jewish belief from a Muslim.

Here’s some articles on life after death: catholic.com/library/last_things.asp

Here’s an article on Jehovah Witnesses: catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9502fea5.asp

 

[Cashue]

So now that the mormons have left the neighborhood for the most part, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have come. I usually love inviting these types in to hope to convert them (thought I know it’s a long shot), but I guess these days in my “Lost Sheep” condition, maybe it’s not the best thing to do. I told them I have my hands full with studying Catholicism right now so I don’t have time to entertain another religion and that I’d never become a JW, but of course, that doesn’t stop them. I told them I was interested in reading any responses they had to apostolic succession/keys to the kingdom/Peter the Rock/authority to forgive sins, etc. They have this great book ,’ Reasoning from the Scriptures" that actually has some great info for any Christian to use for their non-believer friends, but I stuck to reading the sections that I knew we differed on. What really stumped me was reading the stuff on hell/hades/sheol/gehenna, eternal torment, etc. There are tons of references in the Bible to our spirits not existing after death, so why did we (Christians) decide to conform to the idea that they will live eternally in a place of torment or paradise? I know we will have eternal life w/Jesus in the resurrection, in our new bodies, but can you help me reconcile these verses that say we don’t have consciousness after death?
Eccl 9:5,10 “The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all…there is no work nor devising nor kowledge nor wisdom in Sheol the place where you are going.”
Eccl 12:7 “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit (ru’ach = life-force) returns to the true God who gave it”
Eccl 3:19 (man and beast have the same kind of spirit)
Ps 146:4 :His spirit goes out he goes back to his ground in that day his thoughts do perish."
Ezek 18:4 “the soul (being) that is sinning - itself will die”
the incident in 1 Samuel 28:3-20 is used to show that the spirit Saul saw was not really Samuel. Also, whoever it was,he was awakened so that means the spirit isn’t always awake/conscious when it dies."

In reference to hell meaning simply death/grave:
even good people go there : Job 14:13, Acts 2:25-27 referring to Ps 16:8-11 Jesus dying: "you will not leave my soul in hell/the grave, nor suffer you Holy One to see corruption.
People get out of hell: Rev 20:13,14 - death and dead (hell and hades) destroyed in lake of fire.

The verses that made me think there was an eternal punishment were:
Matt 25:46 "THese shall go away into everlasting punishment (kolasis in greek which means correction/punishment/penalty/cutting off/lopping off)
and 2 Thess 1:9 "They shall suffer the punishment of t eternal destruction (olethros = ruin/destroy/death).
But as you can see these verses can also just mean eternal death a a punishment since we know “the punishment for sin is death” and that would make it consistent with the other Bible verses.

Anyway, any other verse you come up with that can support and eternal torment for the unbelievers, please explain it in a way that will make sense /not contradict the previous ones I’ve listed since we know the Bible can’t contradict itself. Let’s just look at it for what it says without bringing in our previous prejudices/ideas that might not be scriptural. We might need to reconsider our beliefs…

Jehovah’s Witnesses always refer to the bible but they are forgetting that the bible is not the end of the matter - the Catholic church provided further information to complete the bible and it is to church teaching, not only the bible, that you must look to.

As for the verses, when the bible says in ecclesiastes 9: 5 “For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more…” it’s is clearly saying that humans are conscience they will die one day, but the dead are only consciouse in the afterlife. Their “Their love also, and their hatred, and their envy are all perished” as of this world only.

When the bible says the “spirit returns to God” it clearly means that the evil spirits of the godless go to hell where they burn eternally, they are with god only in that their eternal suffering is approved by God.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Mes,

The whole story of Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham shows clearly that we are conscious after death. So if there are other passages in the bible that seem to contradict that, they have to be re-interpreted within the context of the whole bible.

Verbum

 

[Joe_Kelley]

41* Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; . . .* And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Matthew 25:41-45

24* “And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Isaiah 66:24

However, note that the JWs have their own bible in which they have “corrected” some inconvenient passages.

 

[Cashue]

Matthew 25:41-45

Isaiah 66:24

However, note that the JWs have their own bible in which they have “corrected” some inconvenient passages.

Precisely, the Jehovah’s Witness view that these are simply illustrations are clearly wrong, because as we have seen the bible does not say that the dead “know nothing” (Ecc 9: 5) - it means that they only know things seperate from God.

The worm quite literally will burn and burn and the evil will suffer eternally in pain, this is God’s will and part of the sacred revelation of the church. The Jehovah’s Witness, by sticking only to scripture without the church to guide them mis-understand and look at passages that speak of “sheep” and “goats” as illustrations when Jesus was clearly speaking literally of his followers being literal sheep and those that reject him as goats that will burn and burn.

Thus is the divine revelation through the church.

 

[mesl4]

=Joe Kelley;5352177]Matthew 25:41-45
Quote:
41* Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; . . .* And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Quote:
24* “And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Isaiah 66:24

Yes, Like you say, they change the meaning because they say that “eternal punishment” can also mean eternal separation/loppin off/cutting off in which case it does not conclude consciousness is necessary. The Isaiah verse also doesn’t necessarily mean they are conscious.It can simply mean the body will left in decay. Obviously the worm and fire won’t do anything to our spirit, just our body. Gehenna was the place often referred to as hell in the bible and that was a location where dead bodies were dumped to be burned. Live people were never thrown in there. Plus, if God is more merciful than we are, and I don’t know anyone who would actually put someone in eternal punishment and torture, than I don’t see how God could do that. He is just, but his justice was paid through Jesus so we are left w/his mercy. No matter how bad my child was, and how defiant/wayward, or horrendous, I would never put them into eternal torment. If they were really dangerous and Hannibal Lector/Charles Manson (sp?) -likeI would definitly want them locked up or put to sleep out of harm’s way, but not tortured. That’s just brutally barbaric it seems.

 

[mesl4]

Jehovah’s Witnesses always refer to the bible but they are forgetting that the bible is not the end of the matter - the Catholic church provided further information to complete the bible and it is to church teaching, not only the bible, that you must look to.

As for the verses, when the bible says in ecclesiastes 9: 5 “For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more…” it’s is clearly saying that humans are conscience they will die one day, but the dead are only consciouse in the afterlife. Their “Their love also, and their hatred, and their envy are all perished” as of this world only.

.

That doesn’t make sense to me. The whole book of Ecclesiastes is talking about what’s the point of anything since we’ll be dead someday and it has an attitude of just live it up now because there’s nothing left after this life…“eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.” type thing. It also was pretty typical Jewish belief in no after life so it does seem true that the Church was influences a lot by Greek culture to come up w/these Dante/fire and brimstone / immortal spirit ideas. No?

 

[scameter18]

This is an issue I have contemplated and studied alot myself in my time in RCIA, especially with my RCIA director. There are a few things to keep in mind when considering this issue (and, of course, all my opinions):

1. There is a difference between eternal and everlasting. Eternal means until the end of time, which will come in the Last Day. But everlasting means forever, even after time.
2. The OT is different than the NT. It is not wrong, but the NT changed some things because of Jesus’s actions. Before Christ, everyone who died went to a holding place, their souls essentially staying with their bodies in the ground. Hence why when Jesus descended into the Earth, He freed them. Satan had them kept in the dirt with their dead bodies because of original sin, when our bodies died and souls “died” because they remained with our dead bodies after life. But after Christ, our souls were redeemed from original sin in the sense that their original, everlasting life was returned to them. Now, when we die, we are immediately judged: either for eternal punishment in Hell, purification in purgatory (see 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 for a NT proof of purgatory), or in Heaven to pray for people to God in awaiting on the resurrection of our bodies in the Renewed Earth in the End of Time. The biggest example of this is the Lazarus and the Rich Man parable in Luke’s Gospel.
3. It is very difficult to get into Hell. To do so, you have to have never been baptized, know about the Church and it’s teachings, and with full and complete knowledge deny God and sin mortally, with little to no prayer from others, and commit the unforgivable sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (which is denying God’s call), to go to Hell. Otherwise, you’ll go to purgatory or Heaven.

 

[Jay3gsm]

1. It is very difficult to get into Hell. To do so, you have to have never been baptized, know about the Church and it’s teachings, and with full and complete knowledge deny God and sin mortally, with little to no prayer from others, and commit the unforgivable sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (which is denying God’s call), to go to Hell. Otherwise, you’ll go to purgatory or Heaven.

I’m not overly convinced that it is so difficult as you state. We know there are many who are in Hell, and they are there because no one would pray for the, or do penance for them, and because of sins against sexual impurity. The easy road leads to Hell, it is the harder road to get to Heaven.

 

[Cachonga]

Remember, we are body, soul and spirit. The body dies and goes back to dust. The soul and spirit live on (and we will get a new body in the resurrection [Matt 28:30, Mark 12:25]).

The story of Lazarus and the rich man was a true story, not a parable. We know this because Jesus used a proper name (Lazarus), whereas in a parable, He simply uses terms like “a certain man”, “a Levite”, “a priest”, etc… While He used a similar term in regard to the rich man, once He named Lazarus, this changed it completely from a parable to a true story (it would be similar to someone saying something like, “There was a certain politician who had been very successful and achieved great honor. And there was a certain intern name Monica.”). Perhaps scamete18 can find us the “official”, interpretation of this story as “infallibly” defined by the church?

scameter18:

1. It is very difficult to get into Hell. To do so, you have to have never been baptized, know about the Church and it’s teachings, and with full and complete knowledge deny God and sin mortally, with little to no prayer from others, and commit the unforgivable sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (which is denying God’s call), to go to Hell. Otherwise, you’ll go to purgatory or Heaven.

So what about Matt 7:13-14 (“Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!” DR)? I guess you think we should also ignore Matt 7:15 (“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” DR)? I would suggest you look at Matt 12:30 (“He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.” DR)!

Cashue seems to think that JW’s follow Sola Scriptura (I certainly got that impression). However, that is NOT correct! While they DO follow THEIR TRANSLATION, they also rely on the “infallible” teaching authority of their church leaders (sound familiar?) to tell them what their scriptures mean. If you would like some good info on JW’s (specifically, to counter their claims), I highly recommend this site (sure, it belongs to an alledged anti-catholic, but he works at converting JW’s and others, and this site points directly to the JW material, so don’t worry about “catching” something).

 

[ML561]

I really cannot believe that God would be so cruel as to send people to Hell just because they have no one to pray for them! That is pure and simple meanness! So therefore I pray daily for those who are not being prayed for, but I still think it’s mean. I think, for instance, of poor people who are being abused, especially children. Well I could go on and on but it is just plain mean and if that is indeed the case I’ll take on the responsibility of praying for these unknown and obscure people in the face of a cruel God. So sue me! Some of these poor people are living a hell on earth, and He’s sending them to an eternal Hell because no one prays? This is infuriating. Mean,mean, mean.

 

[PJM]

mesl4 What really stumped me was reading the stuff on hell, eternal torment, etc. There are tons of references in the Bible to our spirits not existing after death, so why did we (Christians) decide to conform to the idea that they will live eternally in a place of torment or paradise? I know we will have eternal life w/Jesus in the resurrection, in our new bodies, but can you help me reconcile these verses that say we don’t have consciousness after death?

***In order to fully respond to your questions I need to introduce two points not yet in evidence.

1. You are quoting highly selected and limited verses [huge risk of being out of context] from the OT, whose primary purposes are a History of the Jewish nation; God’s chosen people, and Prophecy of things to come; both lead to and by necessity are incomplete without the NT, whose purpose is to fulfill and complete in a PERFECT way, the OT.
2. The Concept of Heaven had yet to be introduced, and the common OT understanding of God, was one of “Might and Vengence” as they were either unwilling or unable to see the Love of Yahweh God manifested in His Just actions.

Eccl 9: 5,10

*“The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all. There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol the place where you are going.”

If one read verses 1-10, one gains a fuller understanding. One who in life is aware that we will face a final judgement at death on how we choose to live, is aware of both the possibility of reward or punishment, and lives accordingly. One who is “dead”[spiritually] is unaware of what is to come and thus lives life, as though there will be no judgement.

Heaven Jn. 14; 1-3; Hell Jude verses 5-7

Eccl 12:7 “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit (ru’ach = life-force) returns to the true God who gave it”

Is saying only that all will face death. It also speaks of a “spiritual death. Verse 3 reminds us to not follow evil example.

Eccl 3:19 (man and beast have the same kind of spirit)

V 19: “For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.”

What is specifically addressed here is “ only the mortal body.” In this sense the author claims “an equality.” It is only a philosophical musing, not a theological reflection or teaching.

Ps 146:4: His spirit goes out he goes back to his ground in that day his thoughts do perish."

V 4: “When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish.”

Gen. 3:19

Ezek 18:4 “the soul (being) that is sinning - itself will die”

V 4: “Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins shall die.” Read v 5-9 to understand.

Haydock’s CC: Ver. 4. “Mine. He insinuates the vocation of the Gentiles and the general redemption. All will be treated according to their works” [if one dies in Mortal sin, such have condemned themself to hell. Pjm]

The incident in 1 Samuel 28:3-20 is used to show that the spirit Saul saw was not really Samuel. Also, whoever it was, he was awakened so that means the spirit isn’t always awake/conscious when it dies."

V 15-16 “Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?”

Sorry but that how I read it.

Even good people go there: Job 14:13, Acts 2:25-27 referring to Ps 16:8-11 Jesus dying: "you will not leave my soul in hell/the grave, nor suffer you Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 16: 8-11 8 “I keep the LORD always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my soul rejoices; my body also dwells secure. For thou dost not give me up to Sheol, or let thy godly one see the Pit. Thou dost show me the path of life; in thy presence there is fullness of joy, in thy right hand are pleasures for evermore.”

Speaks of salvation [heaven] being possible in and through God. 1 Thess. 5: 60-10; Heb, 5:9; 2 Tim. 2: 8-11.

People get out of hell: Rev 20:13,14 - death and dead (hell and Hades) destroyed in lake of fire.

Again better context is required, Read v 7- 15. This is speaking of the Second and final judgement when everyone living and dead will be called before the Throne of God. 1 Pet. 4: 4-5; 1 Tim. 4: 1

The verses that made me think there was an eternal punishment were: Matt 25:46 "These shall go away into everlasting .

Also read Heaven: Jn.5:11-15; 2 Cor. 4: 17-18; 1 Tim.6: 11-12; Heb. 5:11-14; Rom. 6: 22-23.

On Hell: Jude v 5-7; Mt. 25: 40-41; Mk. 3:28-29; and Mt. 18:7-9**

 

[mesl4]

If one read verses 1-10, one gains a fuller understanding. One who in life is aware that we will face a final judgement at death on how we choose to live, is aware of both the possibility of reward or punishment, and lives accordingly. One who is “dead”[spiritually] is unaware of what is to come and thus lives life, as though there will be no judgement.

We/They are not denying the fact of eternal paradise w/their resurrected body, or denying that all will be resurrected and face judgement, the issue is what that judgement is. We know the penalty for sin is death.

Also read Heaven: Jn.5:11-15; 2 Cor. 4: 17-18; 1 Tim.6: 11-12; Heb. 5:11-14; Rom. 6: 22-23.

On Hell: Jude v 5-7; Mt. 25: 40-41; Mk. 3:28-29; and Mt. 18:7-9

Those hell verses really dont help when we consider what the JWs say that hell simply means eternal “lopping off” or separation/ death. So, when all are raised and judged, some will be rewarded w/ everlasting life in paradise, the rest will be destroyed in the lake of fire that was meant for the devil and bad angels. Key is “destroyed” and the eternal torment like they say, the word can just as well be translated eternal cutting off. So, they will be eternally separated and dead. No chance of resurrection. Gehenna was a place DEAD bodies were burned ,not live people. Even if live people were thrown there, they would be destroyed, not kept alive burning and suffering for all time. Plus, to be consistent w/the old testament, that death was always translated as cutting off/separation/death, not eternal torture that lasts forever and ever.

 

[PJM]

We/They are not denying the fact of eternal paradise w/their resurrected body, or denying that all will be resurrected and face judgement, the issue is what that judgement is. We know the penalty for sin is death.

Those hell verses really dont help when we consider what the JWs say that hell simply means eternal “lopping off” or separation/ death. So, when all are raised and judged, some will be rewarded w/ everlasting life in paradise, the rest will be destroyed in the lake of fire that was meant for the devil and bad angels. Key is “destroyed” and the eternal torment like they say, the word can just as well be translated eternal cutting off. So, they will be eternally separated and dead. No chance of resurrection. Gehenna was a place DEAD bodies were burned ,not live people. Even if live people were thrown there, they would be destroyed, not kept alive burning and suffering for all time. Plus, to be consistent w/the old testament, that death was always translated as cutting off/separation/death, not eternal torture that lasts forever and ever.

*So what about the rest of the world’s sinners? JW’s do not beleive in God, Jesus as God, the Trinity, heaven or hell nor the bible. It is NOT a religion it is a cult. They can beleive waht they will, but if its not the truth, [we can know its not, by simple deduced logic, then if they do not amend their beliefs and practice, they will find out the reality the HOT WAY!COLOR]

COLOR]. So, when all are raised and judged,

*** indeed all will be raised at the second and final “judgement.” The word “judgement” in this application is an incomplete truth. We judge ourselves by the choices we make everyday of our life’s. Christ simply affirms and confirms what we have decided for ourselves.***

. Key is “destroyed” and the eternal torment like they say, the word can just as well be translated eternal cutting off. So, they will be eternally separated and dead.

Dead yes, BUT ONLY the physical body. Humanity consist of both MATTER [physical] and SPIRIT [purely spiritual]; in a very limited way in the very image of our God. [Gen.1]

Yes the body dies and returns to dust. But the SPIRIT that actaully gives and sustains life, our souls continue to live, and will at the second Judgement be reunited with out then Glorified Bodies.

Our souls do not die, and it is the soul that is alive to suffer either eternal Glory, or eternal damnation! The GREATEST suffering of the soul will be the knowledge of the reality of God, God perfect goodness, and perfect Justice. The soul will long to be united with the God that they are forced to admit does exist, and know that their life actions, along with God’s perfect Juctice will deprove them from union with God for all od time.

No chance of resurrection.

***I suspect we agree on ths point but not in the manner expressed.

All will experience the Second Judgement, all will rise and come before the Throne of God, and all will be united with their now Glorified bodies to suffer or to praise God for eternity.***

Plus, to be consistent w/the old testament, that death was always translated as cutting off/separation/death, not eternal torture that lasts forever and ever./

***Not so. Please show me the Scripture your thinking of.

Becasue God is all good, and only all good perfectely, God is and must be, and has to be perfectly just and fair.

Thus if the Good souls get to experience the joy of being in God’s Divine presence for eternity; then on the same just scale, those who are in hell. will most definitey, rightly, fairly and justly suffer enoumous pain for all eterinity.***

Love and prayers,*

 

[mantim]

We/They are not denying the fact of eternal paradise w/their resurrected body, or denying that all will be resurrected and face judgement, the issue is what that judgement is. We know the penalty for sin is death.

Those hell verses really dont help when we consider what the JWs say that hell simply means eternal “lopping off” or separation/ death. So, when all are raised and judged, some will be rewarded w/ everlasting life in paradise, the rest will be destroyed in the lake of fire that was meant for the devil and bad angels. Key is “destroyed” and the eternal torment like they say, the word can just as well be translated eternal cutting off. So, they will be eternally separated and dead. No chance of resurrection. Gehenna was a place DEAD bodies were burned ,not live people. Even if live people were thrown there, they would be destroyed, not kept alive burning and suffering for all time. Plus, to be consistent w/the old testament, that death was always translated as cutting off/separation/death, not eternal torture that lasts forever and ever./QUote

The Authority for Scriptual interpretation/commentary has always been held by the Magesterium (teaching office) of the Catholic Church. The Magesterium set the Canon of the New Testament. This Authority was never transferred to private interpretation. Private interpretation is often knee-jerk, anecdotal and retro-fitted to accomodate the Theology of that particular denomination.

Therefore, the dogma of the Catholic Church is Jesus Christ. Dogma has been established since the death of St. John (90 A.D) Its as true as gravity…count on it…

 

[mesl4]

So what about the rest of the world’s sinners? JW’s do not beleive in God, Jesus as God, the Trinity, heaven or hell nor the bible. It is NOT a religion it is a cult. They can beleive waht they will, but if its not the truth, [we can know its not, by simple deduced logic, then if they do not amend their beliefs and practice, they will find out the reality the HOT WAY!COLOR]

Actually they do believe in God and that Jesus is his son just as the Bible teaches. They don’t believe his son is the same as him (and neither do Trinitarians)but that he is the image of him, the first of his creations (Read Proverbs 8:22-31 shows he was created unless yo usay that’s not talking about Jesus, but who else could it be?). They believe Jesus was the first of creations and through him God made everything. Jesus can be called God meaning “mighty one”, etc. Anyway, they have tons of Bible based quotes to support their beliefs. It’s more believable to me that the Catholic dogma because at least it is right out of the Bible.

Dead yes, BUT ONLY the physical body

 

[mesl4]

The Authority for Scriptual interpretation/commentary has always been held by the Magesterium (teaching office) of the Catholic Church. The Magesterium set the Canon of the New Testament. This Authority was never transferred to private interpretation. Private interpretation is often knee-jerk, anecdotal and retro-fitted to accomodate the Theology of that particular denomination.

Therefore, the dogma of the Catholic Church is Jesus Christ. Dogma has been established since the death of St. John (90 A.D) Its as true as gravity…count on it

That doesn’t mean it’s right/true that they are the only ones who can teach/interpret. Just because they say so. How convenient for them. If all they did was base their dogma on clear apostle teaching’s that would be fine, but they’ve gone way past that.

 

[spauline]

That doesn’t mean it’s right/true that they are the only ones who can teach/interpret. Just because they say so. How convenient for them. If all they did was base their dogma on clear apostle teaching’s that would be fine, but they’ve gone way past that.

again, mesl, believing Christ is not the Infinite God goes hand in hand with not believing in eternal hell.

If you were raped and discarded, who would you feel?

Is the offense against you merely that you will be sore for a few weeks?

Is it not that you are immeasurably insulted?

You are not understanding the nature of sin.

Mortal sin is the preference of a finite created good to the infinite, uncreated good, which is God.

If your husband told you his golf clubs, which can neither hear nor see nor walk nor love, were more important and meaningful than you, how would you feel?

If you were regarded as only worth your sexual organs for pleasure, how would you feel?

And therefore, in the garden, Adam and Eve symbolically said that a mere finite pleasure (a piece of physical fruit) is a superior good to Infinite, Everlasting Truth and Love. THAT is IMMEASURABLY insulting to the dignity of God.

How do we repay an immeasurable insult? We cannot. For if a woman is called to give and receive intellectual and willed love with God and all the saints, FOREVER AND EVER, then if a man treats the woman like she is only worth her temporal body, he has insulted her to a degree that is immeasurable. Therefore, if she is called to give and receive love forever without end, the unrepetant insulting rapist must suffer TORMENT WITHOUT end, FOREVER.

In a similar vein, if Christ is only A god, and not THE INFINITE God, then neither can his suffering atone for our immeasurable offence.

Infinite, Everlasting God, infinite punishment.