Why do we believe in eternal torment for the unbelievers?

[mantim]

That doesn’t mean it’s right/true that they are the only ones who can teach/interpret. Just because they say so. How convenient for them. If all they did was base their dogma on clear apostle teaching’s that would be fine, but they’ve gone way past that.

Thats exactly what it means. The authority to interpret/comment solely remains with magesterium (teaching office) which canonized in the first place. Private interpretation creates more confusion. The Authority was NEVER transfered by the Holy Spirit to the Reform movement. If it was, isn’t it plausible that there would have been just ONE Protestant denomination and not over 33,000?..or better yet, a 3rd newer testament of public Revelation? Jesus and the Catholic Church are one in the same, always has been and always will. Just like gravity…count on it…peace be with you…

 

[PJM]

mesl4
Actually they do believe in God and that Jesus is his son just as the Bible teaches. *They don’t believe his son is the same as him *(and neither do Trinitarians)but that he is the image of him, the first of his creations (Read Proverbs 8:22-31 shows he was created unless yo usay that’s not talking about Jesus, but who else could it be?). They believe Jesus was the first of creations and through him God made everything. Jesus can be called God meaning “mighty one”, etc. Anyway, they have tons of Bible based quotes to support their beliefs. It’s more believable to me that the Catholic dogma because at least it is right out of the Bible.

Wow

---

So your telling us: That the Deity we know as the Triune Godhead is part of their belief? I don’t think so. Nor do they believe in heaven or hell, rather they hold to some sort of perfect earth after death, filled with all one likes.

Your saying they belief in Jesus as the “first born” [but our Jesus is 1. The Son of God 2. Is too God co equal and co eternal 3. Lived on planet earth as BOTH true God and True Man for a period of 33 years. If as you state their Jesus was the first born, how old is he?
And they hold Jesus was nothing more than a prophet. NOT THE SAME JESUS, sorry 4 you. **

Indeed Proverbs is talking about “the Son of God” we now know as Jesus, who like I said is too FULLY GOD, co equal in everyway, and co-Eternal as is the Holy Spirit; the 3td. person of the Trinity. It is God’s Will that He make himself known to us in this manner. This too is bivlical proveable.

They show how the word in early translations for soul really means “living being” not the same as Spirit. The Spirit is the life force, the soul is the being/person/body and they show that neither are immortal…except when made immortal through the resurrection of believers body and spirit.

And you can show this in a real Bible?

***Can we agree on these principles?

What is, is

What is cannot be something it is not

Something that is, can only gice of what it has

Something cannot give what it does not have

Humanity is the only Created THING on planet earth that is made up of both physical THINGS and SPIRITUAL things

Humanity has a mind, an intellect, a freewill and a soul

They cannot be seen, touched, nor can we smell them, yet it can be proven that they exist in each and every person; not only that but they are TRULY PERSONAL and UNIQUE in each and every person. No two peolple are identical in every way. So we can apply these very gifts to conclude that they are Spiritual; thus humanity is both MATTER [physical] and Non-Matter] Spiritual.

So where do the SPIRITUAL Things orginate? Can’t be from our Physical bodies, because they can’t share what they don’t have. God is real. and only God could CREATE [to make out of nothing] such wonderous beings. Please show be from a real bible where the “soul” equates to a human person in totality.***

Those are in my original post… Adam and Eve were originally created to live forever in paradise on earth (Eden). They were cursed to die and return to the dust. Now the only way we live forever is by faith in the sacrifice of Jesus.

Friend do you believe in the Divinely Inspired Words of God in THEE Bible, which is historically proveable as a Catholic Book? If so, please share with us the biblical foundation for such a position.

That’s the thing, if humans would never torture their children, no matter how bad they are, how would God, the merciful and just one?If we are forgiven as we forgive others, and we are very forgiving, then I’ll have to believe God will be forgiving w/me.

So you don’t believe in the historical accounts of the OT? God is and must be by God’s very Nature all Good which means that God is and MUST BE perfectly JUST and FAIR! One either co operates in God’s specific plan for our salvation, or one chooses to SEND THEMSELVES TO HELL, AND GOD MUST BEING ALL JUST AND FAIR ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN !

The German Jewish death camps never existed, Sadam and his torture chambers ar mere figments of the press?

What world are you living in? My world sadly has witnessed all of this and much more.

Finally your comment about “I like their bible” any and all bibles even their NEW WORLD version are based in part on the Catholic Bible.

What can you possibily challange us with as a Catholic Faith belief or practice that we cannot prove from the Orginal [means historically Catholic] bible.

Love and prayers friend, your holding beliefs that are not biblical and sadly lacking the merit of truth.**

 

[mantim]

Wow

---

So your telling us: That the Deity we know as the Triune Godhead is part of their belief? I don’t think so. Nor do they believe in heaven or hell, rather they hold to some sort of perfect earth after death, filled with all one likes.

Your saying they belief in Jesus as the “first born” [but our Jesus is 1. The Son of God 2. Is too God co equal and co eternal 3. Lived on planet earth as BOTH true God and True Man for a period of 33 years. If as you state their Jesus was the first born, how old is he?
And they hold Jesus was nothing more than a prophet. NOT THE SAME JESUS, sorry 4 you. ****

Indeed Proverbs is talking about “the Son of God” we now know as Jesus, who like I said is too FULLY GOD, co equal in everyway, and co-Eternal as is the Holy Spirit; the 3td. person of the Trinity. It is God’s Will that He make himself known to us in this manner. This too is bivlical proveable.

And you can show this in a real Bible?

***Can we agree on these principles?

What is, is

What is cannot be something it is not

Something that is, can only gice of what it has

Something cannot give what it does not have

Humanity is the only Created THING on planet earth that is made up of both physical THINGS and SPIRITUAL things

Humanity has a mind, an intellect, a freewill and a soul

They cannot be seen, touched, nor can we smell them, yet it can be proven that they exist in each and every person; not only that but they are TRULY PERSONAL and UNIQUE in each and every person. No two peolple are identical in every way. So we can apply these very gifts to conclude that they are Spiritual; thus humanity is both MATTER [physical] and Non-Matter] Spiritual.

So where do the SPIRITUAL Things orginate? Can’t be from our Physical bodies, because they can’t share what they don’t have. God is real. and only God could CREATE [to make out of nothing] such wonderous beings. Please show be from a real bible where the “soul” equates to a human person in totality.***

Friend do you believe in the Divinely Inspired Words of God in THEE Bible, which is historically proveable as a Catholic Book? If so, please share with us the biblical foundation for such a position.

So you don’t believe in the historical accounts of the OT? God is and must be by God’s very Nature all Good which means that God is and MUST BE perfectly JUST and FAIR! One either co operates in God’s specific plan for our salvation, or one chooses to SEND THEMSELVES TO HELL, AND GOD MUST BEING ALL JUST AND FAIR ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN !

The German Jewish death camps never existed, Sadam and his torture chambers ar mere figments of the press?

What world are you living in? My world sadly has witnessed all of this and much more.

Finally your comment about “I like their bible” any and all bibles even their NEW WORLD version are based in part on the Catholic Bible.

What can you possibily challange us with as a Catholic Faith belief or practice that we cannot prove from the Orginal [means historically Catholic] bible.

Love and prayers friend, your holding beliefs that are not biblical and sadly lacking the merit of truth.

Woooooohoooooooo!!! ^^^^well said!!!^^^^^…Peace…

 

[mesl4]

again, mesl, believing Christ is not the Infinite God goes hand in hand with not believing in eternal hell.

If you were raped and discarded, who would you feel?

Is the offense against you merely that you will be sore for a few weeks?

Is it not that you are immeasurably insulted?

You are not understanding the nature of sin.

Mortal sin is the preference of a finite created good to the infinite, uncreated good, which is God.

If your husband told you his golf clubs, which can neither hear nor see nor walk nor love, were more important and meaningful than you, how would you feel?

If you were regarded as only worth your sexual organs for pleasure, how would you feel?

And therefore, in the garden, Adam and Eve symbolically said that a mere finite pleasure (a piece of physical fruit) is a superior good to Infinite, Everlasting Truth and Love. THAT is IMMEASURABLY insulting to the dignity of God.

How do we repay an immeasurable insult? We cannot. For if a woman is called to give and receive intellectual and willed love with God and all the saints, FOREVER AND EVER, then if a man treats the woman like she is only worth her temporal body, he has insulted her to a degree that is immeasurable. Therefore, if she is called to give and receive love forever without end, the unrepetant insulting rapist must suffer TORMENT WITHOUT end, FOREVER.

In a similar vein, if Christ is only A god, and not THE INFINITE God, then neither can his suffering atone for our immeasurable offence.

Infinite, Everlasting God, infinite punishment.

With perfect forgiveness there are no immeasurable offences. Anything someone does to me I can forgive. Even if it continues to hurt me, I can’t imagine it being satisfied by that person’s infinite eternal suffering. Temporal, perhaps…infinte/eternal, can’t fathom.

 

[mesl4]

Thats exactly what it means. The authority to interpret/comment solely remains with magesterium (teaching office) which canonized in the first place. Private interpretation creates more confusion. The Authority was NEVER transfered by the Holy Spirit to the Reform movement. If it was, isn’t it plausible that there would have been just ONE Protestant denomination and not over 33,000?..or better yet, a 3rd newer testament of public Revelation? Jesus and the Catholic Church are one in the same, always has been and always will. Just like gravity…count on it…peace be with you…

You only believe that because that’s what th Magisterium tell you you must believe. Jesus and the apostles said that even those sent out by them would go astray and lead others astray. That doesn’t mean Christ’s church failed/died. Remnants were always preserved in the OT, so I would believe remnants would be preserved in the NT. Why should we believe councils were right just because majority ruled? Since when in the Bible were God’s laws based on majority decision? God’s Church may very well be one church, but scattered among many denominations/churches/groups. etc.

 

[PJM]

---

mesl4]You only believe that because that’s what th Magisterium tell you you must believe

*. Jesus and the apostles said that even those sent out by them would go astray and lead others astray. That doesn’t mean Christ’s church failed/died. Remnants were always preserved in the OT, so I would believe remnants would be preserved in the NT. Why should we believe councils were right just because majority ruled? Since when in the Bible were God’s laws based on majority decision? God’s Church may very well be one church, but scattered among many denominations/churches/groups. etc.

***Actually we hold this belief because it is the single TRUTH that Christ Himself Promised

Mt. 16: 18-19 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock*** I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” ONE Church [now called “Catholic” THEE keys to the Kingdom of heaven.[What is so difficulut to understand? read and heed!] We believe in what the Church teaches because Christ told us to. 2 Cor. 13: 8; 2 Tim. 1: 14 “14 guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.”; and Jn. 16: 12-13 “13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.” This is why we believe what the Church teaches and so should you!

No Jesus did not. Show me where you think He did so!

We don’t nor should you! We beleive in Councils that The POPE must approve to have authority because Chrsit gave His life as evidence of the Churches Single TRUTH on all matters of Faith and or Morals. See verses in red.

Wrong on this one too. Note please the Mt. 16: 18-19 specifies I [singular] my [singular] church singular] rock and Peter [singular] you thee keys to heaven [singular “you” and plural “keys” because there are more than one BUT Peter and CC have them all. Sorry but you cannot in truth skate around these facts! They are God’s WORD!**

 

[mesl4]

Wow

---

So your telling us: That the Deity we know as the Triune Godhead is part of their belief? I don’t think so. Nor do they believe in heaven or hell, rather they hold to some sort of perfect earth after death, filled with all one likes.***
I didn’t say our belief was the same, but that our belief (Trinity) isn’t clear in the Bible. That’s why they had debates over it in all those councils for hundreds of years. I’m not so sure our salvation is dependant on understanding Jesus’ exact relationship in substance to the Father and Spirit if we believe the basics of what the Bible says without trying to read so much into it and define every detail.For example I can know someone’s daughter is from her parent without knowing all th DNA breakdowns and chemical/biology. The point is the relationship of he and the parent. That they belong together. I can love them regardless of being a scientist/dr/chemist etc. So, if someone loves Jesus, believes what the Bible says (that he is God’s son, the Messiah, existed before all creation, made us, is the way to the Father) than that shoud be what is required. i don’t recall the Bible teaching that any further understand was required.

Your saying they belief in Jesus as the “first born” [but our Jesus is 1. The Son of God 2. Is too God co equal and co eternal 3. Lived on planet earth as BOTH true God and True Man for a period of 33 years. If as you state their Jesus was the first born, how old is he?
And they hold Jesus was nothing more than a prophet. NOT THE SAME JESUS, sorry 4 you. *

 

[mesl4]

Friend do you believe in the Divinely Inspired Words of God in THEE Bible, which is historically proveable as a Catholic Book? If so, please share with us the biblical foundation for such a position.

Of course, but since we are not Greek scholars (at least most of us) we cannot rely on every translation, but must look at the greek and then look up the many ways of interpreting the greek since we know that words can have different meanings in different contexts. We have to make it harmonize with the rest of scripture.

COLOR=“Red”]So you don’t believe in the historical accounts of the OT? God is and must be by God’s very Nature all Good which means that God is and MUST BE perfectly JUST and FAIR! One either co operates in God’s specific plan for our salvation, or one chooses to SEND THEMSELVES TO HELL, AND GOD MUST BEING ALL JUST AND FAIR ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN !
The German Jewish death camps never existed, Sadam and his torture chambers ar mere figments of the press?

What world are you living in? My world sadly has witnessed all of this and much more.

I don’t see why you would think I don’t believe in the OT. Of course I do. I never said God wasn’t good. He is!This comment doesn’t seem to apply to me.

Finally your comment about “I like their bible” any and all bibles even their NEW WORLD version are based in part on the Catholic Bible.

Did I say this? I was saying their explanation /interpretation or beliefs are more Bible based than the Catholic. The Catholics come up with a lot of giant beliefs from a hint of somethig in the Bible. They turn it into a huge dogma (ie. Mary stuff), but the JWs just take the word as it is.

 

[mesl4]

mesl4]You only believe that because that’s what th Magisterium tell you you must believe. Jesus and the apostles said that even those sent out by them would go astray and lead others astray. That doesn’t mean Christ’s church failed/died. Remnants were always preserved in the OT, so I would believe remnants would be preserved in the NT. Why should we believe councils were right just because majority ruled? Since when in the Bible were God’s laws based on majority decision? God’s Church may very well be one church, but scattered among many denominations/churches/groups. etc.

---

***Actually we hold this belief because it is the single TRUTH that Christ Himself Promised

 

[Heliotropium]

So now that the mormons have left the neighborhood for the most part, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have come. I usually love inviting these types in to hope to convert them (thought I know it’s a long shot), but I guess these days in my “Lost Sheep” condition, maybe it’s not the best thing to do. I told them I have my hands full with studying Catholicism right now so I don’t have time to entertain another religion and that I’d never become a JW, but of course, that doesn’t stop them. I told them I was interested in reading any responses they had to apostolic succession/keys to the kingdom/Peter the Rock/authority to forgive sins, etc. They have this great book ,’ Reasoning from the Scriptures" that actually has some great info for any Christian to use for their non-believer friends, but I stuck to reading the sections that I knew we differed on. What really stumped me was reading the stuff on hell/hades/sheol/gehenna, eternal torment, etc. There are tons of references in the Bible to our spirits not existing after death, so why did we (Christians) decide to conform to the idea that they will live eternally in a place of torment or paradise? I know we will have eternal life w/Jesus in the resurrection, in our new bodies, but can you help me reconcile these verses that say we don’t have consciousness after death?
Eccl 9:5,10 “The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all…there is no work nor devising nor kowledge nor wisdom in Sheol the place where you are going.”
Eccl 12:7 “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit (ru’ach = life-force) returns to the true God who gave it”
Eccl 3:19 (man and beast have the same kind of spirit)
Ps 146:4 :His spirit goes out he goes back to his ground in that day his thoughts do perish."
Ezek 18:4 “the soul (being) that is sinning - itself will die”
the incident in 1 Samuel 28:3-20 is used to show that the spirit Saul saw was not really Samuel. Also, whoever it was,he was awakened so that means the spirit isn’t always awake/conscious when it dies."

In reference to hell meaning simply death/grave:
even good people go there : Job 14:13, Acts 2:25-27 referring to Ps 16:8-11 Jesus dying: "you will not leave my soul in hell/the grave, nor suffer you Holy One to see corruption.
People get out of hell: Rev 20:13,14 - death and dead (hell and hades) destroyed in lake of fire.

The verses that made me think there was an eternal punishment were:
Matt 25:46 "THese shall go away into everlasting punishment (kolasis in greek which means correction/punishment/penalty/cutting off/lopping off)
and 2 Thess 1:9 "They shall suffer the punishment of t eternal destruction (olethros = ruin/destroy/death).
But as you can see these verses can also just mean eternal death a a punishment since we know “the punishment for sin is death” and that would make it consistent with the other Bible verses.

Anyway, any other verse you come up with that can support and eternal torment for the unbelievers, please explain it in a way that will make sense /not contradict the previous ones I’ve listed since we know the Bible can’t contradict itself. Let’s just look at it for what it says without bringing in our previous prejudices/ideas that might not be scriptural. We might need to reconsider our beliefs…

Here is some scripture verses for Hell

Matt. 3:12; Luke 3:17 - John the Baptist said the Lord will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. This unquenchable fire is the state of eternal separation from God, which the Church has called “hell” for 2,000 years. Some Protestant communities no longer acknowledge the reality of hell.

Matt. 25:41 - Jesus says, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Matt. 25:46 - Jesus says, “they will go away into eternal punishment” which is in reference to this eternal fire.

Mark 9:47-48 - Jesus refers to hell as where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. It lasts forever.

2 Thess. 1:6-9 - the angels will come with flaming fire and the disobedient will suffer punishment of eternal destruction. It is important to note that “destruction” does not mean “annihilation,” as some Protestant denominations teach. It means eternal exclusion from the presence of God.

Jude 6-7 - the rebelling angels, and Sodom and Gomorrah, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Rev. 14:11 - the worshipers of the beast suffer and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Rev. 20:10 - they’re tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone day and night forever and ever.

Isaiah 33:14 - “Who of us can dwell in the everlasting fire?” This is a reference to hell which is forever.

Isaiah 66:24 - their worm shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched. We cannot fathom the pain of this eternal separation from God.

Jer. 15:14 - in my anger a fire is kindled which shall burn forever. Hell is the proper compliment to the eternal bliss of heaven.

Judith 16:17 - in the day of judgment the Lord will take vengeance on the wicked and they shall weep in pain forever. Hell is a place that sinners have prepared for themselves by rejecting God, who desires all people to be saved in His Son Jesus Christ. God sends no one to hell.

 

[Heliotropium]

Also your title is not what we believe. Catholics believe in Hell as a place for willful unbelievers and people who oppose God’s will. These are the people who know what they must do but do not do it. God does not send ignorant people to hell unless it’s willful ignorance. Example would be there is a person who truly searched for God but in the end dies still in a state of unbelief. This person has lead a good life, and has searched honestly for God so they are saved because they have done what they could and are part of the Church by desire. Now the opposite would be the person who dies in a state of unbelief and has died in this state because they were lazy and didn’t want to search for God, because they want to earn world respect, not get made fun of, or just because they didn’t want to make personal sacrifices knowing it’s what they should do. That is will full ignorance and if they die without asking for forgiveness and true contrition for their sins they will go to Hell.

See God made Hell for the Devil and his angels because they while knowing God, and being in the very image of God opposed Him. Hell is just for them, and when we do this hell is just for us as well.

 

[mesl4]

Also your title is not what we believe. Catholics believe in Hell as a place for willful unbelievers and people who oppose God’s will. These are the people who know what they must do but do not do it. God does not send ignorant people to hell unless it’s willful ignorance. Example would be there is a person who truly searched for God but in the end dies still in a state of unbelief. This person has lead a good life, and has searched honestly for God so they are saved because they have done what they could and are part of the Church by desire. Now the opposite would be the person who dies in a state of unbelief and has died in this state because they were lazy and didn’t want to search for God, because they want to earn world respect, not get made fun of, or just because they didn’t want to make personal sacrifices knowing it’s what they should do. That is will full ignorance and if they die without asking for forgiveness and true contrition for their sins they will go to Hell.

See God made Hell for the Devil and his angels because they while knowing God, and being in the very image of God opposed Him. Hell is just for them, and when we do this hell is just for us as well.

Do you have any Catholic teaching references that this is the Catholic belief?

 

[PJM]

=mesl4;5381066]

I didn’t say our belief was the same, but that our belief (Trinity) isn’t clear in the Bible. That’s why they had debates over it in all those councils for hundreds of years.

Sure it is: Mt. 3: 13 "Then Jesus [The Son] came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” 16 And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove [the Holy Spirit], and alighting on him; 17and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, *with whom I am well pleased.” God the Father

***Bible references for “Son” Jn. 5:5 - Gal. 4:4 - Heb. 1:5 - Mt. 17:5

Bible references for “HS” Acts 1:1 - Rom. 15:13 - Lk. 1:16 - Mt. 1: 20

Bible references for “Father” Mt. 6:1 - Jn. 8:18 - Lk. 10:22 - 1 Pet. 1: 2 are but a few examples!

There never was a Council argument, there was a defination given in the “Nicene Creed,” {Council of Nicea 325 AD] taken from the Apostles Creed which states the same truth and dates directly back to the Apostles***.

If we say that Jesus is co-equal and co-eternal to God, that how do you explain all the Bible references of him being lower than the Father,

. JWs do believe #1 and #3 above. Althought they believe before and after living on earth he was the archangel Michael because of references to him in OT being “the angel of the Lord”

***An excellent question

Jn. 14: 9 He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.*** 12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son**

The Dogma of the Blessed Trinity which has proclaimed from the time of the Apostles themselves state: One God, One Divine Nature, three persons; Father [Creator] Son [Redeemer} and Holy Spirit [Sanctifer] all Co-Equal in every way and all Co-Eternal!

No one in the 2000 year history has been able to explain fully this TRUTH, neither has any informed practicing Catholic denied it. For God’s own reason he chooses to make Himself present to us in this specific manner.

Isaiah 55: 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." ]

Gen 2:7:

"Man became a living soul /being/person(depending on translation) " (Hebrew= ne’phesh)

*** Here is the actual verse from three sources The RSV 7 “then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”/***I]

Youngs Literal Translation:" 7And Jehovah God formeth the man – dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature."

The Oldest Catholic Bible; the Douay-Rheims: “Book Of Genesis: 7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.”

Haydocks Catholic Commentary:"Ver. 7 “Breath of life or a soul, created out of nothing, and infused into the body to give it life. (Haydock)”

The term “soul” first of all is a SPIRITUAL attribute, not physical, as I shall demonistrate for you. It is tied to “life” because the soul is what animates life and sustains life.

Indeed every living thing from a blade of grass, to a dog, to a human being have “a soul.” That said, just as humanity is more complex than a dog, for example, and a dog more complex than a blade of grass; there is a hirearchy of supremacy, with humanity, being “Created in the image and likeness of God” at the top; on planet earth. [Gen.1:26-30]

He was not given

a soul, he became a soul.
K J, American Standard, Catholic -Douay Version read “soul”,
R S V, New American Bible read “being”,
New English reads “creature”,
Holy Bible reads “person.”

I hasten to point out what a marvolous job you have done on your research:thumbsup: However as three of your four refereces clearly point out: “being, creature and person” all are specifically very physical MATTER.

As to further disprove your theory consider the following.

Something can only be what it is

Something cannot be what it is not

Something can only share what it has

Something cannot share what it DOES NOT HAVE; agreed?

All of humanity have a mind, intellect, freewill and a soul. Take your choice and quantify one of these for us, as they cannot be seen, touched, nor can we smell them; a logical conclusion is that these attributes are SPIRITUAL, not MATTER like the rest of our bodies.

Because ONLY God ALONE who as “all-powerful” can Create both Matter and Spiritual Things, we can conclude with logic, that these Spiritual Gifts Originate with God. Indeed it is our Spiritual THINGS that make us “in the image and likeness of God,” we imperfectly and God Perfectly.

There are more but I think this makes it pretty obvious. I’ll continue in next post…too long

I’m looking forward to your reply! God Bless you.

 

[jlhargus]

Actually they do believe in God and that Jesus is his son just as the Bible teaches. They don’t believe his son is the same as him (and neither do Trinitarians)but that he is the image of him, the first of his creations (Read Proverbs 8:22-31 shows he was created unless yo usay that’s not talking about Jesus, but who else could it be?).

 

[Heliotropium]

Do you have any Catholic teaching references that this is the Catholic belief?

Here is the Churches Position regarding salvation of non-catholics, and all who have not recieved the Gospel

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[danonwaveland]

I really cannot believe that God would be so cruel as to send people to Hell just because they have no one to pray for them! That is pure and simple meanness! So therefore I pray daily for those who are not being prayed for, but I still think it’s mean. I think, for instance, of poor people who are being abused, especially children. Well I could go on and on but it is just plain mean and if that is indeed the case I’ll take on the responsibility of praying for these unknown and obscure people in the face of a cruel God. So sue me! Some of these poor people are living a hell on earth, and He’s sending them to an eternal Hell because no one prays? This is infuriating. Mean,mean, mean.

It is good to pray for the poor souls and for those who are approaching death. Thank you for doing so. However, God does not send anyone to hell. Those in hell have freely chosen to be there; God is not cruel. See Heliotropium’s postings from earlier today.

I recall a story of a Catholic mystic – I wish I could remember her name – who spoke with the Lord in a vision. She was concerned about those consigned to hell and asked the Lord to allow her to bring one soul to His Presence – surely, he would repent, she thought. When she brought the soul from hell into the Lord’ Presence, the soul begged her to take him back to hell. As terrible as hell was, it was worse for him to be in the Presence of the Perfect and Almighty God. Granted, that is the story of a vision and we are not obligated to believe it, but it gets the message across that we make our choices in this life and our Lord honors them.

God bless,
Dan

 

[PJM]

mesl4

But this doesn’t mean that everyone in the line of Peter would be Holy spirit inspired and teach infallibly. It doesn’t mean that some that went on from Peter wouldn’t go astray.

---

Actually is does****

You will please notice none of the bible verses I shared specified Peter alone, or ONLY, no they all spoke in relation to the Entire Church “I Jesus” My Church"]. However having shared this, the inability of God’s protected CHURCH [POPE] to error in Teaching applies to the Catholic Church and all of it’s it’s POPES [all of them, forever] BUT *ONLY ON MATTERS REGARDING FAITH & or MORALS, nothing else!

This makes sense logically, if you were God starting a new Religion, that you gave your life’s blood for, you’d do what ever was necessary, prudent and possible to insure it’s success. That is precisely what Jesus did by commiting the Holy Spirit to be with His Church always! 2 Cor. 13:8; 2 Tim. 1:14; Jn.14:25; Jn. 14: 16-17; & jn. 16:12-15 as examples of this truth.]

In Matt 24 Jesus talks about people that would fall away and he never said bishops in the line of Rome would be immune.

---

[Bishops no, you are correct, unless they teach in "full Communion with the POPE***, on matter of Faith & Morals.]

[The rest of these quotes frankly do NOT apply to the Catholic Church per sae, rather to the now 30,000 non-Catholic Christian denominations, and even more to the new sects: New Age, JW’s and Mormons, none of whom even believe in God [capitol “G” or Jesus as Lord and God. That is presisely what in part is the task and the reason for the HS of God in our midst.[COLOR=“Red”] 1 John 2:22 “there have come many antichrists…they went out from us, but they were not of our sort.” Speaking here of the early heritics.

]Matt 24:24 “False Christ and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.” (yes, this “if possible” but I think that refers to the apostles as the chosen ones. ?? It still doesn’t say only those in Rome)

"False Christ" are those who “make themselves into gods” like New Age, Mormons and JW’s. False prophets are those who no matter how well entended, have added to the poliferation of self -interpeting bible churches, that number in less than 400 years, in excess of 30, 000 varities. Yet there remains only ONE Catholic Church with One Faith, One Baptism, One Trinune Godhead; One set of Beliefs and One 1,600 year old Bible! Because Chrsit did what he committed to and promised and sent the HS to Protect His Church. God cannot lie!

Acts 20:30 “From among you yourselves **[Luther. Calvin Ect] **men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.”

2 Pet 2:1,2 “There will also be false teachers among you. Thses very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects [some 30,000 in about 400 years Pjm] and will disown even the owner that bought them…”

See above!

Again, This doesn’t say anything about Peter being infallible/the ulitmate authority, and especially doesn’t say this gift would pass on to his successors. On a side note, he has successors in Antioch too so even if it did, the patriarch there would be just as authoritative.

No, sorry

B]*Mt. 16: 18 And I tell you, [Jesus speaking to ONLY Peter]*you are Peter, and on this rock SINGULAR] I [SINGULAR] will build my [SINGULAR]church[SINGULAR and “church” specifically includes all who like Peter are chosen by God to run it] , and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I [SINGULAR] will give you [PETER and My POPES] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [SINGULAR as POPE {s} ] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you [SINGULAR and My POPES] loose on earth shall be loosed in
heaven."End. You may opt to deny this truth, but you can’t deny that this is what God Himself intended. and accomplished. 265 Consecutive unbroken line of POPES over 2,000 years and still the largest Chrsitian Church in the World. NO ACCIDENT THIS.

These veres should be understood in the light of what we would call today, “A MISSION STATEMENT” who we are, what we will do, what we are!

Thanks for trying so hard:thumbsup:

Love and prayers, Pat

 

[mesl4]

I’m not even sure how to respond to everyone because it seems you all are throwing out subjective statements (the “it’s true because I said so” explanations) and Bible verses that really don’t address what my OP asks about hell meaning simply grave, and eternal punishment also translating eternal cutting off. Simply acknowledge if that is true, or show grammatics that say it’s false.

Now regarding PJM’s respose below, I will try to answer some of the points:

Sure it is:

the bold shows they are not co equal or Jesus would had the same authority.

The Dogma of the Blessed Trinity which has proclaimed from the time of the Apostles themselves state: One God, One Divine Nature, three persons; Father [Creator] Son [Redeemer} and Holy Spirit [Sanctifer] all Co-Equal in every way and all Co-Eternal!

No one in the 2000 year history has been able to explain fully this TRUTH, neither has any informed practicing Catholic denied it. For God’s own reason he chooses to make Himself present to us in this specific manner.

Isaiah 55: 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." ]
none of these say co-eternal/co-equal. If in Prov 8 Jesus says he was the first creation, than obviously he was created…unless you don’t believe Proverbs is inspired. I’ve run out of room…

 

[mesl4]

*** Here is the actual verse from three sources The RSV 7 “then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”/***I]

Youngs Literal Translation:" 7And Jehovah God formeth the man – dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature."

The Oldest Catholic Bible; the Douay-Rheims: “Book Of Genesis: 7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.”

Haydocks Catholic Commentary:"Ver. 7 “Breath of life or a soul, created out of nothing, and infused into the body to give it life. (Haydock)”
Comentaries aren’t inspired. The hebrew for “breath” in that sentence is:
nĕshamah
meaning:
breath, spirit
of life is: **chayay **= to live, have life, remain alive, sustain life, live prosperously, live for ever, be quickened, be alive, be restored to life or health
a soul: nephesh =
soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
b) living being
c) living being (with life in the blood)
d) the man himself, self, person or individual
e) seat of the appetites
f) seat of emotions and passions
g) activity of mind

The term “soul” first of all is a SPIRITUAL attribute, not physical, as I shall demonistrate for you. It is tied to “life” because the soul is what animates life and sustains life.

Indeed every living thing from a blade of grass, to a dog, to a human being have “a soul.” That said, just as humanity is more complex than a dog, for example, and a dog more complex than a blade of grass; there is a hirearchy of supremacy, with humanity, being “Created in the image and likeness of God” at the top; on planet earth. [Gen.1:26-30]
The point is about the immortality of the soul/spirit. If the soul/living being dies, it dies/ends, the spirit they say would be more of the animated part but that also dies w/the body. Only angels were created to be and immortal spirit being (Adam and Eve were to live forever as humans) so the only way to obtain immortality now is because of Christ when we are resurrected and our spirit/life-force is joined to our body/soul.

I hasten to point out what a marvolous job you have done on your research:thumbsup: However as three of your four refereces clearly point out: “being, creature and person” all are specifically very physical MATTER.

yes, which contradicts what you said above about soul being spiritual.

As to further disprove your theory consider the following.
Something can only be what it is
Something cannot be what it is not
Something can only share what it has
Something cannot share what it DOES NOT HAVE; agreed?

Yes, I don’t really get the point here.

All of humanity have a mind, intellect, freewill and a soul. Take your choice and quantify one of these for us, as they cannot be seen, touched, nor can we smell them; a logical conclusion is that these attributes are SPIRITUAL, not MATTER like the rest of our bodies.

Because ONLY God ALONE who as “all-powerful” can Create both Matter and Spiritual Things, we can conclude with logic, that these Spiritual Gifts Originate with God. Indeed it is our Spiritual THINGS that make us “in the image and likeness of God,” we imperfectly and God Perfectly.

I was never arguing for evolution, I know God originated all life. We are like God in that we have free will, we can reason, and have emotions, etc. Again, he did not create us to have an immortal spirit, but did create Adam and Eve to be immortal. They (and all humans) lost this when they sinned, so their punishment was death.

 

[PJM]

Mesl4 I’m not even sure how to respond to everyone because it seems you all are throwing out subjective statements (the “it’s true because I said so” explanations) and Bible verses that really don’t address what my OP asks about hell meaning simply grave, and eternal punishment also translating eternal cutting off. Simply acknowledge if that is true, or show grammatics that say it’s false.

Friend, just so you are aware it is not the responsibility or duty of IPRC’s to “save you”. That friend is between you and God. Our task is to know and share the truth, which is all that I have done for you.

The risk of self-interruption of the bible is wholly evident in the fact that in the period of about 400 years, non catholic Christian denominations have evolved from a very few; Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist and Methodist, to over 30, 000 separate self professed, self taught, self interpreting ‘bible churches.” There can be, always was, and always will be only ONE truth on every single issue! How can their 30, 000 versions of it? Can’t be, and trying to apply you limited understanding to the issues at hand, just makes the matters worse!

Next point. Read 2 Tim. 3:16; Jn. 21:25; 2 Cor. 9:13 and 2 Thess. 2:13-15 and 1 Cor. 11:2.

Now as to your OP question: Read also Jude 5-7; 2 Thess. 1: 8-9; and Heb.6:13

Mt. 25: 31"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; or I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

None of these show that the 3 are co-equal and co-eternal anymore than verses where Jesus prays that we will be one as he and the Father are one, or that when the Holy Spirit descended a Pentecost that those were all a trinity simply because the HS was there. There are no statements in the Bible that say “The Father Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equal, and co-eternal” but there are plenty that say Jesus is in submission to the Father, or the Father is greater than he, etc. I’m trying to look at the Bible and learn from it alone because if you believe the non-written tradition/ Magisterium’s teachings are more authoritative than the Bible/apostles, we run into a lot of problems.

You may have heard that a “fool and his money are soon parted,” “a person who is his own Lawyer has a fool for a client,” well, add this to the list: Anyone either using the bible alone, or is given to self-interpretation of the bible is in violation of what The Bible and therefore God Himself Teaches. That friend is a Grave Problem!

Reread “next point above.” Nowhere in the bible dies it say everything one needs to know is in the bible. It does specifically say that it is NOT! It does say in Mt. 16: 18-19, and again in Mt. 18:18, that only the Pope, and the Church he founded can and successfully have for 2, 000 consecutive years HAVE fulfilled this God given Mandate!

There is ONLY ONE GOD agreed? Yes, then they have to be co-equal and co-eternal. There is only ONE!

none of these say co-eternal/co-equal. If in Prov 8 Jesus says he was the first creation, than obviously he was created…unless you don’t believe Proverbs is inspired. I’ve run out of room.

Not only that you have run out of logic!

Matthew Henry’s Protestant Commentary: “22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.”

**Haydock’s catholic Commentary: **“Ver. 22. Possessed. As Christ was with God, equal to him in eternity, John i. Septuagint, “created,” which many of the Fathers explain of the word incarnate, (see Cornelius a Lapide; Bossuet) or he hath “placed me,” (St. Athanasius iii. contra Arian. Eusebius) a pattern of all virtues. The Septuagint generally render kana, “possessed,” as Aquila does here. (Calmet)”