Why do we need the Church? Not A Church, but THE Church.

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Yeah - and so does every other Protestant denomination out of the tens of thousands out there. What makes you so different?
~Liza
Actually nothing, as you are quite correct that we all - Catholics and other western Christians share the same pre-reformation, and with the Orthodox, pre-schism history. I just didn’t feel qualified to speak for others who may feel their’s is a different history. I try to let others speak for themselves.
Just because you are closer to the Truth than some of the others? I’m sorry Jon, but being close to the goal line does not make it a touch down, no matter how close you may be. In the end you still loose the game by that final point.
I think, Liza, this, and not any dogma or doctrine, may be the true difference between us: you seem to think of all of this as a game to be won or lost. It seems to be the position of many triumphalists, regardless of their faith tradition.
So, ok Liza, I admit it, you are better than me simply because you are Catholic. You win, by one point.
Congratulations. Oh, and by the way, you might want to say a short prayer of thanks to God that you are better than me.

Jon
 
I think, Liza, this, and not any dogma or doctrine, may be the true difference between us: you seem to think of all of this as a game to be won or lost. It seems to be the position of many triumphalists, regardless of their faith tradition.
So, ok Liza, I admit it, you are better than me simply because you are Catholic. You win, by one point.
Congratulations. Oh, and by the way, you might want to say a short prayer of thanks to God that you are better than me.

Jon
You darn well better believe there is something to be won or lost - eternal salvation. Calling it a game does not lessen its importance or gravity - it was simply an analogy, and you know it. Being sassy is not going to get you close to that goal line Jon.

Am I a better person than you? I don’t know, that’s not for me to say. Am I a better Christian - I would say yes. Because I am trying to live the life that Christ told me I must live, and that includes living according to His ONE TRUE FAITH in His Catholic Church. I live that Faith every day. I believe it, 100%. I don’t question one single thing His Church teaches. So if you want to be all sassy and nasty about it, yes, I feel that being a (faithful) Catholic makes us better Christians.

GASP!!! HORROR!! SHOCK!! :eek: Did she actually say that??!!

Yep. Darn straight I did.

~Liza
 
You darn well better believe there is something to be won or lost - eternal salvation. Calling it a game does not lessen its importance or gravity - it was simply an analogy, and you know it. Being sassy is not going to get you close to that goal line Jon.

Am I a better person than you? I don’t know, that’s not for me to say. Am I a better Christian - I would say yes. Because I am trying to live the life that Christ told me I must live, and that includes living according to His ONE TRUE FAITH in His Catholic Church. I live that Faith every day. I believe it, 100%. I don’t question one single thing His Church teaches. So if you want to be all sassy and nasty about it, yes, I feel that being a (faithful) Catholic makes us better Christians.

GASP!!! HORROR!! SHOCK!! :eek: Did she actually say that??!!

Yep. Darn straight I did.

~Liza
Sorry if you thought I was sassy. It wasn’t my intent.

Blessings,
Jon
 
Catholics must and can only teach in communion with Chruch teachings. That is what God Has [not had…has] in mind. PJM
Prove it. Give me chapter and verse. Convince me of this and you’ll win me over.
OK friend, here it is👍

*** I must answer for you the W’s, who, what, where and why?

Who?* Jesus the Christ (Mt. 16:16) The Son of God. All Knowing - all Wise - all everything Good. A key element of Gods Perfect Goodness is that God is and has to be “All-Fair and All Just.”

The words used by Jesus are carefully selected to insure proper understanding.

What? Pulling out ONLY the words “Key’s (more than one) to the Kingdom of Heaven.” (Lk.26:1-3) , is like offering one a sandwich without bread.

This is part of the discourse in which Christ makes clear in unambiguous language that He intends to: 1. Form His Church (singular use of “I” and “you” and “church.” [Mt.16: 13-8] 2. That it is to be only ONE church. 3. That Peter is given the access (gate keys) to heaven.Mt.16:19] 4. Peter (and Peter alone) is given all of the power and authority to govern with COMPLETE autonomous authority, answering ONLY to God [the King] Himself! Mt. 16:18-19]

To “bind” and to “loose” were common, rabbinical, legally binding at Law terms for exactly that! Complete, and free governance. Jesus, Peter and all that heard knew exactly what Jesus meant! Exactly what Jesus meant!

WHERE? Mt. 16:13: “Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” “

Caesarea Philippi is in the hill country of Judea. It was a by their standards, a large town. It was also the site of the areas Major Pagan Temple. Thus Jesus ask, “ who do people say that I am.” Not satisfied with the response Jesus then “ask His deciples (plural.) PETER answers, (Mt. 16: 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

The location Jesus chooses is a clear indication of the Mission of His Church, and Peter and the Apostles. “Overcome, do away with pagan worship.” Jesus not only gives His Church this Mission, He gives His Church all of the tools and authority needed to accomplish it!

Why? Why indeed! Jesus knew from the moment of his Conception in the Virgin womb of His Mother, what Gods plan (His Plan) was. He knew that he would suffer and die that He would rise from the Dead, and be our Redeemer. He further knew that (Mt. 22:14 “14 For many are called, but few are chosen." The word “chosen, in this context means “chosen BY US!” In other words, many will deny, and many will die because of unbelief, because of the personal choice we make.

Jesus clearly knew what lie in store for His Deciples and the persecution His Church, and His Deciples, would have to face. This is precisely why the mandate, why the authority, why the church, why they too would die professing that Christ is Lord! That Jesus remains present “ Really Present,” why Jesus instituted the Seven Sacraments. All this so that His Church would have the power and the authority, the tools and the grace, to become the “Narrow Gate” of Christ plan for our Salvation. (Mt. 7: 13.)

The “Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven” is a literal statement of FACT!

This is what Jesus said, did, intended and has accomplished.

I made the point of why Jesus selected Caesarea Philippi, and it was primarily because it was the “center of pagan worship for the area.” Indeed it was the location of a very large Pagan Temple.

But why did Jesus use the term “the keys?” Was there a specific reason? Would those to whom Jesus was speaking have easily picked up on what Jesus was saying and doing?

Jesus often used Parables that told stories in order to make the point He was trying to make. So we can understand that whatever words Jesus selected were carefully chosen.

What first impressed me about today’s Jerusalem is that it remains a Walled in city."

Back in the time if Jesus all major cites were walled in for protection from attack. These cities actually had two real GATES, with REAL KEYS. A minor gate and the Main gate.

Now under independent rule, each major city also had there own king, and thus a “kingdom.” So there were many Kings and many kingdoms. A brief reading of the Old Testament list many Kings (who often merged with other kingdoms for the purpose of self-defense) because they were usually too small to be completely independent against other NATIONS, who too merged all of their kingdoms resources to do battle and gain territory.

So the Apostles and the Jewish people of that time period would have been firmilar and comfortable with the idea of a King and his Kingdom.

Lets look briefly at the President of the United States. Does he personally unlock the Whitehouse in the morning and lock-up at night? Of course not, he has someone do it.

Such was true of Kings and Kingdoms. All day to day governance was given to a person that they selected as “Prime Minister.” An example of this is Genesis 42 and Joseph, the brother sold into slavery, who is made Prime Minister of all of Egypt.

Typically a Prime Minister had complete, autonomous control of ALL day to day activities. The Prime Minister answered to NOONE except the King Himself and.

This is the common understanding and the very reason for the specific reference to “Keys” and the “Kingdom.” There would have been absolutely zero doubts about what Christ was saying, doing and mandating for Peter, now the “Prime Minister” for Christ!

This account is historically provable. Indeed Christ intended to start His (ONE) Church, and to give Peter and those “prime-ministers” (POPES) complete and autonomous control and governance of His Church.
__________________**

This binds all humanity, by through the special graces available to us, especially Catholics:D

If this is not clear enough let me know. I’ll rey again.
 
This is awesome - I just love this priest, he really knows how to say it.

Shadow Priest

So - to those who are not Catholic, what do you think about this? Why do you think you can live just fine without the Catholic Church?

~Liza

That’s a different question :cool:

If the question is “Why is a Church needed ?”, part of the answer might be, because man is a social being.

That may not be a question you’re asking…
 
OTCA,
My religion is the same as yours - Christian.
With due respect, I have seen your level of knowledge regarding Lutheran beliefs here (a thread about the 10 commandments comes to mind). I just don’t think you have the background knowledge to tell me what Lutherans believe, or what our roots are.

The totality of my post says;
Actually, Lutherans trace their history back to Pentecost as well, as part of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church. The fact that Catholics and Lutherans are currently (temporarily) not in full communion with each other does not exclude or deny our joint history, anymore than the schism of 1054 excludes or denies the joint history of west and east prior to that year.
So, that is exactly what I meant, the pre-reformation, pre-schism Church, through which Lutherans trace their roots and history.

Jon
Jon,

I know the Lutheran church well for I have practiced it and my family is from Sweden (Most Lutheran Country) No once you broke off the motherhead (catholic church) becoming Lutheran that history was lost. Lutherans no longer followed ALL essential rules of Catholism. Lutherans began with Luther, that is a fact! Does your church hold truths handed down from the Catholic church? Yes! however if I left the church and started my own religion like Luther did, I could not say that you could date my roots to the apsotles!
 
I admire and respect many Lutherans on here, but at the same time, you can’t really claim Lutheranism has any basis in history before the 1600’s. Sure, there are some doctrines and things which were continued after they left the Catholic Church, but these were borrowed doctrines that the Church had held since apostolic times-- so the only way Lutherans have any connexion to the Apostles or Christ, at least historically speaking, is indirectly and vicariously through the original Church.
 
Jon,

I know the Lutheran church well for I have practiced it and my family is from Sweden (Most Lutheran Country) No once you broke off the motherhead (catholic church) becoming Lutheran that history was lost. Lutherans no longer followed ALL essential rules of Catholism. Lutherans began with Luther, that is a fact! Does your church hold truths handed down from the Catholic church? Yes! however if I left the church and started my own religion like Luther did, I could not say that you could date my roots to the apsotles!

Protestantism has many roots in the life of the Apostolic Church - before all these ridiculous splits happened. As do all other Churches. The Apostles were not Catholics - they were Catholics-Anglicans-Baptists-Lutherans-Presbyterians-Orthodox-Coptic-etc-etc., because these all came later. Which is why the history before the splits is common to the parties on all sides of it, & not to one party alone.​

Whether Lutherans “followed all essential rules of Catholicism” is irrelevant to whether or not they originated in Catholicism. They did - so the past before the split is shared by both, genetically at least.
 
I admire and respect many Lutherans on here, but at the same time, you can’t really claim Lutheranism has any basis in history before the 1600’s. Sure, there are some doctrines and things which were continued after they left the Catholic Church, but these were borrowed doctrines that the Church had held since apostolic times-- so the only way Lutherans have any connexion to the Apostles or Christ, at least historically speaking, is indirectly and vicariously through the original Church.

So it’s “the Church’s right to choose” what comes out of her ? That is an argument for abortion… :eek: The Church can’'t abort its past, even if it does not like the children it bears. In some sense Lutheranism came from the CC, & shares in the past of the CC.​

 

Protestantism has many roots in the life of the Apostolic Church - before all these ridiculous splits happened. As do all other Churches. The Apostles were not Catholics - they were Catholics-Anglicans-Baptists-Lutherans-Presbyterians-Orthodox-Coptic-etc-etc., because these all came later. Which is why the history before the splits is common to the parties on all sides of it, & not to one party alone.​

Whether Lutherans “followed all essential rules of Catholicism” is irrelevant to whether or not they originated in Catholicism. They did - so the past before the split is shared by both, genetically at least.
not so, The term “Catholic” is found in the 1st century writings of Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius was a “hearer” of St. John the Apostle, so it is easy to believe that the term “Catholic” was used among the Apostles themselves.

regardless of the name, the early writings of the church fathers expresses a faith that is explicitly Catholic, and mirrors modern catholic belief.
 
I suppose the church can be viewed as a corporate association of people who share similar beliefs and practices. To an outsider, I would regard the question ‘How can you live without or outside the church’ in the same manner as ‘How can you live outside of Islam’ or ‘How can you live outside of the Republican Party’ or ‘How can you live without the Smithville Tennis Club.’ The question really has no meaning or relevance unless in some way you share the views of the group or are a part of it or connected to it in some meaningful and relevant way. For many people who have no connection or never had any connection to the church at all, and don’t accept its beliefs, the question is really a pointless one.
 
***Getting back to the OOPQ

*2 Peter 3: 14 –17 14 **Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

**Mt. Henry on 2 Peter 3:16 ** “And here the unlearned and unstable make wretched work; for they wrest and torture the scriptures, to make them speak what the Holy Ghost did not intend. Those who are not well instructed and well established in the truth are in great danger of perverting the word of God.

Those who have heard and learned of the Father are best secured from misunderstanding and misapplying any part of the word of God; and, where there is a divine power to establish as well as to instruct men in divine truth, persons are effectually secured from falling into errors. [Even though he is unwilling to admit Henry is speaking of the Catholic Church here. Mt.16:15-19, Mt.18:18 and especially Mt. 16:19. PJM]

How great a blessing this is we learn by observing what is the pernicious consequence of the errors that ignorant and unstable men fall into–even their own destruction. Errors in particular concerning the holiness and justice of God are the utter ruin of multitudes of men. Let us therefore earnestly pray for the Spirit of God to instruct us in the truth, that we may know it as it is in Jesus, and have our hearts established with grace, that we may stand firm and unshaken, even in the most stormy times, when others are tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine.” {This explains the existence of in excess of 30,000 different sets of believe and practice in the Protestant Community:blush:🤷]

***4 There is one ***body [Meaning only One Church see Mt. 16] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, [What we know tody as Catholism]one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

Love and prayers friends**
 
not so, The term “Catholic” is found in the 1st century writings of Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius was a “hearer” of St. John the Apostle, so it is easy to believe that the term “Catholic” was used among the Apostles themselves.

regardless of the name, the early writings of the church fathers expresses a faith that is explicitly Catholic, and mirrors modern catholic belief.
Not only that but the Creed explains it all…very early written, Catholic in belief.
 
I suppose the church can be viewed as a corporate association of people who share similar beliefs and practices. To an outsider, I would regard the question ‘How can you live without or outside the church’ in the same manner as ‘How can you live outside of Islam’ or ‘How can you live outside of the Republican Party’ or ‘How can you live without the Smithville Tennis Club.’ The question really has no meaning or relevance unless in some way you share the views of the group or are a part of it or connected to it in some meaningful and relevant way. For many people who have no connection or never had any connection to the church at all, and don’t accept its beliefs, the question is really a pointless one.
the Church still here and still evangelizing. those who refuse to believe her is just like those who reject Christ’s teachings at His time.

there is no excuse for anyone not believe in the Church Jesus found, no excuse whatsoever. there was no excuse then, there is no excuse today. the Jews all knew about God, but they did not listen the teachings of One who was sent by God, just like today, people are not listen to the One Church sent by Jesus.

the Bible is not a self help book. we dont read and claim neither assume any character of the Bible. it is identity theft. no one can send themselves to preach. the Church is the only One that can sent out to preach the Gospel because she was sent by God therefore she can send others.

:highprayer::byzsoc:
 

Protestantism has many roots in the life of the Apostolic Church - before all these ridiculous splits happened. As do all other Churches. The Apostles were not Catholics - they were Catholics-Anglicans-Baptists-Lutherans-Presbyterians-Orthodox-Coptic-etc-etc., because these all came later. Which is why the history before the splits is common to the parties on all sides of it, & not to one party alone.​

Whether Lutherans “followed all essential rules of Catholicism” is irrelevant to whether or not they originated in Catholicism. They did - so the past before the split is shared by both, genetically at least.
Sorry, but the Catholic church existed from the beginning wether you like it or not! I use to believe such a thing until I recieved a real college education on the matter. anything else is counterfit. Christ said a house devided cannot stand and that is why the holy apostolic church is stil standing after 2000 years and the 500 hundred year old protestants are fighting each other over interpretations, new religions and so on. I am giving you the charity of truth and yet you choose to stay blind! I will pray for you and the others who are blind, def, and dumb
 
=Matariel;5540995]I admire and respect many Lutherans on here,
Thank you. I admire and respect you and many other Catholics here.
but at the same time, you can’t really claim Lutheranism has any basis in history before the 1600’s. Sure, there are some doctrines and things which were continued after they left the Catholic Church, but these were borrowed doctrines that the Church had held since apostolic times-- so the only way Lutherans have any connexion to the Apostles or Christ, at least historically speaking, is indirectly and vicariously through the original Church.
I didn’t say we had an independent history prior to 1521. That would be ridiculous, like the Trail of Blood. Of course our history prior to the Reformation is through the western Church, and before 1054, Orthodoxy as well.

Jon
 
Thank you. I admire and respect you and many other Catholics here.

I didn’t say we had an independent history prior to 1521. That would be ridiculous, like the Trail of Blood. Of course our history prior to the Reformation is through the western Church, and before 1054, Orthodoxy as well.

Jon
No, Jon. Why is it you keep insisting your religion was before the Reformation when it wasn’t? There were only Catholics around and everything was Catholic in belief!
 
Originally Posted by JonNC
I didn’t say we had an independent history prior to 1521. That would be ridiculous, like the Trail of Blood. Of course our history prior to the Reformation is through the western Church, and before 1054, Orthodoxy as well.
No, Jon. **Why is it you keep insisting your religion was before the Reformation when it wasn’t? **
Of course my religion - Christianity - existed before the Reformation!!
Please, read what I wrote again.
There were only Catholics around and everything was Catholic in belief
I can certainly agree with this, regarding the first millenium. The middle of the second is a bit problematic. 😉

Jon
 
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