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Lujack
Guest
Well, if you count the Eastern Orthodox, and the Copts, and the various heretical sects that eventually lost and vanished, that’s not really true.
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W
wisdomseeker
Guest
why is it problematic? do you think because ML left the CC, the CC stopped being the CC? if this was so, then all the movements and sects before ML, would have done the same.Of course my religion - Christianity - existed before the Reformation!!
Please, read what I wrote again.
I can certainly agree with this, regarding the first millenium. The middle of the second is a bit problematic.
Jon
J
jake23
Guest
I do not understand why everyone is getting so worked up over jons ideas! He’s simply a lost man with uneducated opinions instead of facts! He obviously does not wish to aknowledge the facts and though it is sad, it shouldn’t get us worked up!
Actually, no, I don’t think that the CC stopped being the CC. I think during ML’s time and just prior the CC allowed some abuses to rise up. There was undeniably corruption in Rome itself (not saying the papacy approved it, just that it was there.) Some or much of this has been resolved.
But I also have concerns about the direction of the papacy after the schism, papal primacy and all, a concern Lutherans share with the Orthodox. And to a great degree now, that is for me personally, a central issue.
Jon
I don’t see anyone getting worked up. Perhaps you should put me on your ignore list, so as to not be subjected to my uneducated opinions.
Jon
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wisdomseeker
Guest
why is this an issue? do you think you guys are better off without the authority of the CC? do you think just because you are invited to join the CC, the authority of the pope over the Church should end?
why is this a personal issue? do you wish to be the authority over the Church?
ecumenism is a big a problem for the Church because people of other religions who wants to come in wants things to be done their way. i am sure it is not going to work out htis way.
i am sure the CC would be very pleased that all come into the Church but if this is going to be a problem for you guys to accept the doctrines and dogmas of the Church, i think it would be better off if you guys stay where you are. i for one do not wish people of different faith come into our faith and try to destroy what the Church has always tought just accomodate those who do not wish to believe.
i am being honest and truthfull.
:byzsoc:I think we all are worse off outside of unity.
I think you’ve seen me write long enough to know that I don’t demend or even expect or desire the CC to do anything on the say-so of others. I may differ with her on some things, but you know I have great admiration for her. The Bishop of Rome is the patriarch
of the west, and that should never end.
Did I say I wanted to be the authority? You are reading way more into my statement than is there. And if you read the ecumenical documents between Lutherans and Catholics, you will not find those finds of demands. There is a significant difference between demands and dialogue.
Goodness. You seem to have a different take on ecumenism than I do. Having read through some of the joint documents between Lutherans and Catholics, I don’t get a sense that anyone is demanding anything. Rather, there seems to be a genuine effort to dialogue and search for agreement. The demanding that someone change seems to come from the hard-liners in both communions.
Why would I join something simply to destroy it? That doesn’t make sense.
Thank you for doing so. Me too.
Jon
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wisdomseeker
Guest
no, Jon. dialogue? about what? all those outside the Church must do what all Catholics do. it is called the Catholic Profession of Faith. unless the CC does what the Jews did for the gentiles. which is be easy on those outside of our Faith and do not require them to believe and practice what we practice as a whole.
the Church is commanded by Christ to teach and preach the Truth. if the person do not believe we should just walk away.
the Chair of Peter, the pope, he is not just a Patriarch, he is the leader of the whole Church. the Catholic Church. how long more do you guys need to understand this? either you believe this or you dont.
you are looking for proof and not Truth. the Word of God was given to the Jews and now to the True Church. outside the Church, you have no authority to enterpret Scriptures to disprove the CC. the CC is the One entrusted wiht the Word God. protestants got a hold of the Bible and immediatly assumed that they have authority to determine if the CC is teaching the Truth or not. well, you dont. the Jews had authority to question the Apostles about their teaching because to them was given the Word of God and all prophecies. but protestants cannot assume this authority as the Jews did.
this is exactly what protestants do. they read the Bible and assume that they are the people of the Bible. it is time for somebody to bring you guys to reality.
i am just being honest.
In the interests of our continuing to be honest with each other: Yours seems not to be the approach to ecumenism that your Church has taken. Your argument appears to be with your own leadership, in Rome, and the USCCB. Their position is to dialogue - has been for 60 years.
Again, is that the position of your Church?
The other “Lung of the Church” doesn’t believe it either, and they’ve had 500 more years than us to come to their senses.
Are you saying there is no proof of Truth? And are you sure you know what I am looking for?
Why not? Where does that authority come from?
What do you mean by “people of the Bible”?
Who is that person, and how do you think it can be done effectively, with love and charity?
Or, are love, charity and effectiveness even relevent?
Jon
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wisdomseeker
Guest
QUOTE=JonNC;5574188]In the interests of our continuing to be honest with each other: Yours seems not to be the approach to ecumenism that your Church has taken. Your argument appears to be with your own leadership, in Rome, and the USCCB. Their position is to dialogue - has been for 60 years.
no, my argument is not wiht the leadership in Rome. it is wiht protestants who want to come into the Church and cannot make a decision because they think they have authority to judge the Church.
Again, is that the position of your Church?
yes, it is. if you listen, you can hear the pope affirming that the CC is the True Church.
The other “Lung of the Church” doesn’t believe it either, and they’ve had 500 more years than us to come to their senses.
this is not necesserally true. even if so, why do you join them against the CC. the Church you want to be part of?
Are you saying there is no proof of Truth? And are you sure you know what I am looking for?
i am not referring to you personally. i am referring to your religion in general. if there is proof of the Truth, then why havent you accept what the CC has proclaimed for 2000 years.
Why not? Where does that authority come from?
where do you think it comes from? if the CC has no authority, tell me how much authority have ML after he left the Church to find your theology using the Bible alone?
What do you mean by “people of the Bible”?
the Jews. your religion act as if they have been the Jews. like i said. to the Jews was given the Word of God. they could understand what was going on and not gentiles. that is why we need the Church to teach us all about God, things that are visible and invisible.
Who is that person, and how do you think it can be done effectively, with love and charity?
Or, are love, charity and effectiveness even relevent?
i dont beat around the bushes. i dont use emotionalism when i speak. if this is too much for for you to handle, let me know.
again, listen to the Church. charity and Truth goes together. one do not oppose the other. there is no charity without Truth.
i tell you this because i love you and i want you to come into complete obedience to Christ through His Church.
no, my argument is not wiht the leadership in Rome. it is wiht protestants who want to come into the Church and cannot make a decision because they think they have authority to judge the Church.
Again, is that the position of your Church?
yes, it is. if you listen, you can hear the pope affirming that the CC is the True Church.
The other “Lung of the Church” doesn’t believe it either, and they’ve had 500 more years than us to come to their senses.
this is not necesserally true. even if so, why do you join them against the CC. the Church you want to be part of?
Are you saying there is no proof of Truth? And are you sure you know what I am looking for?
i am not referring to you personally. i am referring to your religion in general. if there is proof of the Truth, then why havent you accept what the CC has proclaimed for 2000 years.
Why not? Where does that authority come from?
where do you think it comes from? if the CC has no authority, tell me how much authority have ML after he left the Church to find your theology using the Bible alone?
What do you mean by “people of the Bible”?
the Jews. your religion act as if they have been the Jews. like i said. to the Jews was given the Word of God. they could understand what was going on and not gentiles. that is why we need the Church to teach us all about God, things that are visible and invisible.
Who is that person, and how do you think it can be done effectively, with love and charity?
Or, are love, charity and effectiveness even relevent?
i dont beat around the bushes. i dont use emotionalism when i speak. if this is too much for for you to handle, let me know.
again, listen to the Church. charity and Truth goes together. one do not oppose the other. there is no charity without Truth.
i tell you this because i love you and i want you to come into complete obedience to Christ through His Church.
H
Hisalone
Guest
What you fail to admit as most Catholics do is that the Catholic Church was abusive, corrupt and yes apostate. Any Authority you believe you once had has been removed from you.
Unlike Jon I will say with the knowledge of the pope. How can you buy and sell apostolic offices and not know about it?
Yes how can you say you have the authority of the apostles handed doown to you by the laying on of hands yet many of these folks bought their offices? Did God give them the same authority as the apostles? Did these men rule without error?
Of course not.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
no. this is all exagerated by those who hated the CC and to justify their persecution of the Church.
perhaps you should read more about what ML did before you join him in condemning the CC.
repent and come to the Truth. what you are doing here is lying. Jesus said: I will build My Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." why do you then, come to us and tell us a lie? Jesus speaks the Truth but you speak lies. who do you think we are going to believe? you? or Jesus?
M
Matariel
Guest
Um, it wasn’t. It’s the true Church from God, just as it has been for 2,000 years. there is no need to invent new man-made “churches” like the Protestant sects.
I believe God can only remove that authority (not you) and He has promised He never would remove it from the Church, so this statement of yours if false as well.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Why is this a problem for you?
It most certainly is true. They do not accept papal primacy. It is not a matter of joining, it is a matter of exploring, at least for me.
I asked you first. And I didn’t say the CC had no authority. Who said we use the Bible Alone?
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My religion is Christianity. I have never heard the Lutheran Church describe modern day Christians that way.
I thought you knew me better than that.
And there is no Truth without charity, or at least, Truth can be clouded by a lack of charity. I appreciate your love and concern, and the feelings are mutual.
Jon
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
But it is true. There were a few sects around but that quickly diminished, while the Catholic church still stands. They were off-shoots from Catholicism.
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NotTooSmart
Guest
You may not like to hear this, but reading this thread in entirety has pushed my opinion more towards the negative end with respect to Catholicism.
O
OneTrueCathApos
Guest
That’s because the truth hurts…
N
NotTooSmart
Guest
Ohhh…Kaay (trying to show the fruit of the Holy Spirit here)That’s because the truth hurts…
O
OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Have you researched the Catholic church in which Christ established? And the Early Church Fathers? If not, I suggest you do so. Believe me, you would NOT be concerned about any negativity toward Catholicism, why? Because it is the truth, seriously.
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