Why do we pray for the salvation of all if Aquinas said that the damnation of people is a necessity

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oliver109

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St Thomas Aquinas said that those in Heaven will rejoice at the punishments of the damned and will come to realise how essential their damnation was in order that the blessed may have the most perfect existence possible. If that is the case then why are there prayers for the salvation of all if we need to have some people reprobated in order to perfect God’s order?
 
I agree with Aquinas here. I wouldn’t like to go to Heaven if I would meet Hitler, Lenin and Stalin there.

Maybe prayer for “salvation of all” just means all good Christians.
 
BlueKumul said:
I agree with Aquinas here. I wouldn’t like to go to Heaven if I would meet Hitler, Lenin and Stalin there.
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Don’t ever say that. If you’re able to renounce the eternity with Christ just because you thought that someone else had received unjust (according to you) salvation… well, you have still a long way to go…

The Church is not keen — and never will be — to claim that someone may be in hell. That would be a rash, human judgement — the final, perfectly just judgement always belongs to God Almighty Himself. To Him, who knows the secrets of hearts. The human soul is unfathomable and I don’t think any of us can judge it.

The ways of the Lord are incomprehensible to us, mortals and sinners. Hitler, Lenin and Stalin might as well be in heaven, and it’s none of our business.
 
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Oliver109, could you give precise references of where St Thomas Aquinas writes these things?

Otherwise we run the risk of commenting on the commentator.
 
"In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. So that they may be urged the more to praise God. " Summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV, “Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned,” First Article, “Whether the Blessed in Heaven Will See the Sufferings of the Damned?”
 
Okay!

In my opinion, here is clearer, in the same artcle, and I would summarize:

If I see the evil that I avoided, I appreciate more the good I receive.

So, wrote the Aquinas:

I answer that, Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their beatitude. Now everything is known the more for being compared with its contrary, because when contraries are placed beside one another they become more conspicuous. Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.
 
@oliver109(I apologize for my digression in previous post, but I had to explain the ‘Hitler thing’)

Well we can surely tell, that Heaven will see the Hell, because it is written in Revelation:
And he [one who worship or wears mark of the Beast] will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. [Rev 14:10]
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As in the fragment from Aquinas, given above by @brown_bear — it’s an image of an eternal, ultimate justice, the triumph of the righteous finally separated from the wicked.

Why do we pray for salvation of all tho? I think the key here is hope, that one has to have, hope that even the sins of the greatest sinner are capable of being destroyed in God’s infinite Mercy. We would sin with unbelief in God’s mercy if we claimed that there is a man who cannot be saved by Christ’s Redemptive Sacrifice on the Cross.
 
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Referring to the title of the topic

In any case, throughout Question 94, there is never talk of the need for the damnation of some.

In St Thomas there are not many implicit things, he takes care of making everything explicit.
 
We pray for the salvation of all, because that is what God desires.

(All quotes are NRSV)

Jesus said (Matt 28:19):
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
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2 Peter 3:9 says:
The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
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1 Timothy 2:4 says: God
desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
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We pray for the salvation of all out of love for each individual. Because, if communion with God in heaven/eternity is the best good, then we ought want to desire that good for everyone, since Jesus said (Matt 22:39b):
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
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Aquinas makes it quite clear that God could save everyone but chooses not to as by reprobating some, in other words by enabling some people to choose to be damned he will bring about a greater good for those who are among the elect.
 
I answer that , God does reprobate some. For it was said above (Article 1) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (Question 22, Article 2). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (Question 22, Article 1). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.

Reply to Objection 1 . God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good—namely, eternal life—He is said to hate or reprobated them.
 
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Yeah, I am a relatively new convert and I was a radfem before.

If these people managed to go to Heaven, they have changed so much they are no longer a nuisance.
 
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brown_bear said:
Referring to the title of the topic

In any case, throughout Question 94, there is never talk of the need for the damnation of some.

In St Thomas there are not many implicit things, he takes care of making everything explicit.
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Elsewhere, S.T. I, Q21, Article 1. Whether there is justice in God?, Reply to Objection 3.
… In the word debt, therefore, is implied a certain exigence or necesity of the thing to which it is directed. …Justice, therefore, in God is sometimes spoken of as the fitting accompaniment of His goodness; sometimes as the reward of merit. Anselm touches on either view where he says (Prosolog. 10): “When Thou dost punish the wicked, it is just, since it agrees with their deserts; and when Thou dost spare the wicked, it is also just; since it befits Thy goodness.”
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https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1021.htm
 
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I have read and reread both the last quote from St Thomas and your short summary “Aquinas makes it …” and I cannot find a one-to-one correspondence between the two sides.

In my opinion you make a little too many deductions from the Thomistic texts and, as I have already said, Aquinas is not the man of implicit affirmations, he is one who makes everything explicit to the last word.

But I may not grasp the legitimacy of your inferences, being in my part after lunch time the odds are consistent 😉
 
They are two different things.

If man rejects God, God must exercise his justice.

But a priori the eternal damnation of nobody is necessary.

If men wanted they could all be saved.
 
Aquinas has clearly got a reason why reprobation is a necessity, in theory God could choose to give efficacious grace to all like he did to Mary but he does not as it is the case that a greater good can happen if some are reprobated.
 
brown_bear said:
They are two different things.

If man rejects God, God must exercise his justice.

But a priori the eternal damnation of nobody is necessary.

If men wanted they could all be saved.
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You mean “the need for the damnation of some” and the necessity of justice?

I see that creation is not necessary for the Holy Trinity, therefore neither is giving free will with the possibility of the Beatific Vision or condemnation.
 
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oliver109 said:
St Thomas Aquinas said that those in Heaven will rejoice at the punishments of the damned and will come to realise how essential their damnation was in order that the blessed may have the most perfect existence possible. If that is the case then why are there prayers for the salvation of all if we need to have some people reprobated in order to perfect God’s order?
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That was an opinion he wrote based on his own reasoning and human experience in life. When you see something bad happen to somebody else, it naturally makes you grateful to not be in that position. Somebody who sees a fatal car wreck driving home might be inspired to give their spouse or child a hug.

Praying for the salvation of everybody is necessary because that is the only charitable thing to do. Would you want even your worst enemy in the world to go to hell forever as a result of their own self-exclusion? I’m assuming the answer is no. That would be disturbing.

Peace.
 
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