Why do we pray for the salvation of all if Aquinas said that the damnation of people is a necessity

[BlueKumul]

It was rather stupid for me to say that. If these killers converted just before death, they would spend a lot of time in purgatory and they wouldn’t be evil anymore. Everybody who enters Heaven is a saint, right?

Among these 3, Stalin had the greatest chance since he received a sound Christian upbringing.

 

[Genesis315]

We pray for the salvation of all in the same way God wills all men to be saved–antecedently. St. Thomas himself explains:

To understand this we must consider that everything, in so far as it is good, is willed by God. A thing taken in its primary sense, and absolutely considered, may be good or evil, and yet when some additional circumstances are taken into account, by a consequent consideration may be changed into the contrary. Thus that a man should live is good; and that a man should be killed is evil, absolutely considered. But if in a particular case we add that a man is a murderer or dangerous to society, to kill him is a good; that he live is an evil. Hence it may be said of a just judge, that antecedently he wills all men to live; but consequently wills the murderer to be hanged. In the same way God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned, as His justice exacts. Nor do we will simply, what we will antecedently, but rather we will it in a qualified manner; for the will is directed to things as they are in themselves, and in themselves they exist under particular qualifications. Hence we will a thing simply inasmuch as we will it when all particular circumstances are considered; and this is what is meant by willing consequently. Thus it may be said that a just judge wills simply the hanging of a murderer, but in a qualified manner he would will him to live, to wit, inasmuch as he is a man. Such a qualified will may be called a willingness rather than an absolute will. Thus it is clear that whatever God simply wills takes place; although what He wills antecedently may not take place.

Applying this to our prayer, we do not pray that those deserving of damnation are not damned, but rather that all do penance and believe in the Gospel and so that there are none that deserve damnation. However, as a consequence of their choices, some will be damned, and this is right and just.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Everybody who enters Heaven is a saint, right?

Correct. There is not the smallest lingering thread of evil in Heaven, not even a single atom of it. If a person is in Heaven then they have been perfected in goodness, no matter how evil they were in life.

That being said, the more you engage in evil throughout your life the harder it is for you to have a sincere repentance before death. There are a few cases of extreme reprobates having apparently-sincere conversion just before their deaths, Oscar Wilde is one of the more well known, but such cases are far from normal as far as we know. The testimonies of the Saints, our Holy Mother, and Jesus Christ Himself all attest to the reality of Hell and the fact that many seem to go there, so we shouldn’t expect such conversions to be normal, however much they may be desirable.

Still, we must always pray for all people, especially the most evil among us. We do not desire Hell for anyone, because we desire God’s mercy for all, especially ourselves. If we are unwilling to extend the hope of that mercy to others, it seems unlikely given the words of Jesus the we will have the mercy extended to us. (Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…)

 

[JanR]

I have a problem with the way Aquinas worded certain things, and we must remember that he was only human. I don’t think he was right about everything.

For instance, to say that people in heaven, a place of perfect love, “rejoice at the punishments of the damned” sounds like rejoicing at the misery of others, which I don’t think anyone in heaven would do.

Just my take on it – it sounds uncharitable.

 

[JerryZ]

The question is why do we have to pray for all.
The answer stems from what Jesus taught us in the sermon of the mount: Matthew 5:43 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and you shall have hatred for your enemy.’
5:44 But I say to you: Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. And pray for those who persecute and slander you.
5:45 In this way, you shall be sons of your Father, who is in heaven.
So if a person that was lost but truly repented before dying, GOD knows this, but he/she will need lots of prayers from us to make into Heaven.
Hence HE Jesus commands us to pray for them. Just a thought.
Peace!

 

[stpurl]

I think he wrote in Latin so it is probably a mix of translation issues and also that the sense of ‘rejoice’ back then might not have meant yippee skippee let’s all sing Hallejuia but more like a more solemn acknowledgement of God’s justice and mercy. Not a personal ‘ha ha sinner now you’re sorry’ but more a “yes, Lord, we see what you have done and acknowledge that with perfect understanding you give us, this is the truly right and worthy thing you have done”.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

For instance, to say that people in heaven, a place of perfect love, “rejoice at the punishments of the damned” sounds like rejoicing at the misery of others, which I don’t think anyone in heaven would do.

I don’t think he intends rejoicing to mean reveling, which is how it’s often used today. I think he means it more in the sense that we recognize God’s goodness in the gift of free will, as well as in the mercy He extended to those who sought it. We also celebrate His justice, which is perfect. I doubt we’ll derive happiness from the fact that people are in Hell or the fact that they’re suffering, but we will understand how their sufferings came to be warranted and we will know the graces each of them rejected in arriving there.

 

[BlueKumul]

It is difficult for me to understand. We pray for conversion of sinners, but doesn’t it depend on their free will? God could have easily made Saddam Hussein or Harvey Weinstein a saint, but He respected their free will to do heinous things.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

We pray for conversion of sinners, but doesn’t it depend on their free will?

One thing that new converts, and even life-long Catholics, often have trouble coming to terms with is that prayer isn’t so much about the other person. Yes, we are praying for others because we hope that our prayers will be answered, but the primary purpose of prayer is to align our wills with God. The more we pray, the more we pray well, the more our wills accept God’s will, rather than trying to impose our own. When I pray for the healing of my family, I am more changed by that prayer than the other (generally speaking, of course. There are always exceptions, such as with the spontaneous healing of illness). We pray because we want to move closer to God, and one of the ways we do that is by loving our neighbors more, which is accomplished by praying for them.

That’s not to say that God doesn’t account for our prayers. He has known them from all eternity, and I firmly believe He has accounted for every last prayer that has been / is being / will be uttered in the whole of human history. If I pray for rain, I believe that God has always known that prayer, and His response has been factored into the development of the universe since the Big Bang. As I said in an earlier post, this is something that causes people a lot of trouble. We’re not really going to be able to understand God’s omniscience this side of Heaven because our entire understanding is limited by the concepts of time and linearity.

You are correct though that even though we may pray for a person it doesn’t guarantee that their Will will allow that prayer to be answered. I may pray for my friend to come back to the faith, but that doesn’t mean he will, that’s up to him. We don’t really understand the “economy of prayer,” we aren’t aware of the precise mechanisms by which it operates. What we can surmise is that when we pray for someone we are asking God to increase the graces they are given in the hopes that those graces will lead them to our Lord. God is already granting everyone sufficient grace (enough to come to know Him and be saved.), so our prayers are asking for “more than enough” grace for them. Still, if they won’t accept enough grace, there’s no guarantee they’ll accept more than enough.

(Continued…)

 

[ProdglArchitect]

God could have easily made Saddam Hussein or Harvey Weinstein a saint, but He respected their free will to do heinous things.

This is where you need to be careful. God will not make anyone a saint in the sense you seem to be implying here. God will not overwrite their free will, period. God desires that we love Him, and love without the free act of the will is meaningless. What God does do is give everyone enough grace to come to know and love Him, if they are willing. They still have to make the choice, and sadly many people do not make that choice. They do not want to give up the pleasures of the world.

Don’t worry that you have trouble with this. It’s something we can’t truly understand because our minds are not built to understand it. In Heaven, after the General Judgment, we will see and know the whole scope of the eternal plan, the impact of every prayer and every sin. The full cause for the justification or damnation of all souls. Then, and only then, will we be able to approach true comprehension of these questions.

1 Cor 13:12

At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

 

[JanR]

JanR:

For instance, to say that people in heaven, a place of perfect love, “rejoice at the punishments of the damned” sounds like rejoicing at the misery of others, which I don’t think anyone in heaven would do.

I don’t think he intends rejoicing to mean reveling, which is how it’s often used today. I think he means it more in the sense that we recognize God’s goodness in the gift of free will, as well as in the mercy He extended to those who sought it. We also celebrate His justice, which is perfect. I doubt we’ll derive happiness from the fact that people are in Hell or the fact that they’re suffering, but we will understand how their sufferings came to be warranted and we will know the graces each of them rejected in arriving there.

Okay. That makes sense.

 

[AHapka]

Ok, that’s what he said. Aside from public revelation, you aren’t required to believe it, it might be wrong. That being said, with billions of humans with free will, it’s likely a number have chosen evil. And therefore hell. Even Scripture states at least some are there. Nobody had to choose to reject God, but some did.

 

[MikeInVA]

I have a problem with the way Aquinas worded certain things, and we must remember that he was only human. I don’t think he was right about everything.

First, no one is right about everything. St. Thomas does better than most in my opinion.

Second, St. Thomas does not translate into soundbites very well. He builds his arguments over time, layer upon layer. You need to read him on context, or use a good summary, e.g. A Tour of the Summa by Msgr Glenn.