Why do we pray for the salvation of all if Aquinas said that the damnation of people is a necessity

[Inquiry]

I would much rather meet Hitler in Heaven than meet him in hell. The former means that God has forgiven him and he has accepted, and we should rejoice that a prodigal son has returned to the fold. The latter means I am in hell.

 

[oliver109]

But isn’t Aquinas supposed to be the main voice of reason in the church? the saint one quotes when faced with a dilemma regarding Hell or something else controversial? The Catholic Encyclopedia says: The proximate cause of impenitence in hell is God’s refusal of every grace and every impulse for good. It would not be intrinsically impossible for God to move the damned to repentance; yet such a course would be out of keeping with the state of final reprobation.”

So clearly reprobation is something that has to happen to some souls no matter how hard we pray for the salvation of all?

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I agree with Aquinas here. I wouldn’t like to go to Heaven if I would meet Hitler, Lenin and Stalin there.

It would be a source of great joy if Hitler, Lenin and Stalin were in Heaven.

 

[TK421]

But isn’t Aquinas supposed to be the main voice of reason in the church? the saint one quotes when faced with a dilemma regarding Hell or something else controversial? The Catholic Encyclopedia says: The proximate cause of impenitence in hell is God’s refusal of every grace and every impulse for good. It would not be intrinsically impossible for God to move the damned to repentance; yet such a course would be out of keeping with the state of final reprobation.”

So clearly reprobation is something that has to happen to some souls no matter how hard we pray for the salvation of all?

St Thomas Aquinas was an extremely intelligent 11th century theologian who loved God and who wrote a lot of things about a lot of topics.

About the subject of salvation or damnation: it is inductive. Can you specifically name an individual person who is suppose to go to hell? Of course not. That is because the scriptures specifically say that God wants everybody to be saved and that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. That includes the devil. If some people are suppose to go to hell, then is that something you are willing to volunteer for? St Paul did. He said he would rather be damned himself than watch his brothers be damned. That is how much he wished for their salvation. Would you volunteer somebody else on their behalf?

People might go to hell, but that is a result of following their will, not God’s will. When we pray the Our Father we pray that “thy will be done”. The will of the Father is for all men to come to repentance.

 

[oliver109]

Of course God wills all to be saved, he takes no pleasure in their downfall, God also saves those who he wishes to save, he could save all, he is not helpless when he is faced with mans freedom, mans freedom does not frustrate God from saving him, when God reprobates what he is doing is allowing a person to choose evil indefinitely, God can accomplish anything he wants, if he wants all saved he can have all saved, free will is no barrier to God accomplishing what he wishes.

 

[TK421]

That is a subject of some debate.

 

[MikeInVA]

So clearly reprobation is something that has to happen to some souls no matter how hard we pray for the salvation of all?

I think you’re putting the cart before the horse. God gives all men free will. If they choose to reject Him (as the fallen angels did), He allows them to go to hell. He does not want them to go there; He permits it because of free will. Hell is not necessary to God’s salvation.

 

[oliver109]

Yes Hell is a choice but anyone who has done a complete research on the matter will come to realise that God saves by pumping in grace, someone like Mary had so much grace that she never would commit even a venial sin, most of the saints had enough grace that they would go for decades without committing a mortal sin, the average Catholic would have enough grace that they might sin occasionally but repent soon enough, those with less grace will sin and sin to the end, their fault entirely but it would not have happened if they were given more grace. It is such a complex topic that i would have to spend half a day writing an essay on the issue, maybe i can post one on here later God willing.

 

[MikeInVA]

anyone who has done a complete research on the matter will come to realise that God saves by pumping in grace,

No, you have it absolutely wrong. God does not pump in grace; He offers it to all. Those who accept His grace receive it. Those who do not accept it do not have it pumped in to them. Even Mary could have chosen to turn away but she did not. She had the same free will that any of us have.

 

[AlbMagno]

Because Thomas Aquinas can also be wrong.

 

[Magnanimity]

Yes Hell is a choice but anyone who has done a complete research on the matter will come to realise that God saves by pumping in grace

Oliver, I know you’ve been thinking through this issue for quite some time. You and I have engaged on it in a number of threads over these last couple of years. In your research, I’m sure you’ve come across the confidence of St Augustine in his affirmation that some are surely damned. (His confidence was greatly derided by most preeminent Catholic scholars of recent memory.) And, from even a cursory reading of St Thomas, we see how much he venerates the theology of St Augustine. In a way, Aquinas is merely following Augustine on this issue of Hell. But, in fairness to Aquinas, he was hardly alone in doing so. There is no disputing the fact that in the Western church during the middle ages, eternal-Hell being occupied by some number of humans was thoroughly taken for granted. So, Aquinas is just trying to do some theology about it while taking the truth of it as established and beyond discussion.

Later Thomists (e.g., Rev. Garrigou-Lagrange) try to give some theological underpinnings to the discussion. Do you know of the principle of predilection? It asserts that “to be better than another, one must be more loved by God.”

So for many Thomists, there is basically a rejection of equality within the love of God. They flat out deny that God loves all people equally. In fact, God’s love is so radically unequal that one person (like the Bl Virgin Mary) can be gifted with so high an honor as to carry the savior of the world within her and have all sin withheld from her. And at the opposite end of the divine-love spectrum, other people can suffer much during their human lives on Earth only to be denied the good of eternal life in the hereafter.

It seems to me that inequality sat better within the minds-hearts of theologians in prior ages. But, for 20th century Catholic theologians onward, inequality does not cut it. It’s an unsatisfactory answer to the mystery because, if anything, equality itself has risen almost to the level of justice in terms of human goods that we should all be striving to work toward in the world.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Because the angelic doctor is not beyond error, his writings are not impeccable.

Because John chapter 3.

 

[brown_bear]

Because Thomas Aquinas can also be wrong.

Sure, but studying the matter carefully, as we started doing, this may not be the case.

We started from “St Thomas says”, without quoting, to quote the exact passages in the Summa Theologica.

Then everyone has remained of his idea (it seems to me) but in terms of method the progress is enormous.

 

[GEddie]

That being true, it follows that we must also be exceedingly careful when we tell someone to “go to hell.”

After all, that person’s sins are not only far less egregious than those imputed to the three world villains above named, but possibly less severe than our own, however much they may vex us. By what measure ye mete…!

ICXC NIKA

 

[Latin]

Even Mary could have chosen to turn away but she did not.

Apart from the Blessed Virgin, God intentionally created all of us to be sinners.
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MARY WAS FREE FROM ALL PERSONAL SIN John Paul II

“Testifies that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life.

Trent expresses this conviction, affirming that no one can avoid all sins, even venial sins, throughout his life, unless he is given a special privilege, as the Church holds with regard to the Blessed Virgin (DS 1573).

The Council of Trent asserts, a special privilege guarantees this immunity from sin. And this is what happened with Mary.

The special privilege granted by God to her who is all holy leads us to admire the marvels accomplished by grace in her life.”

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2BVM24.HTM
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For Mary to commit even one act of sin it was a theological impossibility.

Because God granted to Mary her special privilege the immunity from sin and all the graces necessary to infallible accomplish her God’s gift of destiny/ fate.

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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”

If God would willed, He could create us with the privilege of immunity from sin and in this world would be no one could commit even a single act of sin.

CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – God created the dramas of evil and sin for our benefit.

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THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN.

Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.

Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.

In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii. St. Augustine “De ordine” I, vii, n. 18).
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As we see above, we are all sinners because God willed to create us to be sinners for good reason, for the benefit of the entire human race.
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If God would willed, He could granted all of us His special privilege the immunity from sin and all the graces necessary to infallible accomplish our destiny/ fate, like the Blessed Virgin.
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With the graces God granted to the Blessed Virgin, we all would accomplish the same holy life.

God designed the movie of the Blessed Virgin’s holy life from all eternity and given all the graces necessary to accomplish it.

In the same way, God designed the movie of our life from all eternity and given all the graces necessary to accomplish it.
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God bless

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I agree with Aquinas here. I wouldn’t like to go to Heaven if I would meet Hitler, Lenin and Stalin there.

Please don’t even talk like this.

If I meet Hilter / Stalin / Lenin / Moa in Heaven, I’ll praise God for their repentance and go right on being eternally happy in Heaven.

Now, I believe there’s basically a 0% chance of that happening, but still, I wouldn’t reject my own salvation because someone who was undeniably evil on Earth had sincere repentance right before their death.

In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. So that they may be urged the more to praise God.

This is not the same thing as saying that damnation is necessary in the sense implied in your original post. The fact that the saved will see the suffering of the damned and praise God for their own salvation doesn’t make damnation necessary, it’s more like an added effect. The same could likely have been accomplished by the vision of the sufferings of the demons.

I answer that, Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their beatitude. Now everything is known the more for being compared with its contrary, because when contraries are placed beside one another they become more conspicuous. Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation

You have to be very careful when you see the word predestination in Catholic literature. it has a particular meaning that has become dominant in modern language, but that’s not what Catholics mean by the word.

Your understanding is looking at predestination within the scope of time, and not generally how Catholics understand predestination. With very, very few exceptions (such as with Mary, who was preserved from the stain of original sin) no one is predestined towards either end in the sense that they lack the ability to choose for or against God. Even Mary, perfected as she was, could have chosen against God just like our first parents.

From God’s eternal perspective, in a sense we’ve all been predestined for Heaven or Hell. All time is present to Him. The end of our life is as present to Him right now as the beginning. So, from that perspective, He already knows if I’m going to Heaven or Hell.

This is a real struggle some people face, trying to reconcile free will with God’s omniscience. They believe that since God sees the end then we have no control over it. That’s what’s known as double-predestination, and it seems to be how you’re interpreting St. Aquinas’ words. We unequivocally reject double-predestination. God never actively desires that one of His children be damned, similarly, He will never force one of us to choose Him.

God’s permissive will does allow for a person to fall into reprobation, but that isn’t part of His active will. If the reprobate continues to set his will against God then he will suffer the chastisement due for that act of will.

 

[MikeInVA]

I’m not sure that I follow you. Every person has free will, even Mary. If she was unable to sin then she lacked free will, and could not have given her fiat. Pretty much all of our faith rests on free will.

Grace helps you to choose right over wrong, it doesn’t prevent you from sinning.

 

[oliver109]

Grace helps you to choose right over wrong, it doesn’t prevent you from sinning.

You are half right, there are two types of grace, sufficient grace and efficacious grace, efficacious grace will mean that what God desires is carried out without any form of resistance, efficacious grace is basically God putting a feeling, a desire so strong in someone that they cannot do anything but follow what God requires as there is simply no desire for the Christian to turn away from God in that moment. With sufficient Grace the desire to repent say may be there but it ultimately is not strong enough and so the person with sufficient grace may fall back into sin and lose their salvation.

 

[Vico]

MikeInVA:

Grace helps you to choose right over wrong, it doesn’t prevent you from sinning.

You are half right, there are two types of grace, sufficient grace and efficacious grace, efficacious grace will mean that what God desires is carried out without any form of resistance, efficacious grace is basically God putting a feeling, a desire so strong in someone that they cannot do anything but follow what God requires as there is simply no desire for the Christian to turn away from God in that moment. With sufficient Grace the desire to repent say may be there but it ultimately is not strong enough and so the person with sufficient grace may fall back into sin and lose their salvation.

Two kinds of grace are actual grace (which is what sufficient grace and efficacious grace are) and sanctifying (habitual) grace. Efficacious grace does not necessitate the will or destroy human freedom.

Some dogmas of faith, described in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma are:

• There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
• There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
• God gives all the just sufficient grace ( gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens ) for the observation of the Divine Commandments.
• There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious ( gratia vere et mere sufficiens ).