Why do we tolerate liturgical abuses?

[George_G]

It is funny that you say that, when comparing Churches that are in communion with the Church of Rome against those that aren’t, generally those in communion with the Church of Rome loose their language and their strong sense of identity.

For the Antiochan Syriac Maronite Church, vernacularism has put the Church in a state of crisis. Especially with regards to Arabic vernacularism followed by English vernacularism.

Oh, good grief. It’s rude to have conversations in a foreign language here on an English language forum. That’s just common sense, and what JackVk was expressing, I think. Your swipe at the big bad West was unnecessary.

 

[dzheremi]

No, it’s most definitely NOT unnecessary. What Keefabarmorun has written is the truth. Vernacularism has been the death blow to the traditional Syriac praxis of the Maronites (being an Antiochian Syriac church, as they are), because with the divorcing of the Church from its traditional language, they lose the access and connection to the traditional sources of their own spirituality, and are now left with the Arabized, Latinized post-conciliar mess that passes for a Syriac Maronite liturgy these days. Two Maronites are writing to one another in SYRIAC. You ought to be treating it like finding a damn unicorn in your backyard, and instead all you can do is complain about how rude it is because you don’t understand why they would do that. Fine, then don’t read it.

 

[George_G]

No, it’s most definitely NOT unnecessary. What Keefabarmorun has written is the truth. Vernacularism has been the death blow to the traditional Syriac praxis of the Maronites (being an Antiochian Syriac church, as they are), because with the divorcing of the Church from its traditional language, they lose the access and connection to the traditional sources of their own spirituality, and are now left with the Arabized, Latinized post-conciliar mess that passes for a Syriac Maronite liturgy these days. Two Maronites are writing to one another in SYRIAC. You ought to be treating it like finding a damn unicorn in your backyard, and instead all you can do is complain about how rude it is because you don’t understand why they would do that. Fine, then don’t read it.

What are you talking about? I wasn’t addressing any of those issues. Someone complained about conversations being conducted in another language within this thread, and instead of saying sorry (because it’s rude), the poster launched a new complaint about some problems within his church. That’s gross.

 

[dzheremi]

“Gross”?

What’s gross is how some people will butt into a conversation on a public message board specifically to complain about how they can’t understand it, even when the vast majority of it is in a language that they can understand, and salutations and various terms specific to a church of a given cultural background are used precisely because the two people involved in the conversation have in common that particular cultural background. That’s gross.

I’m sorry if you feel left out or think it is rude, but again, I think if you knew anything of the history and current state of the Maronites you’d be far more inclined to see even this small amount of Syriac being used in an everyday (English!) conversation as a minor miracle, and not as something frustrating or rude. It is certainly not something to be discouraged for your supposed benefit, as though you SOOOO miss those salutations, and aren’t just looking for something to complain about. ܐܰܠܳܗ ܠܳܐ ܥܳܒ݂ܶܕ you learn some Syriac or let others do the same…

When do I get to start complaining about all the English I have to use and be subjected to here, anyway? It’s rude to expect others to bend to your will like that, you know…Christianity is not just for the English-speakers, and I don’t recall anyone complaining about the liberal use of Latin in many signatures and threads on this message board. Perhaps I should start, as I find that soooooo alienating…

 

[George_G]

What’s gross is how some people will butt into a conversation on a public message board specifically to complain about how they can’t understand it, even when the vast majority of it is in a language that they can understand, and salutations and various terms specific to a church of a given cultural background are used precisely because the two people involved in the conversation have in common that particular cultural background. That’s gross.

Well, fine. But, that really wasn’t what I was talking about. It just bothers me that instead of explaining what those “salutations” were, or otherwise finding a way to make the situation right, the poster was quick to complain about vernacularism in the liturgy.

I’m sorry if you feel left out or think it is rude, but again, I think if you knew anything of the history and current state of the Maronites you’d be far more inclined to see even this small amount of Syriac being used in an everyday (English!) conversation as a minor miracle, and not as something frustrating or rude.

Again, I’m more concerned about the fact that, rather than address a communication problem that came up here, the poster decided to bring up some other church issue.

It is certainly not something to be discouraged for your supposed benefit, as though you SOOOO miss those salutations, and aren’t just looking for something to complain about. ܐܰܠܳܗ ܠܳܐ ܥܳܒ݂ܶܕ you learn some Syriac or let others do the same…

I don’t understand this sentence at all.

When do I get to start complaining about all the English I have to use and be subjected to here, anyway? It’s rude to expect others to bend to your will like that, you know…Christianity is not just for the English-speakers, and I don’t recall anyone complaining about the liberal use of Latin in many signatures and threads on this message board. Perhaps I should start, as I find that soooooo alienating…

Good grief. I’m not talking about any of that! I’m talking about the particular behavior of a specific poster in this one thread. This is, for all intents and purposes, an English language forum. So, if you speak in another language, it’s understandable that there’s going to be some misunderstanding. When misunderstanding happens, one should say “I’m sorry, there’s been a misunderstanding here” and then attempt to clarify the matter. What one does NOT do is go on a tangent about how Rome is the destroyer of all that good and true and beautiful.

 

[malphono]

Well, fine. But, that really wasn’t what I was talking about. It just bothers me that instead of explaining what those “salutations” were, or otherwise finding a way to make the situation right, the poster was quick to complain about vernacularism in the liturgy.

Again, I’m more concerned about the fact that, rather than address a communication problem that came up here, the poster decided to bring up some other church issue.

The title of the thread speaks to that. The poster was well within the scope of his own thread.

I don’t understand this sentence at all.

Good grief. I’m not talking about any of that! I’m talking about the particular behavior of a specific poster in this one thread. This is, for all intents and purposes, an English language forum. So, if you speak in another language, it’s understandable that there’s going to be some misunderstanding. When misunderstanding happens, one should say “I’m sorry, there’s been a misunderstanding here” and then attempt to clarify the matter. What one does NOT do is go on a tangent about how Rome is the destroyer of all that good and true and beautiful.

The poster in question may not be a native speaker of English, and thus it is distinctly possible that he missed the veiled nuance of the original remark. It might be nice to give a charitable break instead of coming down on him (or us) like a ton of bricks.

And BTW, what is “making the situation right” supposed to mean? To translate every word? Perhaps if it were anything of substance, but as dzheremi has already pointed out, they are simple greetings and time-of-day pleasantries. Not that that makes any real difference. I’ve seen plenty of posts in this forum that have included the use of both the Cyrillic and Greek alphabets, and for matters that were more substantial than mere pleasantries, yet I have never seen complaints of this sort. Apparently, it’s only when Maronites dare to so much as even transliterate a word or two of Syriac that the axe falls. How discriminating. As Queen Victoria is reputed to have said: We are not amused.

And as for the rest, it seems to me that the poster is well within the scope of his own thread.

 

[keefabarmorun]

Well, fine. But, that really wasn’t what I was talking about. It just bothers me that instead of explaining what those “salutations” were, or otherwise finding a way to make the situation right, the poster was quick to complain about vernacularism in the liturgy.

Again, I’m more concerned about the fact that, rather than address a communication problem that came up here, the poster decided to bring up some other church issue.

I don’t understand this sentence at all.

Good grief. I’m not talking about any of that! I’m talking about the particular behavior of a specific poster in this one thread. This is, for all intents and purposes, an English language forum. So, if you speak in another language, it’s understandable that there’s going to be some misunderstanding. When misunderstanding happens, one should say “I’m sorry, there’s been a misunderstanding here” and then attempt to clarify the matter. What one does NOT do is go on a tangent about how Rome is the destroyer of all that good and true and beautiful.

May the Peace of Our Lord Jesus-Christ be with You George,

Obviously there’s been some mis-understanding on my part and on yours.

I had assumed that the poster in question was given a one liner answer to the thread question, and that he was making a veiled reference to the issues related to the Western Church, as it transitioned from the Latin to the English language. I think if your read my response in this context it will make more sense.

I’ll will keep you and everyone on this forum in my prayers and look forward to continuing the discussion.

Your Brother in Christ,
keefa bar morun

 

[George_G]

The poster in question may not be a native speaker of English, and thus it is distinctly possible that he missed the veiled nuance of the original remark. It might be nice to give a charitable break instead of coming down on him (or us) like a ton of bricks.

You may be right. I didn’t mean to come down on anyone. If I did, I apologize. But, I think the point I was trying to make still holds true. Part of being charitable it not assuming that everything is an attack or a slight, or not acting out of that assumption. And, yes, I mean this for myself too.

And BTW, what is “making the situation right” supposed to mean? To translate every word? Perhaps if it were anything of substance, but as dzheremi has already pointed out, they are simple greetings and time-of-day pleasantries.

Well, yeah. If someone doesn’t “get it” then explain it to them. I had no idea they were Syriac(?) greetings. I’ve never seen that language before. For all I know they could be talking about football, or something.

Not that that makes any real difference.

Of course it makes a difference. Trying to make peace with a brother always makes a difference.

I’ve seen plenty of posts in this forum that have included the use of both the Cyrillic and Greek alphabets, and for matters that were more substantial than mere pleasantries, yet I have never seen complaints of this sort. Apparently, it’s only when Maronites dare to so much as even transliterate a word or two of Syriac that the axe falls.

As I said, I’ve never seen that language before. I’m sure most people here have never seen it. So, it’s not surprising that some might be confused by it. With some other languages it’s pretty easy to guess that people are saying something. . . churchy.

And as for the rest, it seems to me that the poster is well within the scope of his own thread.

Sure. I don’t doubt that the problems that he was speaking about are real.

Anyway. I don’t want to keep the thread off track any longer. As to the original post, I think what’s happening in our liturgies today simply reflects whats happening in the culture at large, specifically the loss of a sense of history and the importance of tradition.

 

[George_G]

May the Peace of Our Lord Jesus-Christ be with You George

And with you.

Obviously there’s been some mis-understanding on my part and on yours.

I had assumed that the poster in question was given a one liner answer to the thread question, and that he was making a veiled reference to the issues related to the Western Church, as it transitioned from the Latin to the English language. I think if your read my response in this context it will make more sense.

So, I misunderstood your misunderstanding. Awesome.

I’ll will keep you and everyone on this forum in my prayers and look forward to continuing the discussion.

Thank you for your kind reply.

 

[keefabarmorun]

One question that comes to mind is which version of the shhimtho is downloadable on the Beth Souryoyé Monrounoyé site?

We have the “shHimto z’urto” posted on the site. We are hoping to have the “shHimto rabto” posted on the site before next summer.

Another question is, is there a plan to add the fenquitho to the site?

Yes, definitely. Hopefully we will have a large part of them online by next summer. Our plan is to make all Syriac Maronite resources available online, so that all Syriac Maronites and anyone else who might be interested in them can have access to them.

A third concerns the 1982 versions. I’m familiar with the English-language version (it’s quite an aberration) and I have to assume that the Arabic version reflects the same sort of nonsense. The question is, if a Syriac text of it actually exists, where can it be found?

We purchased from Lebanon (USEK Bookstore) a few copies for use by “Beith Souryoyé Morounoyé” members, but we quickly stopped using it in favour of the “shHimto z’urto” and now we use the “shHimto rabto”. The “z’urto”, since it is online is used when we don’t have access to the “rabto”.

Since I don’t have a copy of the English one, here’s a quick description of it:
Ramsho:
-Opens with: Peace to the Church and her children (in Arabic)
-Glory to God in the highest … (in Arabic)
-First Prayer (in Arabic)
-First Hymn (in Syriac)
-Psalm (in Arabic)
-Second Prayer (in Arabic)
-Second Hymn (in Syriac)
-Night Psalm (in Arabic)
-Sugheeto (in Syriac)
-sTomen qalos … (in Syriacised Greek)
-proomeeyon (in Arabic)
-sedro (in Arabic)
-Incense Hymn (in Syriac)
-‘eTro (in Arabic)
-Reading Psalm (in Syriac)
-Readings (in Arabic)
-bo’ooto (in Syriac)
-We confess … quryeleyson … (in Syriac)
-qadeeshat … (in Syriac)
-Our Father (in Syriac)
-The Concluding prayer (in Syriac)

Sootoro: (All in Syriac)
-shubHo
-Prayer
-First Prayer
-First Hymn
-Psalm
-sTomen qalos … (in Syriacised Greek)
-proomeeyon
-sedro
-Incense Hymn
-‘eTro

• bo’ooto
  -We confess … quryeleyson …
  -qadeeshat …
  -Our Father
  -The Concluding prayer

Safro: Like ramsho is a mix of Syriac and Arabic

Sixth-Hour: All in Syriac

Midnight-Hour: All in Syriac

In any case the shHimto of 1982 has been over pruned.

From the absence of any mention of the OMM, I have to assume that they are farther removed from authenticity than even the OLM. Based on what I’ve seen of OMM style, I have the distinct impression that they may have crossed the line into the realm of being unredeemable. Of course the ML has been in that category for quite some time.

The OMM is heavily westernised and it would be hard to distinguish it from a modern Western order.

In comparing the 1992 and 2005 versions, the only thing I can say is that the 2005 presents a major degradation and is indicative of unrelenting progress toward more Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations.

Yes in many areas that is true, especially with regards to the rubric. I’ll be going away for the remainder of the week, so hopefully when I come back I’ll be able to explore this subject further.

Oh yes, I know the site well, as you may have gathered from my questions above. I’ve yet to figure out the “DeJa” player, but I’ll give that another go.

Go to the following link and download the Browser plugin: (this will permit you to view the DjVu right off the website and also as a file off your computer)
caminova.net/en/downloads/download.aspx?id=1

push bashlomo,
keefa bar morun

 

[keefabarmorun]

shlom lokh WetCatechumen,

I serve at the altar at our Maronite mission monthly (as often as we have Qurbono) and I wish we did more Syriac - even “itraheim alein” would be better. Right now, the only Syriac is the consecration.

That is unfortunate, but based on Bkerke’s worldwide requirements the following have to be said in Syriac:
-lbaytokh …
-qadeeshat …
-ite lwot …
-eno no laHmo dHaye … (Optional but highly recommended)
-lmaryam yoldath aloho … (Optional but highly recommended)
-shubHo labo … (Optional but highly recommended)
-byawmo haw daqdom …
-hokhano 'al koso …
-'nin moryo. 'nin ,oryo … (Optional but highly recommended)
-eno eno laHmo dHaye … (Needs to be said Syriac during major feasts)
-qabel moran baHnonokh … (Needs to be said Syriac when remembering the dead)

As for anything else, it is up to the priest on whether he uses the Syriac and/or the vernacular. Prior to the 1992 qurbono, there was a larger amount of the qurbono that had to be said in Syriac. I miss those days.

push bashlomo,
keefa bar morun

 

[keefabarmorun]

Hi LumenGent,

Hi Keefabarmorun.

It is great to have both you and Malphono here to enlighten us with your Maronite expertise.

Thank you, it is good to be here and meet you and everyone else!

I found that it goes both ways, however the general rule is that it is worse. I’ll give you a few examples:

Service of the Word: The Houssoyo’s are shortened

Yes, that is true. The meaning in some cases is so mangled that it no longer delivers its message. This part of the Service of the Word is meant to instruct the faithful (like a Catechism), but with some of the reductions in it are falling short of what is required.

The Hoosoyo was always held to high esteem because of its beauty and instructive nature. Previously, all that a Syriac Maronite had to do was study the Hoosoyo to learn the faith, but the reduced/new ones fall short in this respect.

Service of the Eucharist:1)The Anaphoral Prayers are butchered. Look at the Prayer of the imposition of the hand in the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles : The King of Kings and Lord of lords is removed.

No, it is still there as per the Bkerke 2005 qurbono

1. Some of the whispered Prayers are now said aloud eg: The Prayer after the Sanctus prior to the Consecration is traditionally whispered. The Epiklesis is also traditionally whispered, in the 2005 Missal, it is said aloud.

Neither the 1979, 1992, or the 2005 rubric give instructions on the prayer after the Sanctus, which is another Sanctus. The 1594 qurbono says that priest says it while bowing. The Syriac Orthodox version of it has the priest saying it silently.

3)The COMMUNION RITE blessing immediately before the Fraction is removed.

These are just off the top of my head.

It is strange that they remove it, I will have to look into it further to find out why. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it comes back in a later version of the text.

push bashlomo,
keefa bar morun

 

[malphono]

LumenGent;8074312:

Service of the Eucharist:1)The Anaphoral Prayers are butchered. Look at the Prayer of the imposition of the hand in the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles : The King of Kings and Lord of lords is removed.

No, it is still there as per the Bkerke 2005 qurbono

Yes, but remember it’s only in the Syriac text. The Arabic text (and thus the English – and other-language versions – derived from it) has changed the wording in typical Novus Ordo style.

LumenGent;8074312:

1. Some of the whispered Prayers are now said aloud eg: The Prayer after the Sanctus prior to the Consecration is traditionally whispered. The Epiklesis is also traditionally whispered, in the 2005 Missal, it is said aloud.

Neither the 1979, 1992, or the 2005 rubric give instructions on the prayer after the Sanctus, which is another Sanctus. The 1594 qurbono says that priest says it while bowing. The Syriac Orthodox version of it has the priest saying it silently.

The prayer before the Preface was said gehontho (low-voice), the Preface tolo qoleh (aloud) and the prayer after the Preface (while the “Sanctus” was said by the deacons/congregation) again gehontho. (I wouldn’t exactly call it a “2nd Sanctus” but never mind that.) This was actually the same as the SOC practice. Following its aversion to any low-voice priestly prayers (which of course is true to its Novus Ordo mindset), the “commission” has conjoined the 1st gehontho above with the Preface itself into one rather unwieldy prayer.

The Invocation to the Epiklesis (immediately before the 'anin moryo), which was traditionally low-voice, has also been mangled and is now said aloud. The diaconal admonition which accompanied it has likewise been mangled. Again, their aversion to anything low-voice.

 

[malphono]

We have the “shHimto z’urto” posted on the site. We are hoping to have the “shHimto rabto” posted on the site before next summer.

Yes, definitely. Hopefully we will have a large part of them online by next summer. Our plan is to make all Syriac Maronite resources available online, so that all Syriac Maronites and anyone else who might be interested in them can have access to them.

Thanks for the info. I look forward to seeing them.

We purchased from Lebanon (USEK Bookstore) a few copies for use by “Beith Souryoyé Morounoyé” members, but we quickly stopped using it in favour of the “shHimto z’urto” and now we use the “shHimto rabto”. The “z’urto”, since it is online is used when we don’t have access to the “rabto”. …

OK, so it’s just as I thought. It’s pretty much the same as the English-language version, the major difference being that the latter has no Syriac whatsoever.

In any case the shHimto of 1982 has been over pruned.

The pruning shears of the “commission” never seem to stop. By the time they’re finished, they will have pruned the roots and killed them. They get closer and closer by the day. And you know that I am not speaking merely of the shhimtho.

The OMM is heavily westernised and it would be hard to distinguish it from a modern Western order.

The sad thing is that they have lately become very visible.

Go to the following link and download the Browser plugin: (this will permit you to view the DjVu right off the website and also as a file off your computer)
caminova.net/en/downloads/download.aspx?id=1

Thanks. I’ll give it a try.

 

[Halyna]

I am not a theologian and do not understand other languages, so I cannot fully understand your question. However,

I find a great deal of abuse in the RomanCatholic church.

1. There is NO respect for the presence in the tabernacle
2. There is no respect for prayer before and/or after the Mass
3. There is no tolerance for anyone they do not understand, esp Eastern Rite Catholics