Why do women have abortions?

[fix]

Actually, it is deceptive.

The state is deceptive. Reality exists.

You are using a word incorrectly to elicit an emotional response from an audience.

No, the state is misusing their authority to densensitize people.

Killing it an unjust killing of a human being* if you want, but it isn’t murder in western countries.

Semantics is needed to cover up what is really going on. That is why you reject the proper terms.

*There is debate in wheather the unborn are technically human beings, but that’s a debate for another day considering most of you feel the need to ignore dictionaries.

There is debate about all manner of things but that does not change objective truth. It simply means some folks are confused.

 

[Isambard]

Well, you mean in some abstract sense that particular govervment would not term it murder. In reality, it is murder no matter how some confused government calls it.

No its not. The label of murder implies illegality by definition.

Again, simply renaming some action based on some civil law does not change what that action authentically is. I mean the state can call murder orange juice but that is illegitimate.

That would only hold true if murder used to mean one concrete thing across all cultures that didn’t involve a sort of legal system. Thats a fantasy. Its always been tethered to illegality. Just check the OT, or pull out a Torah to see how even in the Ten Commandmants, it was a legal decree.

Now stop trying to botch the english language by using terms improperly.

 

[st_lucy]

Murder is the unlawful killing of human beings.

So it wouldn’t be murder in England. It might be deemed murder by the human rights branch of the U.N, but thats delving into a political debate between national and supranational governing bodies (which would be off-topic).

This reminds me of an old saying:

My uncle once said, “Boy, do you see that horse?”

Yessir.

“How many legs does that horse have?”

Four.

“Now what if I say that a horse’s tail is a leg, too?”

Uh...

“If I call a horse’s tail a leg, how many legs does that horse have?”

Five?

“Boy, will you never learn? It doesn’t matter what you call something. That horse still has four legs.”

 

[mapleoak]

Why should a child be put to death because of the sins of his father. The father (rapist) doesn’t even get put death for the sin of rape, but yet you are saying the child should?Have you ever met a child who was conceived from a rape?

Rape is the only crime where the victim is punished by murder.

Abortion is the ending of a life,. No matter how ones life might have began we must protect it.

Exactly. Abortion is murder and the right to life supercedes all others as the most fundemental of human rights.

 

[fix]

No its not. The label of murder implies illegality by definition.

That would only hold true if murder used to mean one concrete thing across all cultures that didn’t involve a sort of legal system. Thats a fantasy. Its always been tethered to illegality. Just check the OT, or pull out a Torah to see how even in the Ten Commandmants, it was a legal decree.

Now stop trying to botch the english language by using terms improperly.

Please stop redefining acts to cover up for immorality.

Murder is unlawful and that is from the eternal law. The state only has legitimate authority in this area when it does not contradict eternal law.

If you think any state has the authority to redefine life or what murder means then you have a problem with perceiving reality accurately.

To make this simple any state that thinks it is lawful to murder another is wrong. This is common sense.

 

[fix]

This reminds me of an old saying:

My uncle once said, “Boy, do you see that horse?”

Yessir.

“How many legs does that horse have?”

Four.

“Now what if I say that a horse’s tail is a leg, too?”

Uh...

“If I call a horse’s tail a leg, how many legs does that horse have?”

Five?

“Boy, will you never learn? It doesn’t matter what you call something. That horse still has four legs.”

Yes, and if the state calls a tail a leg then it magically becomes a leg.

 

[Valke2]

I don’t advocate death sentences for anyone, I am pro-life!

And no I do not advocate jail time for most women who have had an abortion, because I strongly believe that most women are either coerced or just plain lied to about their abortion. Most women I have talked to had no idea that they just killed a whole separate human being.

If it is murder, then they must serve time as murderers. Your belief that most women are coerced is pure speculation. If abortion is murder, than the woman who has an abortion is obviously guilty of murder. Certianly, her guilt is equal to the person who is performing it. How can she not then be required to serve time as a murderer?

 

[Valke2]

murderess - a woman murderer
liquidator, manslayer, murderer - a criminal who commits homicide (who performs the unlawful premeditated killing of another human being)

Abortion is murder. Is the woman committing the act a murderess? First the act must be pre-meditated and I would also add with full knowledge and forethought of what the act consists of. As I posted earlier, I do not hold a blanket charge of murder for all women having abortions, nor do I hold them to be murderesses. Many women who feel abortion is the only option base their beliefs on what society tells them is acceptable and what society tells them is a legal way to end a difficulty, ie. an unwanted child. Many are confused and have little support. I hold those people more accountable who know exactly what they are doing and what is happening, such as agencies as Planned Parenthood, also the doctors and nurses who assist in such travesties. Does a murder occur, yes. Is the person having the abortion a murderess? That would depend upon their intent and full knowledge of what they are doing. They will be judged by God.

Look. If you take the position that abortion is murder. Than the woman who walks into a clinc to murder her child is a murdere. That she might feel she had no other option may be a mitigating cricumstance for the jury to consider. But she should be tried as a murderess. How can you possibly hold the instuttion that performs the operation more accountable than the woman who makes the decision to go there and kill her baby? It seems to me that if one is reluctant to put a woman on trial for murder than they have some doubt as to whether abortion = murder.

 

[fix]

Is every single murder prosecuted in the exact same way in every state and county today? Do we not take each case separately and consider who was involved, the circumstances, the law, and other factors?

 

[Valke2]

Is every single murder prosecuted in the exact same way in every state and county today? Do we not take each case separately and consider who was involved, the circumstances, the law, and other factors?

Yes, we take factors into consideration. But first we arrest and charge them. Each defendant can raise whatever defenses they can come up with at trial. But do you at least agree that a woman who has an abortion should be charged with murder?

 

[fix]

Yes, we take factors into consideration. But first we arrest and charge them. Each defendant can raise whatever defenses they can come up with at trial. But do you at least agree that a woman who has an abortion should be charged with murder?

Yes, if the case warrants that. But, like every other case the facts will determine what charges are used.

 

[Valke2]

Ok.

But if I said a woman who takes her child to the lake and drowns her is a murderess, I don’t think the first instinct would be to say “depends on whether the facts of the case warrant it”. Otherwise we could never engage in a conversation about murderers.

On a similar note: If a 18 year old woman gets pregnant from an ex boyfriend and decides she does not want the baby. She goes to a doctor and has an abortion. Should she be charged with murder?

 

[fix]

Ok.

But if I said a woman who takes her child to the lake and drowns her is a murderess, I don’t think the first instinct would be to say “depends on whether the facts of the case warrant it”. Otherwise we could never engage in a conversation about murderers.

Yes, but but how she is charged will depend on intent and other things. She may have killed her children, but that does not mean she will be charged with first degree murder.

 

[fix]

On a similar note: If a 18 year old woman gets pregnant from an ex boyfriend and decides she does not want the baby. She goes to a doctor and has an abortion. Should she be charged with murder?

Probably. Again, was she pressured? Was she abused? Was she on drugs? Does she have a brain tumor? Do we have all the circumstances? The prosecutor has the obligation to bring appropriate charges.

 

[Valke2]

who cares if she was pressured?

 

[fix]

who cares if she was pressured?

I guess decent people and the law? I mean if she were told get this abortion or I will beat you severely or kill you would not think that is important to intent?

 

[st_lucy]

If it is murder, then they must serve time as murderers. Your belief that most women are coerced is pure speculation. If abortion is murder, than the woman who has an abortion is obviously guilty of murder. Certianly, her guilt is equal to the person who is performing it. How can she not then be required to serve time as a murderer?

Out of all of the women who I have known to have abortions more than half of them were coerced. And of those I know, who weren’t coerced only one of them had no idea that it was an actual child that was being murdered.

There is no IF abortion is murder there is only YES abortion is murder.

In the Raping of Nanking, when the Japanese soldiers put guns in children’s hands and forced them to pull the triggers to kill their own parents, were those children murders? Just as in all murders not all suspects are arrested and carted off to jail. We look at all the circumstances and evaluate the situation. Most of these women have already been traumatized with the murder of their child.

I do however believe that the government should pay for counseling sessions for these women since it is the government who has let these horrible lies go on.

 

[NTOT]

Same reason why I choose to “kill” the sickly by refusing to be an organ donner.

I find it humerous that the poster who was trying to promote a convoluted definitions of the words kill and “donner” starting at post #49 is now promoting convoluted definitions of the word murder. Perhaps look up the word kill so as to understand it before even attempting to look up the definition of a word that has kill as part of the definition.

Mr. Strawman, we meet again.

I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension.

Hello Mr. Non-sequiter

Your attempt at misleading information has been noted.

this is a lie.

I suggest you reseach what your talking about to avoid sounding ignorant.

You have some sort of strange fascination with being wrong dont you?

You should pray pro-life ppl learn use dictionaries prior to opening their mouths.

Believing one is correct because of extreme ignorance to debate methods. A classic.

Remember to read and correct your mistakes as they are pointed out to you.

Get it thru your head.

Claiming you are correct in the face of a mountain of evidence is usually a sign of insanity.

Get it thru your head.

Stop lying, or show some evidence.

Get it thru your head.

No its not. Stop lying.

I see you’ve resorted to parroting me.

I see your faith goggles have blinded you to reality.

I see you’ve resorted to parroting yourself. *

To which I point out your impish and childish behavior:

Stumbled across this thread and happened upon a goading goat kid. You can’t possibly think anyone here is actually taking you seriously do you?
Maturity can be a difficult thing to grasp for some.

To which you responded:

That it is. Like for those who contribute nothing to a thread except an attempt at character assassination.

Character assassination implies wrongful attack of ones character. I am merely pointing our your obvious self promoted character. Like I said, if you cannot handle your own medicine, you can cry and go home and tell mommy. True signs of a bully.
To which you respond:

You realize that your post constitutes as spam and is reportable correct?

And I suppose you will also be reporting to mommy all of your above reportable spam. Correct? Shame, Shame, Shame. :tsktsk:

The fine people on this thread are certainly to be credited for their patience and at least giving you the benefit of the doubt. I would hope you would at the very least apologize for all of you patronizing remarks.

• Oh, and lets see who is the real talking parrot?

Originally Posted by Isambard %between%

a. Abortion in (most) Western states is by definition, not murder.

Yes it is.

No it isnt

Quote:
b. Again, its a personal access to your body issue.

No it isn’t.
Isambard;4157375:

Yes it is.

 

[mapleoak]

The fine people on this thread are certainly to be credited for their patience and at least giving you the benefit of the doubt. I would hope you would at the very least apologize for all of you patronizing remarks.

You notice I stopped responding quite some time ago with the obvious exception of post 170 referring to the talking parrot!

 

[Liverpoolmum]

I’m a new member here and quite shocked by the posts i’ve read (some highlighted above). I thought this was a forum for Catholic answers, not one for twisting words and trying to sound clever.

Anyway, here’s my opinion, feel free to rip it apart if you have nothing better to do.

Abortion is the termination of a concieved human life, it IS murder. I know people who have had abortions and as some of the posters here, all have regretted it. They saw a ‘LEGAL’ way out of a sticky situation and took it and then regretted it because the guilt of not letting their child live is with them daily. One was a late abortion of a ‘possible downs syndrome child’ - note: the mother only had a ‘possible’ result to her amniosynthesis.

I had 2 miscarriages which were traumatic for me, one especially as when I had a D&C afterwards I was taken to a ward to recover with women who had elected to end their pregnancies. I was there in bits because my baby had died and I couldnt understand how these other women could have decided for themselves to end their pregnancies. One was a girl of about 15 whose mother had brought her and I could see that she didnt want to be there. Hearing them talk afterwards some were really sorry, crying and very upset about what they’d done, but others were happily going home and seemingly not at all bothered about what they had done. This is not because they are heartless or evil but simply because the procedure is LEGAL and to them that means its ok.

Theres no point pulling up wikipedia definitions of Murder, Manslaughter or comparing abortion to any other medical procedure or to withholding organ donation. Abortion is getting rid of a human life, a life that may well be poor, delinquent and expensive for the economy but also could be the person who finds the cure for cancer. But we’ll never know because these people are now dead.

Incidentally my doctors note for work when I had my first miscarriage said ‘termination of pregnancy’ I refused to take that note because it sounded like my miscarriage was intentional and insisted that the doctor said ‘miscarriage’ on the not because thats what I’d had.