"Why do you believe in God?"

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I believe in God because there is nothing else absolutely worth believing in without Him.
 
JRKH said:
You are quite right. IT DOES all boil down to faith. This is true of non-belief as well as belief.

In some ways I have felt that the non-believer needs a greater faith than many believers. After all, the non-believer must be so convinced (based on the same murky evidence) that he is willing to stake his eternity on the position that God does not exist.

Of course I also believe that there are relatively few who actually and categorically deny that God (in any shape or form) exists. More often I find that what is being rejected is a specific description of God that they have received from one source or another.

You seem to be just such an example since you list your religion as “Deist”. If your beliefs are at least generally in line with what is expressed in the Wiki article HERE, the certainly I would count you as a believer in God.
And I would be interested in knowing, as the OP has asked, Why you believe in God?

Further - I would be interested in gaining a greater understanding of why the Deist rejects the idea of miracles and special revelation. But perhaps that is something for a different thread. Shall I start one??

Peace
James
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James,

I think that you are correct regarding faith. I still hold open the possibility of God, I just firmly reject the Christian God. All through my years as a Catholic I heard things that simply could not be attributed to a God with all the positives assigned by Christianity, His only purpose seemed to be control. So, they started the indoctrination young. In my group, better than half I would guess were bluffing to keep our parents off our backs. I often wouldn’t even go that far.

Regarding miracles and revelation I’m not certain that all Deists do reject them. Deism is more of a discussion group then a religion. We accept the possibility of God yet believe that the evidence shows one who does not intervene in the affairs of man. Miracles and revelation are not only a form of interfering, they are rather discriminatory. Only a scant few ever receive them under the Christian model.

Why do I believe in God as a Deist? Because the existence of a God helps to explain some of the gaps in the early (by man’s view) universe.

I have a great friend who is a devout Catholic. She has told me for the last nearly 40 years that my attempts to rejoin the faith always seem to be sabotaged by an analytic nature. If something doesn’t make sense in the natural or supernatural realm…I reject it.

Thanks for listening.
 
Hey oldcelt,

No problem. I enjoy such conversation. Thanks for such a great explanation.

Having also been raised Catholic I understand what you mean about “control” and such. It’s been an unfortunate aspect I think that often times there doesn’t seem to be a real good transition between the “control” aspects of our early learning (which is not bad for youngsters) and a more mature examination of the why’s of things. I agree that it can leave a rather bad taste on the spirit.

I also am something of an inquisitive and “scientific” type and like things explained. And as you say God is certainly a great “answer” to the various gaps we run into.

That said, I do thing that a more mature consideration of God can yield great insight and understanding as to some of the issues you mention…such as whether God does or does not intervene - and why only a scant few have “supernatural” experiences and so forth.

The big problem in this area is that most people (believers and non-believers both) want simple and pat explanations - - and then get frustrated when these are not entirely satisfying. Of course I’m grossly generalizing here…so the usual caveats apply.
    • But - -
      To hi-jack something I heard some time ago…Studying God is like studying quantum mechanics. If you don’t get a headache, you aren’t doing it right…😃
At least that is my view.

Peace
James
 
oldcelt said:
James,

I think that you are correct regarding faith. I still hold open the possibility of God, I just firmly reject the Christian God. All through my years as a Catholic I heard things that simply could not be attributed to a God with all the positives assigned by Christianity, His only purpose seemed to be control. So, they started the indoctrination young. In my group, better than half I would guess were bluffing to keep our parents off our backs. I often wouldn’t even go that far.

Regarding miracles and revelation I’m not certain that all Deists do reject them. Deism is more of a discussion group then a religion. We accept the possibility of God yet believe that the evidence shows one who does not intervene in the affairs of man. Miracles and revelation are not only a form of interfering, they are rather discriminatory. Only a scant few ever receive them under the Christian model.

Why do I believe in God as a Deist? Because the existence of a God helps to explain some of the gaps in the early (by man’s view) universe.

I have a great friend who is a devout Catholic. She has told me for the last nearly 40 years that my attempts to rejoin the faith always seem to be sabotaged by an analytic nature. If something doesn’t make sense in the natural or supernatural realm…I reject it.

Thanks for listening.
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When I was briefly a Deist that was how I viewed God only I thought it was the Christian God not being active in the Universe.
 
JRKH said:
Hey oldcelt,

No problem. I enjoy such conversation. Thanks for such a great explanation.

Having also been raised Catholic I understand what you mean about “control” and such. It’s been an unfortunate aspect I think that often times there doesn’t seem to be a real good transition between the “control” aspects of our early learning (which is not bad for youngsters) and a more mature examination of the why’s of things. I agree that it can leave a rather bad taste on the spirit.

I also am something of an inquisitive and “scientific” type and like things explained. And as you say God is certainly a great “answer” to the various gaps we run into.

That said, I do thing that a more mature consideration of God can yield great insight and understanding as to some of the issues you mention…such as whether God does or does not intervene - and why only a scant few have “supernatural” experiences and so forth.

**The big problem in this area is that most people (believers and non-believers both) want simple and pat explanations - - and then get frustrated when these are not entirely satisfying. Of course I’m grossly generalizing here…so the usual caveats apply.
    • But - - **
      To hi-jack something I heard some time ago…Studying God is like studying quantum mechanics. If you don’t get a headache, you aren’t doing it right…😃
At least that is my view.

Peace
James
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This is one of my major problem areas, but I don’t get frustrated, I get angry…very angry. I just watched an example of an occurrence over the Holiday that no all-loving God would have anything to do with and since there is no possible good that could come out of it would never have conceived of it. Yet we were taught that He knows all, is all powerful, and is everywhere. The only answer I have been able to reach for tragedies like this is a non-interventionist God…one who began creation and stepped back.

What is unusual about my case is that I was really trying to strengthen my Catholic faith when my doubts rose to new heights. I have all the appropriate books, studied the lives of the Saints, etc…was attending almost daily Mass, and fell further and further away.
 
adawgj said:
When I was briefly a Deist that was how I viewed God only I thought it was the Christian God not being active in the Universe.
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A different twist on the ill-defined Deist system. There are probably as many as there are Deists. Thomas Jefferson removed all the miracles and supernatural events from the Bible.
 
oldcelt said:
Regarding miracles and revelation I’m not certain that all Deists do reject them. Deism is more of a discussion group then a religion. We accept the possibility of God yet believe that the evidence shows one who does not intervene in the affairs of man. Miracles and revelation are not only a form of interfering, they are rather discriminatory. Only a scant few ever receive them under the Christian model.

Thanks for listening.
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Herein lies another analytical rub. Why would such a God create us and then walk away?

If it’s logic you demand, how logical is that? :confused:
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Herein lies another analytical rub. Why would such a God create us and then walk away?

If it’s logic you demand, how logical is that? :confused:
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He didn’t create us. He began the early universe and has been observing since. We are way down the road from the point of God’s involvement. In other words…we evolved.
 
Everybody wants a miracle, they want it now, they want it obvious, and they want it to happen to them on any whim. This reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode where a little kid controls all the adults because he can make anything he wants to, happen on his whim.

All the pharisees and Sadducees wanted Jesus to perform miracles for them too on whatever whim they desired to prove that Jesus was who He claimed to be. God is no more a puppet to us than we are to Him. He does not grant everyone’s miracle wishes. He is not your fairy godmother. Often times the things we ask for are not in our best interest.

Besides if miracles were constantly being performed, they would no longer impress anyone. It would be just another request being answered to satisfy someone lack of faith without them.

I think God, lets the world be driven by natures normal rules the vast majority of the time, unless He sees fit to step in on someone’s request or when He feels it is necessary.

Quite obviously, only a small number of special folks have Gods attention on a more regular basis. Those are the folks with great faith, the great miracle workers of various times. They are usually folks called by God for a special purpose. The last of these was probably Blessed/Saint Padre Pio. For folks to be miffed or aggitated because God, did not choose you to be a great miracle worker or to be a witness to a great miracle worker, is quite amusing. It’s like watching a pouting child scream at a parent, show me a great miracle or I will not believe.
 
oldcelt said:
He didn’t create us. He began the early universe and has been observing since. We are way down the road from the point of God’s involvement. In other words…we evolved.
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So you are saying he created the early universe but had no idea we would evolve? :confused:

How logical is that? Does your God have a mind, or is it just a mindless force?
 
Charlemagne_III said:
So you are saying he created the early universe but had no idea we would evolve? :confused:
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The computer scientist in me can see something like this occurring. It’s not uncommon in CS to create a simulated fictional environment and watch things happen in it (John Conway’s “Game of Life” from 1970 is the earliest one of which I know). Some times it may be a goal oriented simulation. Some times it’s not. In either case some times there are developments that may or may not be intentional and may or may not have to do with the end goal (if any) that was in mind. Some of the deistic god-concepts come across to me as a parallel of such a simulation on a larger scale.
 
oldcelt said:
He didn’t create us. He began the early universe and has been observing since. We are way down the road from the point of God’s involvement. In other words…we evolved.
Click to expand...
hhmmm…This seems to indicate a god that is not all knowing…

For myself I think think of the question of intervention / non-intervention a bit differently than most. Where the deist example I’ve often heard is the watch maker who winds the watch then does nothing…prefer a “cook” who puts together the proper elements but only in their proper time and in proper proportion - with time to simmer in between.
Maybe not the best analogy but at least an idea of something in between a totally uninvolved and a completely involved God.

Just a thought.

Peace
James
 
Charlemagne_III said:
So you are saying he created the early universe but had no idea we would evolve? :confused:

How logical is that? Does your God have a mind, or is it just a mindless force?
Click to expand...
Why would it be illogical? We are talking about billions of years and an almost infinite number of possibilities. He may be just as interested about sand beetles that developed on Zendra as He is in us, or he may not care in the least.
 
JRKH said:
hhmmm…This seems to indicate a god that is not all knowing…

For myself I think think of the question of intervention / non-intervention a bit differently than most. Where the deist example I’ve often heard is the watch maker who winds the watch then does nothing…prefer a “cook” who puts together the proper elements but only in their proper time and in proper proportion - with time to simmer in between.
Maybe not the best analogy but at least an idea of something in between a totally uninvolved and a completely involved God.

Just a thought.

Peace
James
Click to expand...
James,

No, I don’t see him as all knowing. For me that can lead down a very tricky road regarding free will and a plethora of other subjects. Your Deist God has some involvement…mine has absolutely none.

The other omnis are just as tricky for me.

John
 
ThinkingSapien said:
The computer scientist in me can see something like this occurring. It’s not uncommon in CS to create a simulated fictional environment and watch things happen in it (John Conway’s “Game of Life” from 1970 is the earliest one of which I know). Some times it may be a goal oriented simulation. Some times it’s not. In either case some times there are developments that may or may not be intentional and may or may not have to do with the end goal (if any) that was in mind. Some of the deistic god-concepts come across to me as a parallel of such a simulation on a larger scale.
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An interesting comparison, Thanks for sharing.
 
oldcelt said:
Why would it be illogical? We are talking about billions of years and an almost infinite number of possibilities. He may be just as interested about sand beetles that developed on Zendra as He is in us, or he may not care in the least.
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Maybe you are too impressed by those billions of years? Since He exists outside of time, the Creator who exists through all eternity would not likely be so impressed.

But you haven’t answered my question.

Why go to the bother of creating a vast universe, then turn your back on it?

This defies logic and sugests a sloppy mind rather than an omniscient intellect that acts with a purpose.
 
ThinkingSapien said:
The computer scientist in me can see something like this occurring. It’s not uncommon in CS to create a simulated fictional environment and watch things happen in it (John Conway’s “Game of Life” from 1970 is the earliest one of which I know). Some times it may be a goal oriented simulation. Some times it’s not. In either case some times there are developments that may or may not be intentional and may or may not have to do with the end goal (if any) that was in mind. Some of the deistic god-concepts come across to me as a parallel of such a simulation on a larger scale.
Click to expand...
I daresay John Conway (who was not omniscient) created the “Game of Life” for a purpose.

For what purpose did the Deist God (who is omniscient) create the “Game of Universe”?
 
Charlemagne_III said:
I daresay John Conway (who was not omniscient) created the “Game of Life” for a purpose.
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In part as a demonstration of how from a relatively simple set of rules there are many complex patterns that can emerge. The idea was published in a Scientific journal in 1970 and has been a subject of study since then. It has no practical applications though. It’s just a zero player game that those in the fields of math and computer science find interesting.
Charlemagne_III said:
For what purpose did the Deist God (who is omniscient) create the “Game of Universe”?
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I don’t think I could know this unless he/she/it were to have an interaction with me that I could understand. So that’s a question that could only produce conjecture at best, as deists concepts of got tend to be non-interactive and there’s not a lot of information available on the motivations or psychology of deist god-concepts.
 
adawgj said:
Maybe you could help me out. What exactly do you believe? I’m a bit confused because your profile says deist/atheist so I’m guessing you aren’t religious, but believe in something greater than humanity, but is not God the way religious view God.
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I don’t deny the possibility of the existence of higher beings or being, are you familiar with Russel’s teapot? You cannot ask a disbeliever to disprove the physical existence of any higher being whatever imaginable this being could be, the only way to disprove it is by disproving the religious personal god(s) which were the result of a historical-social evolution of specific civilizations and where the stories of their books contradict with each others, with common sense, reality, science and ethics.
 
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