Why do you believe in Sola Scriptura?

[SyCarl]

Augustine indicates that Scripture is of highest authority and must be yielded to in all matters.

This Mediator, having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles,** has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority**, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves.

Augustine (City of God, Book XI, Chapter 3)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XI.3.html

Better far that I should read with certainty and persuasion of its truth the Holy Scripture, placed on the highest (even the heavenly) pinnacle of authority, and should, without questioning the trustworthiness of its statements, learn from it that men have been either commended, or corrected, or condemned, than that, through fear of believing that by men, who, though of most praiseworthy excellence, were no more than men, actions deserving rebuke might sometimes be done, I should admit suspicions affecting the trustworthiness of the whole “oracles of God.”

Augustine (Letter LXXXII)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf101.vii.1.LXXXII.html

Whereas, therefore, in every question, which relates to life and conduct, not only teaching, but exhortation also is necessary; in order that by teaching we may know what is to be done, and by exhortation may be incited not to think it irksome to do what we already know is to be done; what more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For holy Scripture setteth a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behoveth to be wise;” but be wise, as himself saith, “unto soberness, according as unto each God hath allotted the measure of faith.” Be it not therefore for me to teach you any other thing, save to expound to you the words of the Teacher, and to treat of them as the Lord shall have given to me.

Augustine (On the Good of Widowhood, Section 2)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.v.iv.iii.html

He indicates that all matters concerning faith and life can be found in Scripture (material sufficiency) and are plainly laid down (formal sufficiency).

In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life, to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.

Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, Book 2, Chapter 9, Paragraph 14)
newadvent.org/fathers/12022.htm

If something is not found in Scripture it is not necessary for belief. Not that it can’t be believed but it is not required.

But if it is supported by the evident authority of the divine Scriptures, namely those which in the Church are called canonical, it must be believed without reservation.** In regard to other witnesses of evidence which are offered as guarantees of belief, you may believe or not, according as you estimate that they either have or have not the weight necessary to produce belief**

Augustine (Letter 147, Fathers of the Church volume 20))
books.google.ca/books?isbn=0813215609

And if any comparisons shall have been made for thee, if thou hast found them in the Scriptures, believe: if thou shalt not have found them spoken of except by report, do not very much believe them. The thing itself perchance is so, perchance is not so. Do thou profit by it, let that comparison avail for thy salvation.

Augustine (Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXVII)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXVII.html

Purgatory is something that can be believed or not.

And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life.** It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful,** whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it

.
Augustine (The Enchiridion Chapter 69)
newadvent.org/fathers/1302.htm

(to be continued)

 

[SyCarl]

John Chrysostom indicates that we can learn all things from the Scripture.

Now these things we say superficially, as to men not knowing the Scriptures. But our discourses would be unnecessary if you would believe and take heed to the divine word, for that would teach you all things.

John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Timothy, Homily 1)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.v.iii.ii.html

All the necessary things are in Scripture (material sufficiency) and are clear and open or plain. (formal sufficiency)

What do I come in for, you say, if I do not hear some one discoursing? This is the ruin and destruction of all. For what need of a person to discourse? This necessity arises from our sloth. Wherefore any necessity for a homily? All things are clear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain.

John Chrysostom, (Homilies on Second Thessalonians, 3, v. 5)
newadvent.org/fathers/23053.htm

An exposition on 2 Timothy 3:16. If we would know anything we can learn it from Scripture. We have Scripture instead of the Apostle Paul.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” All what Scripture? all that sacred writing, he means, of which I was speaking. This is said of what he was discoursing of; about which he said, “From a child you have known the holy Scriptures.” All such, then, “is given by inspiration of God”; therefore, he means, do not doubt; and it is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

“For doctrine.” For thence we shall know, whether we ought to learn or to be ignorant of anything. And thence we may disprove what is false, thence we may be corrected and brought to a right mind, may be comforted and consoled, and if anything is deficient, we may have it added to us.

“That the man of God may be perfect.” For this is the exhortation of the Scripture given, that the man of God may be rendered perfect by it; without this therefore he cannot be perfect. You have the Scriptures, he says, in place of me. If you would learn anything, you may learn it from them. And if he thus wrote to Timothy, who was filled with the Spirit, how much more to us!
“Thoroughly furnished unto all good works”; not merely taking part in them, he means, but “thoroughly furnished.”

John Chrysostom (Homilies on Second Timothy, 9, 3:16-17)
newadvent.org/fathers/230709.htm

Scripture is the square and rule for all things.

Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer this to figures and calculation; but in calculating upon facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things; which may we all obtain, through the grace and love towards men of our Lord Jesus Christ, with Whom, to the Father and the Holy Spirit, be glory, might, and honor, now and ever, and world without end. Amen.

John Chrysostom (Homilies on 2 Corinthians, Homily 13)
newadvent.org/fathers/220213.htm

Gregory of Nyssa indicates Scriptures are the rule and measure of every tenet.

But while the latter proceeded, on the subject of the soul, as far in the direction of supposed consequences as the thinker pleased, we are not entitled to such licence, I mean that of affirming what we please;** we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings**.

Gregory of Nyssa (On the Soul and the Resurrection)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf205.x.iii.ii.html

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Carl,

You misunderstand the position of the Catholic Church in regards with Scriptures and how much the Church venerates the Scriptures, and I am really glad you are citing all those great Catholic men.

But It is Not Scripture Alone.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74
*134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, “because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ” (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2,8L 176,642: cf. ibid. 2,9L 176,642-643).
*Please read the whole Chapter, it is just beautiful.

I’ll leave you with St. Peter:

[bibledrb]2 Peter 3:16[/bibledrb]

***All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ.

---

 

[SyCarl]

Carl,

You misunderstand the position of the Catholic Church in regards with Scriptures and how much the Church venerates the Scriptures, and I am really glad you are citing all those great Catholic men.

But It is Not Scripture Alone.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74
134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, “because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ” (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2,8L 176,642: cf. ibid. 2,9L 176,642-643).
Please read the whole Chapter, it is just beautiful.

I’ll leave you with St. Peter:

[bibledrb]2 Peter 3:16[/bibledrb]

***All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ.

---

I know what Peter wrote. He says some things are hard to understand, not all things. I am saying that the men I quote indicate the formal sufficiency of Scripture, that everything necessary is clear and that doctrine must be subject to Scripture. Does Scripture contain everything that is true? Of course not, but that is not what Sola Scriptura says. The topic of the thread is why we believe Sola Scriptura and that is what I am answering.

Perhaps there are so many divisions because we are requiring belief in more than is necessary.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Perhaps there are so many divisions because we are requiring belief in more than is necessary.

That’s right. Because each person/denomination is an authority on their own. That’s the fruit of Sola Scriptura.

There is one Church - we are here waiting with arms wide open.

Come on Home.

 

[arjanssen]

That’s right. Because each person/denomination is an authority on their own. That’s the fruit of Sola Scriptura.

There is one Church - we are here waiting with arms wide open.

Come on Home.

Jose

That’s one of the weakes arguments of the Catholic church on SS. ‘Because the church sets what is true, every Catholic believes the same things?’ Ask 10 Catholics and you’ll get 10 different answers on differing doctrinal issues. i.e. same as protestants.

Grace

Andy

 

[arjanssen]

If the Catholic Church believes in tradition as being equal to scripture, why did it not say so until the Council of Trent? This should be telling… The reformation was leading people away from the Church do to teachings contrary to scripture - so what does the Church do? State that the Church is equal to scripture.

Grace

Andy

 

[Isaiah45_9]

All in context. It’s an invitation not an argument.

If your argument is to ask 10 Catholics… Then your reply is as weak as mine IF mine was an argument.

The Catholic is to adhere to the teachings of the Church. If the Catholic is not, they don’t represent the teaching of the Church. They are not their own denomination and their own authority. Whereas in Protestantism, when there is a difference of opinion a new denomination is more likely to pop up. And each claiming their own authority, extremely different from differing Catholic opinions.

 

[dronald]

All in context. It’s an invitation not an argument.

If your argument is to ask 10 Catholics… Then your reply is as weak as mine IF mine was an argument.

The Catholic is to adhere to the teachings of the Church. If the Catholic is not, they don’t represent the teaching of the Church. They are not their own denomination and their own authority. Whereas in Protestantism, when there is a difference of opinion a new denomination is more likely to pop up. And each claiming their own authority, extremely different from differing Catholic opinions.

I don’t know if he copy and pasted from somewhere or did all the work on his own; but you owe him the credit of commenting on all the passages from the ECF’s. They are incredibly convincing and I wouldn’t move to the “well Protestants have lots of denominations now” argument, ignoring everything that was just posted.

 

[arjanssen]

That’s right. Because each person/denomination is an authority on their own. That’s the fruit of Sola Scriptura.

There is one Church - we are here waiting with arms wide open.

Come on Home.

Jose

You totally misunderstand Sola Scritura. Each person/denomination is not an authority on their own - the Word of God is!

When I think of this debate, the Jewish leaders always come to mind. They definitely were God’s chosen people and the leaders of the Jewish nation - yet they were wrong! And the Word of God was right…

Mark 12:24

I’m not saying tradition doesn’t have it’s place, but scripture defends itself and the Word of God continually speaks to it’s authority, not that of the church. (Acts 17:1-3; 10-13; Psalm 19:7-11, Psalm 119, 2 Tim 3:15-17, Col 3:16, 1 John 2:27)

Titus 1:9 “He must hold firm to the trustworthy Word as taught…”
What were they teaching? The WORD! They weren’t teaching ‘other’ things which only the church knows!

Grace

Andy

 

[eddie_too]

only through the RCC are the contents of sacred scripture even known.

no RCC, no sacred scripture.

 

[arjanssen]

only through the RCC are the contents of sacred scripture even known.

no RCC, no sacred scripture.

Really?! And where do you get this from?

The books of the New Testament were already accepted by the churches as scripture far prior to the final canon was accepted.

Acts 17:11 - the Berean’s search the scripture to see if Paul is telling the truth. Why should they! Paul’s an apostle! It’s because Paul (in himself) is nothing. Because God ‘breathed out’ His Word through Paul, doesn’t mean anything Paul decides is as important as scripture! Same is true for the church. Even if the church ‘decided’ what the books of the bible were (and were led by God to do this), it’s a big leap to say the church now has authority over scripture!

Moses definitely had authority over the Jews, yet God didn’t even let him enter the holy land, because he went against God! We humans are sinners - even the Catholic Church leaders. We cannot be on equal footing as God. God’s Word stands alone…

Grace

Andy

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I don’t know if he copy and pasted from somewhere or did all the work on his own; but you owe him the credit of commenting on all the passages from the ECF’s. They are incredibly convincing and I wouldn’t move to the “well Protestants have lots of denominations now” argument, ignoring everything that was just posted.

Dronald,

If you read my post #323, you will see:

**

I am really glad you are citing all those great Catholic men.

**



I also quoted and linked from the CCC, in order to show how much the Church venerates Scriptures.

Just not alone.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The Catholic Church has trusted, trusts and will forever trust the Word of God. Did you get to read the links I gave about the Catechism?

Have you read all those Catholic men throughout the centuries and their appeal to Scriptures?

Did you see all the different examples of beliefs in post #460 on the “How do protestants explain history” thread?

That is the fruit of Sola Scriptura: Dissension.

In principle it is beautiful and noble - in practice its disorder and anarchy. It takes away the Great Commission and the authority of the Church.

It’s not just an opinion, I lived through SS for about 10 years, chuch hopping and through many different denominations. Talked to several Pastors and Professors from many different denominations. It is a fact.

I tried as hard as I could to adopt the principle. It does not work.

Christ have mercy on us.

 

[dronald]

Dronald,

If you read my post #323, you will see:

---

I also quoted and linked from the CCC, in order to show how much the Church venerates Scriptures.

Just not alone.

But I don’t believe anyone is proclaiming Scripture “alone” though.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

But I don’t believe anyone is proclaiming Scripture “alone” though.

That is what Sola means.

And then some claim Sola is not really Alone but the Final Norm and the highest authority. That is Prima Scriptura. And it’s still defective on the same practice

 

[eddie_too]

to me, saying sacred scripture is greater than the Church is like saying the mona lisa is greater than leonardo.

 

[dronald]

That is what Sola means.

And then some claim Sola is not really Alone but the Final Norm and the highest authority. That is Prima Scriptura. And it’s still defective on the same practice

Based on every thread I’ve ever read and any book I’ve read, they claim Scripture as the highest authority. I really don’t care what Latin label we give it, it certainly makes sense that the Apostles trump anything that comes later.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Based on every thread I’ve ever read and any book I’ve read, they claim Scripture as the highest authority. I really don’t care what Latin label we give it,

Then it should be Summa Scriptura.

My goodness, I just invented a doctrine

You should care about the meaning of things. Would you like to have a banker that thinks in those same terms? Hmmm, dronald - I’m thinking about changing what I really meant about giving an 8% interest rate. I really meant 5%, I know I said 8 but that’s not really what I meant. In fact, that number is really a hermeneutical principle, each bank reserves the right to interpret it.

I don’t think you’d like that much, would you?

it certainly makes sense that the Apostles trump anything that comes later.

And it comes full circle… According to whom?

 

[dronald]

Then it should be Summa Scriptura.

My goodness, I just invented a doctrine

You should care about the meaning of things. Would you like to have a banker that thinks in those same terms? Hmmm, dronald - I’m thinking about changing what I really meant about giving an 8% interest rate. I really meant 5%, I know I said 8 but that’s not really what I meant. In fact, that number is really a hermeneutical principle, each bank reserves the right to interpret it.

I don’t think you’d like that much, would you?

And it comes full circle… According to whom?

Why in the world wouldn’t you go for the 5%! I would totally take that deal.