Why do you believe what you believe?

[GaryTaylor]

To be honest, I don’t think I could tell you why I believe. Not in a coherent manner anyway. It’s like asking “Why do you love your spouse”. One can provide reasons, but can never really answer the question of “why”.

I think too that this “why” in regards to the Lords love, is deeply and beautifully elaborated on in the Catholic Church. Its not hard to see the Lords gift blessed in the teaching authority. Truly you find yourself being taught in a very profound way at some point.

 

[rossum]

In another thread, an interesting question was posed.

“Why do you believe what you believe?”

Why am I a Buddhist? The short answer is that Buddhism works.

The long answer is the same but takes more words. I was brought up as a Christian. When I hit my teens I dropped religion and switched to atheism. This was mainly because I objected to the rather too common, “anyone who does not agree exactly with us is damned for eternity,” attitude I found. After a few years I moved away from atheism, I felt that while it did avoid many of the problems with Christianity it was not itself a solution. I looked at different religions to find something that would work for me. None of the Abrahamic religions attracted me – as a hangover from my atheism I still had a problem with the concepts of God and soul. Initially I was interested in Hinduism: the background of Indian religion provides a very different world view: less exclusive – everyone achieves liberation eventually, the concept of karma and a much more relaxed attitude to other religions. Of the Hindu texts the Bhagavad Gita and Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras were the ones that attracted me most. In particular there is hardly any mention of gods in the Yoga Sutras. This seemed to be an interesting direction to explore.

Reading round Hinduism I inevitably came across Jainism and Buddhism. Jaininsm has souls but no gods, or at least no important gods. Buddhism has no souls and its attitude to gods was very casual – like any other living being they need to become enlightened. A mere god is far inferior to a Bodhisattva, let alone to a fully enlightened Buddha. Buddhism seemed to have the elements I was looking for: non-exclusivity, no soul, morality and while it did have gods, they were unimportant and could easily be ignored. So I tried Buddhism. I studied more on it, went to groups and to meditation classes and found that everything fitted together well and it suited the way I wanted to go.

A frequently quoted Buddhist text is the Kalama sutta which says that if we are to accept something then we have to try it first to check that it is correct:

[The Buddha said:] “Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are good; these things are not blameable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.”

This advice applies to the Buddha’s own words just as much as to anything else. I followed the Buddha’s advice. I tried Buddhism, found that it worked and I have followed it ever since.

There is even some scientific evidence that Buddhism works: see Buddhists ‘really are happier’.

Buddhism is a very practical religion. It is a sustained attempt to alleviate the suffering of a less than perfect world. Generally it succeeds. Buddhism works.

rossum

 

[Vouthon]

I am a Catholic firstly because the dogmatic teachings, moral theology, mystical traditions, saintly figures and rituals of the Faith stir my soul and make sense to me on a deep level. To deny the Faith would be for me a denial of what my conscience leads me to regard as the truth. Secondly, I have experienced the fruits of the sacraments and contemplative prayer in my life. Catholicism has a profound intellectual heritage based upon the church fathers, medieval philosophers, scholastics and countless other theological greats. The Church satisfies both my intellectual cravings and my spiritual ones. She is my mother, my guide for living. I have never faced a moral dilemma or crisis point yet that has not found some level of rectification or at least healing through the doctrines of the Faith and my personal prayer life. The CC has the perfect balance of strong ethical precepts, philosophical and rational thought, doctrinal certainties, social teaching and forceful critiques of abuses within society. It has unshakeable dogmas wielded to a capacity to develop in understanding of the deposit of faith as time progresses, meaning that the Faith is never fossilized yet unchanging, “O beauty ever ancient, ever new”. Catholicism is both communal - heavily centred on corporate participation in the Divine Liturgy - and intensely individualistic, in that every Catholic has his/her own private devotions ie might seek the intercession of a different patron saint. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI summed this aspect of the Catholic Faith up for me when he stated:

"…**Interviewer: **

How many ways are there to God?

**Pope Benedict XVI: **

As many ways as there are people. For even within the same faith each man’s way is an entirely personal one. In that respect there is ultimately one way, and everyone who is on the way to God is therefore in some sense also on the way to Jesus Christ. But this does not mean that all ways are identical in terms of consciousness and will but on the contrary, the one way is so big that it becomes a personal way for each man…"

- Pope Benedict XVI, Salt of the Earth, 1997 (when he was Cardinal Ratzinger Head of Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith)

(continued…)

 

[Vouthon]

The Catholic Church has an embarrassment of riches when it comes to different styles of worship, rites, emphases and so on. Yet for all this diversity in style, in substance the Faith is One. We have hundreds of different “itineraries” divided up among the different schools of spirituality (just like the Catholic Church is actually a communion of 27 or more individual rites each with their own distinct liturgies, practices and spiritualities): the Franciscan way, the Augustinian Way, the Alexandrine Way, the Victorine Way, the Cistercian Way, the Dominican Way, the Flemish School, the French School of Abstract mysticism, Hesychasm, the “Threefold Way” of Dionysius, William of St Thierry and Saint Bonaventure which is called “purgative, illuminative and unitive” and is the most basic system utilized in some manner by all the schools, the “Four Degrees of Love” by Richard of St Victor (who died in 1173), the Seven Stages of Marguerite Porete, the Seven Mansions of Saint Teresa, the “Path of Mount Carmel the Perfect Spirit” of Saint John of the Cross and so on.

As Cardinal Cusa said some centuries ago:

“…Diversity in creation and cultures is the language of God; the radical unity of the opposites. In God absolute unity is absolute multiplicity. It is you O God who is being sought in various religions in various ways and named with various names. For you remain as you are to all incomprehensible and inexpressible. When you will graciously grant it then sword, jealous hatred and evil will cease and all will come to know that there is but one religion in the variety of religious rites…”

***- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401-1464), Catholic mystic & Renaissance thinker ***

And Venerable Pope Pius in more recent times:

“…What a wonderful vision, which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God…This divine law of solidarity and charity assures that all men are truly brothers, without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures and societies. In the light of this unity of all mankind, which exists in law and in fact, individuals do not feel themselves isolated units, like grains of sand, but united by the very force of their nature and by their internal destiny, into an organic, harmonious mutual relationship which varies with the changing of times…The nations, despite a difference of development due to diverse conditions of life and of culture, are not destined to break the unity of the human race, but rather to enrich and embellish it by the sharing of their own peculiar gifts and by that reciprocal interchange of goods…”

***- Venerable Pope Pius XII,Summi Pontificatus (On the Unity of the Human Race) October 12, 1939 ***

As the scholar of Catholic mysticism Bernard McGinn explains:

“…The journey motif, the conception of life as a passage through a series of stages on the way to an intended goal, is deeply rooted in the human mind…It is scarcely surprising that many mystics, both in Catholicism and in other religious traditions, have used itineraries to describe what they experienced and what they wish to hand on to their followers. Each person’s journey to God, of course, is unique, even if it takes place within the context of the beliefs and rituals of a religious community…These itineraries are [therefore] intended to be guidebooks to help people, usually with the advice of a spiritual director…Many Catholic mystical writers have left us descriptions of stages on the path to God in their writings, always with the understanding that there are many such roads, and that one type of itinerary does not rule out others…”

- Bernard McGinn, Catholic scholar

Or as the Anglican Douglas Jacobson explained in his book, “The World’s Christians” about Catholicism:

“…Enormous diversity exists within Catholicism, including many different schools and sub-schools of spirituality. Rather than forcing members to choose between one style of faith or another, Catholicism has typically opted to be a tradition of 'both/‘and’. Whatever is seen as having spiritual merit and value can be incorporated into Catholicism, even when the opposite emphases are also present within the tradition…Catholicism’s both/and stance has also allowed it to adopt and adapt various ideas and practices from other Christian traditions…This same commitment to catholicity has allowed Catholicism to welcome and appreciate spiritual insights and practices of many non-Christian religions and cultures…”

 

[Kliska]

“Why do you believe what you believe?”

There was a man called Jesus Who also claimed to be God. He taught perfectly, and walked perfectly. He said He’d prove that He is God by a sign above and beyond all the miracles He performed; He’s be dead, buried, and raise again on the 3rd day, and then He did it. Now, this is something that I believe has actual objective evidence to back it up. People can study it and draw their own conclusions. By Him raising from the dead He lends credibility to all else He taught, and what is recorded in scripture.

The Christian worldview is the worldview that lines up with the truth of what we can observe around us; man’s fallen nature, the way the world works, the fact that there is a universe at all and that it had a beginning, etc… And truth lines up with the Christian worldview. In short, I believe because of both objective and subjective evidences. Have I had personal experiences? Sure. But they do precious little to prove Jesus to others.

How do people rationalise their beliefs?

It’s only a rationalization if it doesn’t line up with the facts. So, some people rationalize, others do not. For the ones that do, the rationalizations are as varied as the people.

What is the difference between true faith and blind faith?

Blind faith is something that is held to with no evidences, reason, or even in the face of contradiction. Faith, which is trusting with great confidence, is held to because of evidence.

Finally, what is the difference between belief and superstition?

Belief and faith are actually two different words, though in English they get muddled. Belief is an intellectual assent or the acknowledgment that something exists, for example. Faith is trust. Superstition can be a form of faith, for example a baseball player may have faith/trust that if he doesn’t wash his socks, he’ll win the game. Superstitions tend to be seen negatively in that it can lead to delusion or having faith in something that is irrational.

I would be very interested to hear peoples stories and rationalizations of their experiences.

I think you and I have a different take on what a “rationalization” is. Here’s how I define rationalizations/rationalizing: Rationalization is an attempt to make something rational or reasonable that really isn’t. Rationalizing is actually a Psychological Defense Mechanism where the person actually believes their own attempts at rationalizing, but that isn’t the objective or real explanation at all.

 

[Skadi]

In another thread, an interesting question was posed.

“Why do you believe what you believe?”

Some have had experiences that they attribute to God, miracles per se. How do we know that these miracles/experiences are not simple coincidences? And if they are an intervention of some form of Divine Providence, what are the factors which contribute towards believing in Christ, Moses, Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah?

How do people rationalise their beliefs?

What is the difference between true faith and blind faith?

Finally, what is the difference between belief and superstition?

I would be very interested to hear peoples stories and rationalizations of their experiences.

God bless you all!

.

I went on a long journey of faith that took me a long way, involved alot of reading, exploring, and deep thought. But eventually I came to know and accept the gods of my ancestors, and to honor them with the deeds of my life. In my younger days when i was Wiccan and still practiced trance work I came to know the gods, saw them myself. Sense, i feel their presence at times of need, when they watch me closely to see how I will react, how I meet life’s next test.

True faith is something you still believe with all your heart after deeply examining it. where as blind faith is belief in something simply because one believes in it. A person who is raised fanatically religious, and never once thinks deeper or looks at other ways of thinking is of blind faith. And personally I dont think my gods want me to have that.

 

[meme1961]

In another thread, an interesting question was posed.

“Why do you believe what you believe?”

How do people rationalise their beliefs?

What is the difference between true faith and blind faith?

Finally, what is the difference between belief and superstition?

For me, it isn’t just belief. I’m Catholic because Catholicism is a religion of both faith and reason, in proper relationship and proportion.

“Rationalize” has two mutually exclusive meanings. If you are asking: “Did you come to your religion in whole or part as an act of reason?”, then my answer would be, “Yes.”

The difference between “true faith” and “blind faith” is that the first is based in epistemology, while the second is just a single word for the phrase: “self-soothing self-delusion.”

Belief and superstition . . . two slippery words. In some contexts, the words “belief” and “faith” are synonyms. In other contexts, faith is a gift from God, but belief is faith and reason tied into a single statement. If it helps, the Church specifically and explicitly denies the validity of Fideism, so for me, superstition is a word that is synonymous with “blind faith”, and/or “blind dogmatism”, and is fundamentally fideistic in nature.

This may help: “Knowledge is a justified, true belief.” Justification is a result of an act of reason, one that asserts the truth of a proposition, but all such acts are workings from a foundation of faith. Faith, in this context, being very similar to “a mathematical axiom.”

In short, human beings are incapable of perfect reason (as perfect reason would require perfect knowledge, among other things), and thus we must be creatures of both faith and reason. To lean solely on one or the other is to make a very fundamental mistake, one that will prevent us from discovering the truth.

But, if you were asking a very concrete question, expecting a very concrete answer, then : “I believe and follow the one religion in the world that has, as part of its history and basis, a mass divine revelation.”

To my knowledge, that is unique. It also doesn’t hurt that I tried, quite seriously and with diligence, to falsify Catholicism, and failed.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

My faith in the Roman Catholic Church is something that you would have to experience to fully understand. While some of it can be explained, the real “meat” of it transcends mere discussion.

It’s very much like the Baha’i faith. Many have no idea what you really believe because they have not taken the time to be in your shoes and experience it as you do. Can they truly fathom why you appreciate it or hold fast to it the way you do? How best is your faith understood? From the outside or from where you stand?

Does a woman fully understand what it is like to be a man? Can a man grasp the truth of womanhood from a discussion on a forum such as this one?

It is the same with being a Catholic. There is no rationalization allowed. Superstition must be tossed aside. It is an experience you must undertake to come to an accurate understanding of. Otherwise you will never fully understand it.

While I did search through other faiths and even gave them a chance, God’s call only became clearer that my place was in the Catholic Church. The more I studied the more its teachings proved true, not only by examination but because of my heritage and the promises made by God to my people.

I am a Hebrew, of the tribe of Judah. My ancestors were among the first Christians in Jerusalem. Before Christ, my forefathers worshiped at the Temple of the God of Abraham. I am a Roman Catholic because my family believed in the testimony of my forefathers and of the apostles. We believe that the promises made to my father Abraham and to my people are fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth. Belief in the Messiah and his Church is first and foremost a very Jewish thing to do. Therefore I take it as my personal vocation, my calling, my part of fulfilling the covenant made between God and my people to obey and believe in the Messiah. I believe in Christ because my family believes He is who we waited for throughout the centuries. I am a Catholic because I am a Jew. I am bound by a covenant to believe and trust in the promises made by God to my father Abraham by blood.

Christ makes my fellow Catholics who are not Jews by birth my brothers and sisters and additional members of the family of Abraham by faith. They are bound by a new covenant to believe and trust in the same promises from the same God.

And thus we believe in God because He who promises is trustworthy. It is not by human reason or rationalization that we believe.

We believe because God is worth being trusted at his word. We believe because we are Catholics, and we are Catholics because we believe.

This is totally cool! Thanks.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I began to believe because of the holy spirit. I continue to believe because of the Holy spirit showing me just how true Christianity is, that Christ and his ressurection are not something I can doubt.

 

[Publisher]

I believe what I believe because the Cross is the only thing that has ever given me true peace. That’s why I am and remain a Christian.

This has captured the gist of my reasons.

 

[daler]

For me, it isn’t just belief.

In short, human beings are incapable of perfect reason (as perfect reason would require perfect knowledge, among other things), and thus we must be creatures of both faith and reason. To lean solely on one or the other is to make a very fundamental mistake, one that will prevent us from discovering the truth.

But, if you were asking a very concrete question, expecting a very concrete answer, then : “I believe and follow the one religion in the world that has, as part of its history and basis, a mass divine revelation.”

To my knowledge, that is unique. It also doesn’t hurt that I tried, quite seriously and with diligence, to falsify Catholicism, and failed.

. The “Knowledge of God” is something that comes to us outside ourselves. It is something that we must seek in order to find. When we are truly thirsty, we go looking for water. Thus, a spiritual thirst for the knowledge of God must develop.

. We had a couple of horses back on the farm. After a long ride, they were really thirsty, and probably could drink up to ten gallons of water. My own spiritual journey was long, and I sampled many wells, a few of them tainted.

. So we need to consciously search for the purest source of water we can find, sample it, then drink it in fully. The fact that God creates thirst in us logically leads to the necessity of our being able to satisfy that thirst. If we follow our thirst far enough, we will find pure water, but we have to want it, to seek it, and ultimately we will find it, or die of thirst and content ourselves without having found it.

.

 

[Shia_Muslim]

Most people believe in what their parents believe in. Objectively, I can’t say I would have come to my actual faith had I been born into another one. But I doubt I would have remained Christian had I been born so, because of the Trinity.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

In another thread, an interesting question was posed.

“Why do you believe what you believe?”

Some have had experiences that they attribute to God, miracles per se. How do we know that these miracles/experiences are not simple coincidences? And if they are an intervention of some form of Divine Providence, what are the factors which contribute towards believing in Christ, Moses, Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah?

How do people rationalise their beliefs?

What is the difference between true faith and blind faith?

Finally, what is the difference between belief and superstition?

I would be very interested to hear peoples stories and rationalizations of their experiences.

God bless you all!

.

Well it all started when I fell out of faith. I was born Catholic, baptized and confirmed, but I had
yet to experience being Born Again, be filled with new life. When I turned 18 about, I dabbled in
Paganism, became pessimistic towards Christianity, worshiped a Goddess,and it went on that
way for three-four years. Then, one day, I got a little curious about stuff, searched around on the
web, was reminded about the Holy Spirit, and like opening the door to a submarine deep under-
water, the Holy Spirit RUSHED in me, and I was Born Again.

I DIDN’T LIKE IT, IT WAS A VERY
UNPLEASANT EXPERIENCE! **lol **!

Now to answer the greater portion of the rest of your questions: THE BIBLE.
The Bible is the Word of God, not just written by one man but over time by
the many prophets of God, finally closed with Jesus Christ and the Apostle.

Not everyone, I don’t think, needs a Born Again experience, pleasant or unpleasant, to understand
the Scriptures, but I sure did, and it wasn’t to be warm and fuzzy. I was a pebble smashed by the
hammer, because the Holy Spirit filled me with the message, “YOU’RE GOING TO HELL, STOP!”
Everything became a lot more clear after settling back down into my religion of birth.

The key to understanding the True God is reading the
Bible, not the Qur’an, not the “Tablets” of Bahá’u’lláh,
neither the Avesta, nor the Bhagavad Gita, etc. It’s
THE BIBLE.

 

[daler]

Well it all started when I fell out of faith. I was born Catholic, baptized and confirmed, but I had
yet to experience being Born Again, be filled with new life. When I turned 18 about, I dabbled in
Paganism, became pessimistic towards Christianity, worshiped a Goddess,and it went on that
way for three-four years. Then, one day, I got a little curious about stuff, searched around on the
web, was reminded about the Holy Spirit, and like opening the door to a submarine deep under-
water, the Holy Spirit RUSHED in me, and I was Born Again.

I DIDN’T LIKE IT, IT WAS A VERY
UNPLEASANT EXPERIENCE! **lol **!

Now to answer the greater portion of the rest of your questions: THE BIBLE.
The Bible is the Word of God, not just written by one man but over time by
the many prophets of God, finally closed with Jesus Christ and the Apostle.

Not everyone, I don’t think, needs a Born Again experience, pleasant or unpleasant, to understand
the Scriptures, but I sure did, and it wasn’t to be warm and fuzzy. I was a pebble smashed by the
hammer, because the Holy Spirit filled me with the message, “YOU’RE GOING TO HELL, STOP!”
Everything became a lot more clear after settling back down into my religion of birth.

The key to understanding the True God is reading the
Bible, not the Qur’an, not the “Tablets” of Bahá’u’lláh,
neither the Avesta, nor the Bhagavad Gita, etc. It’s
THE BIBLE.

Judas,
. I appreciate the encounter with the Holy Spirit and your born again experience. It happened to me, too, and about 3 months later I was finally “ready” for the rest of the ride, blowing me where I needed to be, which was into the Baha’i Faith. I had dodged around it for about 10 years, never seriously looking at it, yet had gone through the search of other religions in my own need to “come to know” the truth with my own mind.

. Its a process. You’re happy where you’re at. You don’t hear God speaking to you through anyone but Jesus, and thats fine for you, but for a lot of us, watching the people and the planet go to hell in a hurry and just knowing there’s a tire out of balance gets our attention and we have to go further and have come to different conclusions.

. I had developed a prejudice of sorts against my Christian roots for awhile because of the obvious hypocrisy, all the racism, b…s… and Viet Nam, etc. I had to overcome that because the majority of Christians seemed to have dumbed down the religion to allow all of that hypocrisy, etc, in. I came to realize that Jesus was not about that termite-infested rot that had happened to His religion in that form, came back to the well, drank of the Holy Spirit, and followed it further up river, you might say, to its Source.

. That’s just my own take on it and I know that you disagree, but you can condemn Baha’u’llah and His followers all you like and probably, brother, you have no idea how you are sounding, but it is the same hate and prejudice, self-certainty, and blind imitation espoused a couple of thousand years ago to the original followers of Christ. What is it about the Light that is so overpowering that you can’t stand it when it emanates from a Lamp you don’t understand or accept?

. Its the same Holy Spirit coming from a new well, a very pure and abundant flow, meant only for the humble to receive it. It separates people, but also unites diverse members of all of humanity across all religious divides. It sifts and sorts wheat from chaff.

. No offense intended, so I hope none will be taken. Just telling the other side of the story. Been on both sides of it, my friend.

Peace and God bless

.

 

[Brendan_64]

In another thread, an interesting question was posed.

“Why do you believe what you believe?”

Because of the Holy Spirit.

Initially following a quite dramatic experience I was called home to the Church, and since that through ‘smaller’, frequent experiences in my day-today life. The Holy Spirit is with us all, you just have to stop and ‘listen’.

How do people rationalise their beliefs?

Do we have to?

What is the difference between true faith and blind faith?

Is there a difference?

 

[daler]

Because of the Holy Spirit.

Initially following a quite dramatic experience I was called home to the Church, and since that through ‘smaller’, frequent experiences in my day-today life. The Holy Spirit is with us all, you just have to stop and ‘listen’.

Do we have to?

Is there a difference?

Brendan,
. I would like to ask you a question, and in doing so wish to explore the movement of the Holy Spirit among peoples of other Faiths and beliefs, outside of Christianity, in which I was raised 60 years ago. In particular, association with Native Americans in traditional ceremonies, such as the Sweat Lodge of the Sioux and other tribes, where prayer is said in a most humble and often prolonged way, as sincere as it gets, in accord with their own ancient ways as taught by the Prophet to their people, I have experienced the cleansing power of the same Holy Spirit as I felt in the Christian church to which I belonged.
.
. It is the same breath of the Spirit which revives the soul, of this there is no doubt, though the approach may be not western or technically not the same, yet it achieves the same result, to which many will testify, including those who hold both traditional and Christian beliefs simultaneously. What I mean to say is that, when held in the old way, not in settings where corrupted medicine men cater to Yuppie crowds for money, but in the old ways which are unchanged for many, many centuries, the same result happens.

. That is my own experience, which I have confirmed on numerous occasions in the regions where I grew up on multiple reservations in South Dakota, as well as Canada. I don’t know to what degree you or others accept or discount other ways, but to me these are definite proof that the Holy Spirit may be accessed cross-culturally, and not confined to a single means or method to the exclusion of other religions, even non-Christian religious settings.

. As to “listening” for the Holy Spirit for guidance, as you describe, on a day to day basis, most definitely this is the way of many Native belief systems, though outward forms of practice or even rituals and ways may be expressed differently.

. "“There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God,” wrote Bahá’u’lláh. “These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.”

bahai.org/features/devotions/interfaith

. Any comments from you would be welcome, and thank you much.

. Daler

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Judas,
. I appreciate the encounter with the Holy Spirit and your born again experience. It happened to me, too, and about 3 months later I was finally “ready” for the rest of the ride, blowing me where I needed to be, which was into the Baha’i Faith. I had dodged around it for about 10 years, never seriously looking at it, yet had gone through the search of other religions in my own need to “come to know” the truth with my own mind.

. Its a process. You’re happy where you’re at. You don’t hear God speaking to you through anyone but Jesus, and thats fine for you, but for a lot of us, watching the people and the planet go to hell in a hurry and just knowing there’s a tire out of balance gets our attention and we have to go further and have come to different conclusions.

:ehh:
Well there’s the red flag I see in the Baha’i Faith, “but for a lot of us, watch-
ing the people and the planet go to hell in a hurry and just knowing there’s a
tire out of balance,” brings to mind 1 John 4:5.

I had developed a prejudice of sorts against my Christian roots for awhile because of the obvious hypocrisy, all the racism, b…s… and Viet Nam, etc. I had to overcome that because the majority of Christians seemed to have dumbed down the religion to allow all of that hypocrisy, etc, in. I came to realize that Jesus was not about that termite-infested rot that had happened to His religion in that form, came back to the well, drank of the Holy Spirit, and followed it further up river, you might say, to its Source.

What I hear you saying is that you left Jesus as God who is the Way the
Truth & the Light because of Christians, not what Christianity is supposed
to be. Unfortunately, many Christians, in one way or another, do fail in what
they are supposed to do (I sure know I do), but that’s no excuse. You can’t
just judge a religion by a few bad eggs, you have to read the Bible and see
if the doctrines conform to it. So there are hypocritical Christians? Marvel–
ous! Now go be a non-hypocritical Christian.

That’s just my own take on it and I know that you disagree, but you can condemn Baha’u’llah and His followers all you like and probably, brother, you have no idea how you are sounding, but it is the same hate and prejudice, self-certainty, and blind imitation espoused a couple of thousand years ago to the original followers of Christ.

I did briefly study the life of Baha’u’llah a bit a while back, incredible story, seeing
what he went through and all, but it’s just too bad that he isn’t a true prophet. I un-
derstand also that the Baha’i are supposed to be wonderful people, much like the
Mormons and Jehovah’s Witness, but that doesn’t make their religion true. Now I
am being tagged as more probably filled with “hate and prejudice”, well get this:
You are in a false religion following a false prophet, but I love you anyway, and I
want you OUT that burning building. Does that sound like “hate and prejudice”?
The self—certainty of which you speak is simply the trust I have in God and the
Church which he established almost two thousand years ago. I trust my Lord and
Savior, Jesus Christ, as well as the Holy Spirit. Imitation, yes, there is imitation,
but how is blind? Some will follow that same old tradition without knowing much
of what it’s all about, that could be “blind imitation”, but that isn’t what I do at least.

What is it about the Light that is so overpowering that you can’t stand it when it emanates from a Lamp you don’t understand or accept?

I understand that there’s One Creator, that his name is YHWH, and is the God of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I know he promised a Savior to the Jews in times of
old, and that Savior Messiah came in the person of Jesus Christ, who is revealed
to be God-Incarnate. I know what he did and why he did it, thus I praise him who
is my Creator and Savior who died in my place and rose that I may have eternal
life. I also get a pretty good idea that ever since Jesus came, there’ll be no more
prophets, no more revelations, God sent his Son, fulfilled his promise, now we’re
waiting for the end of it all and God’s final victory and Kingdom to Come.

Muhammad, Krishna, the Buddha, Zarathustra, etc do not fit in the God that is
described in the Bible, neither does the Bab or Baha’u’llah, nor Joseph Smith,
Emmanuel Swedenborg, John Newbrough, or any other false prophet.

Its the same Holy Spirit coming from a new well, a very pure and abundant flow, meant only for the humble to receive it. It separates people, but also unites diverse members of all of humanity across all religious divides. It sifts and sorts wheat from chaff.

Except that the Holy Spirit has given us a very easy way to test all other religions and
to know that they are false. You say it’s the same Holy Spirit, but that again brings to
mind 1 John 4:5, who doesn’t want unity in the world? I sure don’t, but I won’t be follow
those who are of the world into a false religion for the sake of unity. Unity in a true relig-
ion, sure, absolutely, but the Baha’i Faith? That’s false and that ought not to be under
which the world should unite. Under many of its principles, sure, feeding the poor, help-
ing the world, no problem, but not for Baha’u’llah.

 

[daler]

:ehh:
Well there’s the red flag I see in the Baha’i Faith, “but for a lot of us, watch-
ing the people and the planet go to hell in a hurry and just knowing there’s a
tire out of balance,” brings to mind 1 John 4:5.

What I hear you saying is that you left Jesus as God who is the Way the
Truth & the Light because of Christians, not what Christianity is supposed
to be…

Judas,
. To answer a portion of what you wrote, I would say that I went looking for Jesus at a time when He wasn’t even welcome in His own church, which is why a lot of people left their various churches. I’m not saying all or anything like that, but a generalization that what a lot of young people go through during their time of search. In other words, people “need” to go on their own search, and not just fall in line with whatever they have inherited. If they end up back where they started from, that is all well and good.

. A lot of people didn’t feel that tire out of balance, for everything remained hunky dorry for them, but some of us smelled decay and went looking for the true Christ spirit which we knew was supposed to be out there yet. I never left the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but saw that in a society where a black minister of the Gospel was not allowed in Jimmy Carter’s home town church, for but one of many examples, Jesus would not be welcome there either. Do you follow what I’m saying?

. If Christian Nazis were too busy burning Jews to love their neighbor, you tell me where the burning building is that you want to pull me out of, because I’ve already left. Thats how it was back on the Reservation I came from, where my mother taught school, where priests and nuns routinely beat and deprived the Lakota of food for merely speaking their own language. Please don’t take that the wrong way, for it is not intended to be a condemnation of the Church you follow, but just trying to speak plainly that in a racist society, a true Christian sometimes has the obligation to speak out and against whatever “Church” is in violation of God’s commandments.

. Dr Martin Luther King was assassinated for protesting what had become an acceptable level of racism in a “Christian” society which was more than happy with the status quo. The list could go on and on, from Civil War support of Jefferson Davis to you name it. If Jesus showed up with dark skin, how many “Christians” would identify with Him? How many would reject Him outright?

. So thats the skunk I smelled, and millions of others, back in our days of searching for the truth. Some of us dug deeper than others, and in doing so, discovered that God was bigger than our hometown church allowed Him to be. He taught Native Americans about His ways long before Columbus showed up and started killing them in the name of Christ.

. I don’t mean to go on a rant here, friend, because I know that you recognize the Holy Spirit in your life and the truth that Jesus brought, which I also recognize. Its kind of hard, you know, to chat on one of these threads, instead of in normal conversation over a cup of coffee. I mean you no disrespect, nor your Faith, nor your Church home. At the same time, I feel a need to stand up and say something about the validity of my own beliefs and that of others, whether it be our Muslim friend who appears from time to time, or a Buddhist, or any other non-Christian. God made “us”, too! And some of us hear His voice in Prophets you are condemning and denying.

. God bless you and your family, Judas, and I hope that your upcoming Christmas holidays are wonderful and joyful. Hallelujah!

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Judas,
. To answer a portion of what you wrote, I would say that I went looking for Jesus at a time when He wasn’t even welcome in His own church, which is why a lot of people left their various churches. I’m not saying all or anything like that, but a generalization that what a lot of young people go through during their time of search. In other words, people “need” to go on their own search, and not just fall in line with whatever they have inherited. If they end up back where they started from, that is all well and good.

So you left because people failed Christ so you joined them? It is indeed important for
people to search on their own. I, for example, am almost thankful that the Lord allowed
me time as a Pagan, for made my reconversion to Christianity even more remarkable.
Important to search, but if one finds the wrong thing, but are satisfied, not even know-
ing why it’s all wrong, it is the responsibility of believers to evangelize to said-searcher.

A lot of people didn’t feel that tire out of balance, for everything remained hunky dorry for them, but some of us smelled decay and went looking for the true Christ spirit which we knew was supposed to be out there yet. I never left the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but saw that in a society where a black minister of the Gospel was not allowed in Jimmy Carter’s home town church, for but one of many examples, Jesus would not be welcome there either. Do you follow what I’m saying?

I got that you believe that you never left the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but you are
just not correct. When one stops being Christian, he is not longer party to Christ, i.e.
a follower of the REAL Jesus Christ. Baha’i deny the Divinity of Jesus, the Doctrine of
the Trinity, that the Bible is the only valid Scripture, etc. Simply denying that Jesus is
God is enough to abandon the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

If Christian Nazis were too busy burning Jews to love their neighbor, you tell me where the burning building is that you want to pull me out of, because I’ve already left. Thats how it was back on the Reservation I came from, where my mother taught school, where priests and nuns routinely beat and deprived the Lakota of food for merely speaking their own language. Please don’t take that the wrong way, for it is not intended to be a condemnation of the Church you follow, but just trying to speak plainly that in a racist society, a true Christian sometimes has the obligation to speak out and against whatever “Church” is in violation of God’s commandments.

Well first, the Nazis weren’t Christians, they were a militant occult group who believed
in Arian Supermen who tried to bring back the pure Arian Race. Granted, they did have
Christian elements to their ways, but they weren’t Christian.
Ah, so you’re Native American? I have learned in college the things you speak of, and do
highly sympathize for that, but still no good excuse to abandon Christ. Those priests and
nuns were terrible people, who I would never choose to represent Christianity. Regrettably,
there will always be bad men in the Church, but that doesn’t make the Church bad.

Dr Martin Luther King was assassinated for protesting what had become an acceptable level of racism in a “Christian” society which was more than happy with the status quo. The list could go on and on, from Civil War support of Jefferson Davis to you name it. If Jesus showed up with dark skin, how many “Christians” would identify with Him? How many would reject Him outright?

They were not being Christian, they were being PEOPLE, bad people, who will have
to face God and be held accountable, but again this is not what Christianity is about.

So thats the skunk I smelled, and millions of others, back in our days of searching for the truth. Some of us dug deeper than others, and in doing so, discovered that God was bigger than our hometown church allowed Him to be. He taught Native Americans about His ways long before Columbus showed up and started killing them in the name of Christ.

I’m afraid I don’t understand most of that paragraph, but I’m familiar with what happened
after Columbus arrived. Terrible things, slavery, murder, and so forth. On Catholic priest
named Bartolome de las Casas who (if you understand) was helpless to stop the atroc-
ities as he saw, and wrote of all these things, condemning the Spaniards of that time.

We’re talking like the Indies, kinda
distant from the Lakota people, but
I figured it’s be worth sharing).
​

People are bad, even Christians are bad,
but Christianity is not. I believe the words
Fr. Bartolome used to describe why that
all happened was this:“They (Spaniards)
had forgotten God.”
(something to the effect of that)

It is sad that there are Judases in the world, even in the
Christian Churches, but were the Eleven other Apostles
(plus Judas’ replacement) so bad and wrong, even Jesus,
just because one from their own company was an evil man?

 

[daler]

So you left because people failed Christ so you joined them? It is indeed important for
people to search on their own. I, for example, am almost thankful that the Lord allowed
me time as a Pagan, for made my reconversion to Christianity even more remarkable.
Important to search, but if one finds the wrong thing, but are satisfied, not even know-
ing why it’s all wrong, it is the responsibility of believers to evangelize to said-searcher.

I got that you believe that you never left the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but you are
just not correct. When one stops being Christian, he is not longer party to Christ, i.e.
a follower of the REAL Jesus Christ. Baha’i deny the Divinity of Jesus, the Doctrine of
the Trinity, that the Bible is the only valid Scripture, etc. Simply denying that Jesus is
God is enough to abandon the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Ah, so you’re Native American?

Judas,
. I am appreciative of the cordial dialogue, but you are still reading something into my own path that isn’t there. Understand that some of my search was probably not unlike your own, delving into paganism or whatever. The point being not to condemn Christianity or anything of that sort, but when things are so out of kilter that you can’t reconcile such things as racism and hypocrisy engrained in the society you grew up in, many, many young people go searching for answers.

. So I see that as a process, what you or I went through, and many others, to discover, or rediscover, what it is that we truly as individuals could believe in and claim as our own. Sure, there was a time during that search where I not only questioned the Church, and had to make sense of the Bible and all that it taught, sorting out the truths buried in certain of the myths. All the old simple questions, like the 6000 year history, Jonah and the whale, and that sort of thing, as literal, etc.

. I’m not myself Native American, by the way. My ancestors were homesteaders and my dad was born in 1905, so I’m coming from a privileged side of the tracks, well fed, warm home, and all that, having at some point to begin asking questions. Many, many questions. In the midst of this, getting to know my Sioux friends, their beliefs, hitch-hiking around the country, Europe, parts of Africa, and all that. For me, it was not just a geographical search, but spiritual, trying to make sense of a messed up world, obviously in a state of collapse. The time frame of development would be the 60s and 70s, mostly, during which there were opportunities to read and get to know people of other parts of the world and study their belief systems.

. From reading your comments, you still make the judgement call that I quit following Christ, but you’re not following what I’m saying. Christ led me to Baha’u’llah, and after all that I had been through and seen of the world, the pieces of the jig-saw puzzle which were scattered on the ground all started coming together, and I was seeing a whole image of human history, social and religious, making complete sense from a new perspective.

. What happened to the “people” of Christianity was the same as what happened to the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc… There is a natural cycle where things start out in the stage of seed, shoot, tree, blossom, and fruit. It applies in the spiritual unfoldment of civilization as well. The seed of Abraham was fulfilled in the fruit season of Moses. The seed He passed on was fulfilled in the coming of Christ: “If ye knew Moses, ye would know Me, for He wrote of Me.”

. Only a few accepted Him as such in the beginning, you know. Now we have had 2000 years to examine the great spiritual growth of the tree of Christianity, as well as that of Moses, and Muhammad, for that matter. The Tree of Baha’u’llah’s Revelation has not reached full bloom, for it is only 150 years old, yet it encompasses the world, even as Christ’s Message did so over time.

. That you cannot see that this Tree is from God is not because it is not so, but from own your perspective. My own perspective, is formed from over 30 years of tasting its fruit, and coming from another 30 years of a Christian perspective prior to that. It is not for me to tell you what this fruit tastes like. You have your own tongue. All I can say is that it is not bitter fruit, nor is it inconsistent with the teachings of Abraham, Moses, and Christ.

. How does one who still fully believes in Christ tell another Christian something like this? How did Paul tell his fellow Jews who Jesus was? Its the same challenge. The same rejection occurs, similar arguments arise: “Because, because, because, etc…” and thats all part of the process. It is a normal occurrence throughout human history whenever a Prophet of God appears. Every single one of them has been rejected, scorned, often killed, and their followers are all put through the same tests, face the same denials and accusations as you are presenting here. It seems to be how it all works, and its working as it should be, testing and separating, sifting and purifying…
.