Why do you believe what you believe?

[openmind77]

Its not injustice when He has given us Baha’u’llah and we reject Him. Its perfect justice.

You are basically saying that when you purcahse a table from IKEA with instructions on how to construct it, that if you IGNORE and REJECT the instructions, that it is an injustice if the table falls apart and collapses…

Logic, my friend

What instructions? If cosmic radiation causes a mutation to produce a birth defect, it is not following instructions?

BTW IKEA will replace the the table without questions even if you messed up the constructions. Looks like IKEA is more just and kind than Bahauallah’s God?

Ok, to get back to Jesus - he was asked why a man was born blind and he explained that it was ’ so that the works of God might be displayed in him’.

What would be Bahaullah’s explanation? Basically he would have avoided the question, just like you are?

 

[openmind77]

openmind,
. I feel like you’re not hearing, or I’m not communicating effectively, or maybe we’re just talking past each other. The universe is not a “fixed” predictable system where mommy takes care of everything. Thats not this world, but a fantasy. Reality has, as you say, randomness built into it. Its “Alive!” Its moving and full of curve balls by design, in my estimation. If it were perfectly predictable, we could be in control and no longer dependent upon God.

. I think you are projecting too much onto Baha’u’llah, as though you want Him to fit your notion of Who He is and ought to be. To me, this is a deficiency on your part. He is Who He is, the Manifestation of God for this age. He is not our trick magician, here to satisfy our demands for entertainment or diversion. Rather, He is the embodiment of “He doeth what He willeth.” which refers to God does as He does, and it is to our behoof that we accept God’s will and reign in our ego and restrain our pride.

. “The humble will see their God at work and be glad. Let all who seek God’s help live in joy.” Psalms 69:32

. This isn’t to preach, but to illustrate that it is only through humility before God are we given access to Him. Pride is the opposite of that. If we are born with one leg or a bad chromosome due to random mutation, that is part of how the universe works.

. When you say, “What? Do we have to wait another thousand years for the answer?” That sounds to me that you haven’t read very much of Baha’u’llah’s Writings, which are an ocean when compared to the pools of all past Revelation.

. “Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/PB/pb-63.html

. It is a two-stage process: to “immerse” oneself in this ocean and to “unravel” its secrets. I can’t do either one for you.

.

I don’t think it is that complicated.

I think a person like Bahaullah, who claims to be the ‘Expected One’ the Avatar for the Age, Manifestation of God for the next thousand years, should have answers to all basic human questions. To me, Bahaullah just does not qualify. Jesus at least had an answer.

 

[Servant19]

What instructions? If cosmic radiation causes a mutation to produce a birth defect, it is not following instructions?

Yes, its called “wear sunscreen and sunglasses and appropriate clothing when you go out”
SLIP SLOP SLAP (in Australia)

BTW IKEA will replace the the table without questions even if you messed up the constructions. Looks like IKEA is more just and kind than Bahauallah’s God?

Firstly, I don’t think they will if you messed up by not following the instructions at all.
Secondly, if they do replace the table for you, then it is an injustice to THEM…you stuffed up, why should they have to pay?

Ok, to get back to Jesus - he was asked why a man was born blind and he explained that it was ’ so that the works of God might be displayed in him’.

What would be Bahaullah’s explanation? Basically he would have avoided the question, just like you are?

Nope, no avoidance. The metaphor for blindness is “spiritual blindness”…Jesus showed all the spiritually blind the light of God and through Him they were given spiritual sight and LIFE!

 

[Servant19]

I don’t think it is that complicated.

I think a person like Bahaullah, who claims to be the ‘Expected One’ the Avatar for the Age, Manifestation of God for the next thousand years, should have answers to all basic human questions. To me, Bahaullah just does not qualify. Jesus at least had an answer.

Which part of our answers is “not an answer” openmind?

Its not complicated at all…

Follow the Will of God and you will have spiritual and physical health.

Is that complicated for you?

 

[openmind77]

Yes, its called “wear sunscreen and sunglasses and appropriate clothing when you go out”
SLIP SLOP SLAP (in Australia)

Firstly, I don’t think they will if you messed up by not following the instructions at all.
Secondly, if they do replace the table for you, then it is an injustice to THEM…you stuffed up, why should they have to pay?

Nope, no avoidance. The metaphor for blindness is “spiritual blindness”…Jesus showed all the spiritually blind the light of God and through Him they were given spiritual sight and LIFE!

OK, I give up

 

[openmind77]

Which part of our answers is “not an answer” openmind?

Its not complicated at all…

Follow the Will of God and you will have spiritual and physical health.

Is that complicated for you?

OK, I will ask all babies to follow the Will of God from now on, so that they can have perfect health at birth.

 

[Servant19]

OK, I will ask all babies to follow the Will of God from now on, so that they can have perfect health at birth.

Remember the bit about “unavoidable victims”, and their pure souls?

This is the exact reason Baha’u’llah has come, because there is a collective responsibility we need to take on now. What the mother does, affects the baby.

What Mr A does in Australia affects Mr B in Africa…

Collective consciousness is now at a level where we NEED Baha’u’llah

.

 

[daler]

OK, I give up

openmind,
. That is a very zen like place to start. I commend you, brother. So long as we control things within the space of “I” … we shall be confounded.

. You continue to judge Baha’u’llah by human standards. I will tell you very plainly, that it took me ten years to get where you are at. I consciously recall bumping into the Faith, or hearing of it, 5 times in ten years. Both my brother and sister, several years apart, neither of whom are Baha’i, saw that I was searching and told me to look into the Baha’i Faith.

. It was not until I was broken-backed and bankrupt in 1979 that I “gave up”, and the next thing that happened is a Baha’i walked up to me, shared a few meals, and a little about the Faith. By then, I was “ready”. Before that, I was not.

. Whether you are ready or not, I cannot say, but it is exactly the same as the words of Jesus when He said: “Behold! I stand at the door and knock. If any man hear My voice, I will come in and sup with him, and he with Me.”

. Baha’u’llah will never kick your door down. He is the most gentle breeze with the most profound Revelation which God has every brought to mankind’s door.

. “Blessed is the man that hath acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs, and recognized that “He shall not be asked of His doings”. Such a recognition hath been made by God the ornament of every belief and its very foundation. Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly deed. Fasten your eyes upon it, that haply the whisperings of the rebellious may not cause you to slip.”

Kitab-i-Aqdas paragraph 161
.

 

[Servant19]

openmind,
. That is a very zen like place to start. I commend you, brother. So long as we control things within the space of “I” … we shall be confounded.

. You continue to judge Baha’u’llah by human standards. I will tell you very plainly, that it took me ten years to get where you are at. I consciously recall bumping into the Faith, or hearing of it, 5 times in ten years. Both my brother and sister, several years apart, neither of whom are Baha’i, saw that I was searching and told me to look into the Baha’i Faith.

. It was not until I was broken-backed and bankrupt in 1979 that I “gave up”, and the next thing that happened is a Baha’i walked up to me, shared a few meals, and a little about the Faith. By then, I was “ready”. Before that, I was not.

. Whether you are ready or not, I cannot say, but it is exactly the same as the words of Jesus when He said: “Behold! I stand at the door and knock. If any man hear My voice, I will come in and sup with him, and he with Me.”

. Baha’u’llah will never kick your door down. He is the most gentle breeze with the most profound Revelation which God has every brought to mankind’s door.

. “Blessed is the man that hath acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs, and recognized that “He shall not be asked of His doings”. Such a recognition hath been made by God the ornament of every belief and its very foundation. Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly deed. Fasten your eyes upon it, that haply the whisperings of the rebellious may not cause you to slip.”

Kitab-i-Aqdas paragraph 161
.

I love you brother Dale. Thats such a beautiful, and touching snippet of your soul’s story

.

 

[openmind77]

Remember the bit about “unavoidable victims”, and their pure souls?

This is the exact reason Baha’u’llah has come, because there is a collective responsibility we need to take on now. What the mother does, affects the baby.

What Mr A does in Australia affects Mr B in Africa…

Collective consciousness is now at a level where we NEED Baha’u’llah

.

OK, here is a quote from a scientific source:

“the majority of cosmic ray secondaries are highly penetrating muons. About 10,000 muons pass through our bodies every minute. Some of these muons will ionize molecules as they go through our flesh, occasionally leading to genetic mutations that may be harmful.”

This has nothing to do with what the mother does or use of sunscreen. You can stay indoors and they can still affect you. Nothing to do with where you live and what you do collectively, It is pure chance - otherwise known as an Act of God.

 

[daler]

Remember the bit about “unavoidable victims”, and their pure souls?

This is the exact reason Baha’u’llah has come, because there is a collective responsibility we need to take on now. What the mother does, affects the baby.

What Mr A does in Australia affects Mr B in Africa…

Collective consciousness is now at a level where we NEED Baha’u’llah

.

Obedience to but a single law of God: “Alcohol is forbidden” would greatly improve the condition of the lives of the majority of humanity, stop fetal alcohol syndrome, innumerable family difficulties, millions of deaths from automobile “accidents”, countless crimes, financial loss, free up enormous resources for other needs, whether medical, educational, social, etc, etc, etc.
.

 

[openmind77]

openmind,
. That is a very zen like place to start. I commend you, brother. So long as we control things within the space of “I” … we shall be confounded.

. You continue to judge Baha’u’llah by human standards. I will tell you very plainly, that it took me ten years to get where you are at. I consciously recall bumping into the Faith, or hearing of it, 5 times in ten years. Both my brother and sister, several years apart, neither of whom are Baha’i, saw that I was searching and told me to look into the Baha’i Faith.

. It was not until I was broken-backed and bankrupt in 1979 that I “gave up”, and the next thing that happened is a Baha’i walked up to me, shared a few meals, and a little about the Faith. By then, I was “ready”. Before that, I was not.

. Whether you are ready or not, I cannot say, but it is exactly the same as the words of Jesus when He said: “Behold! I stand at the door and knock. If any man hear My voice, I will come in and sup with him, and he with Me.”

. Baha’u’llah will never kick your door down. He is the most gentle breeze with the most profound Revelation which God has every brought to mankind’s door.

. “Blessed is the man that hath acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs, and recognized that “He shall not be asked of His doings”. Such a recognition hath been made by God the ornament of every belief and its very foundation. Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly deed. Fasten your eyes upon it, that haply the whisperings of the rebellious may not cause you to slip.”

Kitab-i-Aqdas paragraph 161
.

Actually I was just giving up on you guys, not on anything else.

You were ready to receive Bahaullah when you became broken and bankrupt. That is understandable. In such circumstances, people are looking for any kind of answer that gives them comfort and hope.

The question is:

Now that you are doing relatively OK, are you ready to receive the Christ when He Returns (fairly soon, I believe)?

Or are you so pleased with the flowery, poetic fluff that you longer need any other Savior? That you have stopped any further search and that you no longer have any more questions that need to be answered (outside those thousands of tablets)?

 

[Servant19]

OK, here is a quote from a scientific source:

“the majority of cosmic ray secondaries are highly penetrating muons. About 10,000 muons pass through our bodies every minute. Some of these muons will ionize molecules as they go through our flesh, occasionally leading to genetic mutations that may be harmful.”

This has nothing to do with what the mother does or use of sunscreen. You can stay indoors and they can still affect you. Nothing to do with where you live and what you do collectively, It is pure chance - otherwise known as an Act of God.

Dear friend,

If you remember, I mentioned a few posts ago that there are some environmental factors which contribute towards suffering which as yet we are not fully knowledgeable about.

There was a time, when people used to develop moles on their skin and eventually they died. What was that? Today we know it as skin cancer. Slip slop slap and you can avoid skin cancer.

These “muons” can be repelled also.

Baha’u’llah has A LOT to say on how science and the scientific community should conduct itself so as to enable MASSIVE acceleration of scientific knowledge to be attained.

Again, lets turn our faces collectively towards His teachings and guidance (His “instruction book”) and lets see what develops hey?

I assure you, when we turn towards the Source of Creation, then we will see the most unbelievable transformation of life on earth ever witnessed.
**
Why can’t we do that? **

If it doesn’t reap beneficial results individually and collectively, it really won’t be hard to go back to our “old” ways again and reject Him…

 

[daler]

Actually I was just giving up on you guys, not on anything else.

You were ready to receive Bahaullah when you became broken and bankrupt. That is understandable. In such circumstances, people are looking for any kind of answer that gives them comfort and hope.

The question is:

Now that you are doing relatively OK, are you ready to receive the Christ when He Returns (fairly soon, I believe)?

Or are you so pleased with the flowery, poetic fluff that you longer need any other Savior? That you have stopped any further search and that you no longer have any more questions that need to be answered (outside those thousands of tablets)?

Brother,
. There is really no way to explain to you what those “flowery poetic fluff” words of Baha’u’llah contain. They are the sweetest honey, the most potent elixir, the musk-laden perfume wafting on the breezes of eternity. It is the essence of the Lotus Sutra rising above the muck and mire, leaving the lesser world behind, pure and undefiled by it.

. I tell you very honestly, my friend, I did not appreciate the fluff thirty years ago, even as a Baha’i. It took me another ten or 15 years to begin to become awestruck at what was coming down from heaven in those words. Many of His Writings are very practical, and not so filled with fluff. Yet He sits upon the loftiest summit, the Throne of transcendent Glory, uttering only what God intends.

. If a bunch of guys in a bar cannot appreciate Shakespeare or Mozart, it is not because they do not represent the finest in theatre and music. I was a pride-filled bum at one time, laughing at racial and sexual jokes, flowing wherever the herd called, content with the foolish distractions of life and the self-indulgent thoughts of far too many philosophers.

. Take a couple of minutes and read the Tablet of Ahmad. It isn’t long. Don’t read it as you would a newspaper. It won’t affect you. It is a prayer, and should be said with a heart open to God.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/BP/bp-173.html

.

 

[openmind77]

Brother,
. There is really no way to explain to you what those “flowery poetic fluff” words of Baha’u’llah contain. They are the sweetest honey, the most potent elixir, the musk-laden perfume wafting on the breezes of eternity. It is the essence of the Lotus Sutra rising above the muck and mire, leaving the lesser world behind, pure and undefiled by it.

. I tell you very honestly, my friend, I did not appreciate the fluff thirty years ago, even as a Baha’i. It took me another ten or 15 years to begin to become awestruck at what was coming down from heaven in those words. Many of His Writings are very practical, and not so filled with fluff. Yet He sits upon the loftiest summit, the Throne of transcendent Glory, uttering only what God intends.

. If a bunch of guys in a bar cannot appreciate Shakespeare or Mozart, it is not because they do not represent the finest in theatre and music. I was a pride-filled bum at one time, laughing at racial and sexual jokes, flowing wherever the herd called, content with the foolish distractions of life and the self-indulgent thoughts of far too many philosophers.

. Take a couple of minutes and read the Tablet of Ahmad. It isn’t long. Don’t read it as you would a newspaper. It won’t affect you. It is a prayer, and should be said with a heart open to God.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/BP/bp-173.html

.

I don’t mean to imply that Bahaullah’s words are empty or not meaningful. I just suggest that you keep searching outside as well as within his writings. You will be surprised to find that there are many things which Bahaullah knew nothing about.

 

[daler]

I don’t mean to imply that Bahaullah’s words are empty or not meaningful. I just suggest that you keep searching outside as well as within his writings. You will be surprised to find that there are many things which Bahaullah knew nothing about.

openmind,
. My friend, I appreciate very much that you speak as you believe, and how you do not yet see Baha’u’llah as He is seen by his followers. For us, however, reading your words, we see very clearly in your wording that you do not discern His station as the Lord of Hosts foretold by the Jews, the One Promised by Christ, the Mihdi of the Muslims, Shah Bahram of the Magi, Maitreye of Buddhist prophecies, the awaited Avatar of Hindus, the Morning Star of the Native Americans. He is all of these - the Promised One of all religions, and you still speak of him as a man who didn’t know this or didn’t know that.

. In the Tablet of Hikmat (Wisdom), He mentions the great philosophers of history, complimenting them as inspired by God, and discusses their merits. In this tablet, which I would invite you to read in full, but give only a portion here which is relevant to your statement:

. “Thou knowest full well that We perused not the books which men possess and We acquired not the learning current amongst them, and yet whenever We desire to quote the sayings of the learned and of the wise, presently there will appear before the face of thy Lord in the form of a tablet all that which hath appeared in the world and is revealed in the Holy Books and Scriptures. Thus do We set down in writing that which the eye perceiveth. Verily His knowledge encompasseth the earth and the heavens.
. This is a Tablet wherein the Pen of the Unseen hath inscribed the knowledge of all that hath been and shall be—a knowledge that none other but My wondrous Tongue can interpret. Indeed My heart as it is in itself hath been purged by God from the concepts of the learned and is sanctified from the utterances of the wise. In truth naught doth it mirror forth but the revelations of God. Unto this beareth witness the Tongue of Grandeur in this perspicuous Book.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-10.html

Kindly read this tablet in it entirety that meaningful discussion may follow. Study it with care and attention, and above all, with an “open mind”. Please report back to me.

.

 

[Servant19]

I don’t mean to imply that Bahaullah’s words are empty or not meaningful. I just suggest that you keep searching outside as well as within his writings. You will be surprised to find that there are many things which Bahaullah knew nothing about.

I’d like to know what those things that Baha’u’llah knew nothing about are openmind

I, too am openminded to listening to other sources of knowledge, please do share …

On another note, you mentioned a little earlier that you have no doubt, and “unhesitatingly”, acknowledge that Baha’u’llah was a great Prophet. May I ask, what is your understanding about the connection between a Prophet and God? What exactly is a Prophet in your understanding?

Most impotantly, can a Prophet lie?

.

 

[openmind77]

openmind,
. My friend, I appreciate very much that you speak as you believe, and how you do not yet see Baha’u’llah as He is seen by his followers. For us, however, reading your words, we see very clearly in your wording that you do not discern His station as the Lord of Hosts foretold by the Jews, the One Promised by Christ, the Mihdi of the Muslims, Shah Bahram of the Magi, Maitreye of Buddhist prophecies, the awaited Avatar of Hindus, the Morning Star of the Native Americans. He is all of these - the Promised One of all religions, and you still speak of him as a man who didn’t know this or didn’t know that.

Like I said before, you guys need to come down to earth. If Bahaullah was indeed everything that you claim him to be, it will become self evident when everyone in the world accepts him. Right now, not even 1% of the world population buy any of these claims. But if you can not answer a basic question on the human condition in a straight forward way, it seems that either he did not know or did not want to tell us the answer.

My question put in another way: if there are a set of identical twins and one of them dies during birth and the other is born blind - what is the reason for such a occurrence. Why does one die and the other survive? How does God make this choice? Why is one born blind? (I hope the slip,slop,slap guy does not come back again with his sunscreen solution).

In the Tablet of Hikmat (Wisdom), He mentions the great philosophers of history, complimenting them as inspired by God, and discusses their merits. In this tablet, which I would invite you to read in full, but give only a portion here which is relevant to your statement:

. “Thou knowest full well that We perused not the books which men possess and We acquired not the learning current amongst them, and yet whenever We desire to quote the sayings of the learned and of the wise, presently there will appear before the face of thy Lord in the form of a tablet all that which hath appeared in the world and is revealed in the Holy Books and Scriptures. Thus do We set down in writing that which the eye perceiveth. Verily His knowledge encompasseth the earth and the heavens.
. This is a Tablet wherein the Pen of the Unseen hath inscribed the knowledge of all that hath been and shall be—a knowledge that none other but My wondrous Tongue can interpret. Indeed My heart as it is in itself hath been purged by God from the concepts of the learned and is sanctified from the utterances of the wise. In truth naught doth it mirror forth but the revelations of God. Unto this beareth witness the Tongue of Grandeur in this perspicuous Book.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-10.html

Kindly read this tablet in it entirety that meaningful discussion may follow. Study it with care and attention, and above all, with an “open mind”. Please report back to me.

.

So this is what I am talking about - lots of poetic words and not much substance. The point is that his knowledge does not encompass the earth and the heavens - many things are left answered or glossed over. .

 

[Servant19]

Hi openmind

It’s the slip slop slap guy again sorry (LOL)

You didn’t answer my question. What things did Baha’u’llah not have knowledge of?

If you want to know the population of insects on the planet, you are correct, He said nothing about that…

Also, He didn’t mention the number of habitable planets in the universe…

Do you know anything else?

.

 

[Servant19]

Just as a side note, it is not the purpose and intention of religion to make statements relating to science and the realities of the physical plane.

It is the purpose of religion to make statements on HOW TO DEAL with the realities of the physical plane.

I don’t think, as you seem to think open mind, the greatest Prophet in history (Jesus) mentioned anything about the world being round either. Does that mean He was unknowledgeable too?

Religion revitalises the “spirit” and grace showered upon the peoples of the world to be able to discover the realities of the universe for the advancement of all

.