Why do you care?

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Strength:
I thought I did a pretty good job with my post…Which in a nutshell could be summed up “Why do fellow Christians argue over specifics…or split hairs…i.e Purgatory?”…who cares? I’m fairly astute when it comes to philosophical ideas…and logical analysis…and I’ve read the bible, and read interpretations of the texts from the RC’s and the protestants among others…for every argument a protestant claims to make -an RC can find a passage to contradict it and vice versus…they are all fairly sound in that “religious/philosophical” sort of way, and they’ve been hashed out for centuries…so why bother - you’ll both probably end up in heaven.

And whether you want to believe that religous ideas are opinions is useless also I guess… but it is opinion…why have faith then? To have an opinion on something isn’t negative?..what’s the problem?

There aren’t a whole lot of objective facts outside of the material world my friend -if any. Show me a room full of people who are arguing over whether they are in a room arguing…and I’ll show you a room full of idiots…Hey do you guys want to argue over whether or not gravity exists?..hhhe
Do you exist or is that just an opinion?

There are certain undeniable facts, and one of the most obvious is the law of non-contradiction. Do you know what this is? If so, then you have the answer to your initial question.

Peace
 
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Strength:
I thought I did a pretty good job with my post…Which in a nutshell could be summed up “Why do fellow Christians argue over specifics…or split hairs…i.e Purgatory?”…who cares? I’m fairly astute when it comes to philosophical ideas…and logical analysis…and I’ve read the bible, and read interpretations of the texts from the RC’s and the protestants among others…for every argument a protestant claims to make -an RC can find a passage to contradict it and vice versus…they are all fairly sound in that “religious/philosophical” sort of way, and they’ve been hashed out for centuries…so why bother - you’ll both probably end up in heaven.

And whether you want to believe that religous ideas are opinions is useless also I guess… but it is opinion…why have faith then? To have an opinion on something isn’t negative?..what’s the problem?

There aren’t a whole lot of objective facts outside of the material world my friend -if any. Show me a room full of people who are arguing over whether they are in a room arguing…and I’ll show you a room full of idiots…Hey do you guys want to argue over whether or not gravity exists?..hhhe
If you say you are posting a question out of curiosity but then proceed to argue with the answers given to your question, I have to conclude that curiosity is not the real intention.

So, I ask you likewise. Why do you care? Why come to a forum to argue that it is pointless to argue? It’s a bit circular.
 
Uhmmm…what could you possibly be talking about? hehhehee
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dennisknapp:
Do you exist or is that just an opinion?

There are certain undeniable facts, and one of the most obvious is the law of non-contradiction. Do you know what this is? If so, then you have the answer to your initial question.

Peace
 
No…I believe I have been challenged and questioned by a few people…circular? Are you sure you know what you’re saying?
surf(name removed by moderator)ure:
If you say you are posting a question out of curiosity but then proceed to argue with the answers given to your question, I have to conclude that curiosity is not the real intention.

So, I ask you likewise. Why do you care? Why come to a forum to argue that it is pointless to argue? It’s a bit circular.
 
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Strength:
I thought I did a pretty good job with my post…Which in a nutshell could be summed up “Why do fellow Christians argue over specifics…or split hairs…i.e Purgatory?”…who cares? I’m fairly astute when it comes to philosophical ideas…and logical analysis…and I’ve read the bible, and read interpretations of the texts from the RC’s and the protestants among others…for every argument a protestant claims to make -an RC can find a passage to contradict it and vice versus…they are all fairly sound in that “religious/philosophical” sort of way, and they’ve been hashed out for centuries…so why bother - you’ll both probably end up in heaven.
It’s probably the same reason why scientists and historians argue. They want to know the whole truth and for others to know the whole truth. They are not satisfied with just having part of the picture or with others being left in the dark.
And whether you want to believe that religous ideas are opinions is useless also I guess… but it is opinion…why have faith then? To have an opinion on something isn’t negative?..what’s the problem?
Not really. There can be many valid opinions on the same subject. However, over matters of faith, when it comes down to it there is only one valid “opinion.” Either Purgatory exists or it does not. Someone is objectively right and someone is objectively wrong.
There aren’t a whole lot of objective facts outside of the material world my friend -if any. Show me a room full of people who are arguing over whether they are in a room arguing…and I’ll show you a room full of idiots…Hey do you guys want to argue over whether or not gravity exists?..hhhe
Well, it depends. Take a court case where a man killed someone and left a small body of evidence. Now, that evidence can be argued over. Some in the jury might come to a guilty verdict and some might come to a not guilty verdict. When it comes down to it, someone in the jury is right and someone is wrong, even though there may not be enough evidence available to make the correct answer obvious to everyone. Regardless of whether there is evidence for it, it is still an objective fact that the guy is guilty.

Likewise, it is an objective fact that God exists or it is an objective fact that he does not exist. One of these things is true and one is false. Only one of these beliefs can be valid, unlike opinions where there can be a variety of valid opinions, ie what’s better, chocolate or vanilla?
 
Back again (I’m a she, BTW).
Problem is, strength, that you equate any talk from anyone on religion as expressing ONLY opinion. If Mr. X talks about a given sin, you’ll argue that since Mrs. Y doesn’t think that it’s a sin for HER then it isn’t really a sin at all. Or only a sin for Mr. X and his OPINION.

Since you don’t believe that there is any absolute truth that can be expressed about any given religion or denomination thereof, you can (and do) go on about the relativistic, “why do you care, it’s ONLY opinion anyway”?

Of course, that is, indeed ONLY your opinion.
So you’ve painted yourself into a corner, and you want to paint everybody else into their own little corners. . .and never have to deal with any real absolutes. If God is only somebody’s opinion, then indeed there is no reason, in ANY sense of the word, to care.

Luckily for us all, He is not “just an opinion”.

Even on the monstruously sophistical argumentative ground that any given statement regarding a religious tenet is purely relative, it stands to reason that somewhere out there in that relativistic and indifferential world there is one “religion”, one “denomination” that is “more right” than any of the others. For a religious person, the judgment on what is more “right” rests on the known Aristotelian, Platonian, Augustinian, Thomistic or other philosophic standards of his or her religion (and this can and does include Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu etc.). Even the most atheistic, humanistic person out there has SOME particular judgmental “preferences”, be they ideological, governmental, even personal, i.e., “organic foods are BETTER than non-organic foods”, correct? But try to tell the die-hard vegetarian that just because HE thinks eating beef is wrong doesn’t mean that it’s wrong for everyone else. . .then sit back and watch the fur fly, figuratively speaking, as the person who a moment ago was calmly asserting his superiority in calling religious ideas “mere opinions” frothing at the mouth and refusing to accept the “opinion” of a carnivore as having any, ANY! moral worth whatsoever.

There ARE moral absolutes and this has been known for centuries. People have been trying to hide from the knowledge for just about the same length of time, too, or somehow justifying THEIR absolute opinions but nobody else’s.
 
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Strength:
No…I believe I have been challenged and questioned by a few people…circular? Are you sure you know what you’re saying?
Yes, Strength. Circular. It means going round and round. Your asking the question “Why do you care,” begs the same question of you. And I’ll ask you again, why do you care? What is the point of arguing about arguing? Can you not see the circularity here? The reason we argue is the same reason YOU argue … we feel it’s worth arguing.

Incidentally, you could use a smidge of a lesson on forum etiquette.
 
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Strength:
No…I believe I have been challenged and questioned by a few people…circular? Are you sure you know what you’re saying?
I’m with Surf(name removed by moderator)ure; can you not see that you are now arguing about religion when your original question was: why would anyone argue about religion? :rolleyes:
 
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martino:
I’m with Surf(name removed by moderator)ure; can you not see that you are now arguing about religion when your original question was: why would anyone argue about religion? :rolleyes:
Precisely my point.
 
Ok I’m convinced that your brain record is skipping on the “moral absolute” song…

My initial post was in regards to why fellow christians argue over biblical passages…I addressed an opinion question (thread got off topic), and I am correct in my answer…sorry if you disagree (you are allowed).

Your obviously one of those people who feel that you have to be a catholic to believe in a moral absolute (wrong again)…Morality existed long before jesus and the “catholic church”…didn’t Aristotle come up with 8 of the ten commandments using intellect?..
Tantum ergo:
Back again (I’m a she, BTW).
Problem is, strength, that you equate any talk from anyone on religion as expressing ONLY opinion. If Mr. X talks about a given sin, you’ll argue that since Mrs. Y doesn’t think that it’s a sin for HER then it isn’t really a sin at all. Or only a sin for Mr. X and his OPINION.

Since you don’t believe that there is any absolute truth that can be expressed about any given religion or denomination thereof, you can (and do) go on about the relativistic, “why do you care, it’s ONLY opinion anyway”?

Of course, that is, indeed ONLY your opinion.
So you’ve painted yourself into a corner, and you want to paint everybody else into their own little corners. . .and never have to deal with any real absolutes. If God is only somebody’s opinion, then indeed there is no reason, in ANY sense of the word, to care.

Luckily for us all, He is not “just an opinion”.

Even on the monstruously sophistical argumentative ground that any given statement regarding a religious tenet is purely relative, it stands to reason that somewhere out there in that relativistic and indifferential world there is one “religion”, one “denomination” that is “more right” than any of the others. For a religious person, the judgment on what is more “right” rests on the known Aristotelian, Platonian, Augustinian, Thomistic or other philosophic standards of his or her religion (and this can and does include Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu etc.). Even the most atheistic, humanistic person out there has SOME particular judgmental “preferences”, be they ideological, governmental, even personal, i.e., “organic foods are BETTER than non-organic foods”, correct? But try to tell the die-hard vegetarian that just because HE thinks eating beef is wrong doesn’t mean that it’s wrong for everyone else. . .then sit back and watch the fur fly, figuratively speaking, as the person who a moment ago was calmly asserting his superiority in calling religious ideas “mere opinions” frothing at the mouth and refusing to accept the “opinion” of a carnivore as having any, ANY! moral worth whatsoever.

There ARE moral absolutes and this has been known for centuries. People have been trying to hide from the knowledge for just about the same length of time, too, or somehow justifying THEIR absolute opinions but nobody else’s.
 
Jesus is eternal my friend…all things were made through Him…nothing existed before Him!
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Strength:
…Morality existed long before jesus and the “catholic church”…didn’t Aristotle come up with 8 of the ten commandments using intellect?..
 
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Strength:
G.K. Chesterton stated that the only things worth arguing about were religion and politics…I’ve thought about this alot, and I think he is completely wrong as far as religion goes…

Faith cannot be explained…it just can’t. Tradition…over thinking biblical passages, etc…They just cannot nor will they ever be reconciled…but Catholics and Protestants fight to the bitter end on whether or not Peter was the first pope…or whether purgatory is an actuality etc…etc…Why do you care?

I’ve been reading a lot of posts…and I’m picking up on a severe vibe of insecurity regarding faith, and strength…Aren’t you happy with your lives? Why do the religious fight so bitterly over things that are impossible to know? Is faith that fragile? Are we bored?..What is it that angers you so…I’m just curious.
Strength, what brought you to these boards? I can better answer your question if I understand what brought you to a Catholic forum.
 
Whoooaa… I posted a question on a forum…what in the world is your problem?.. I ask a legitimate question regarding why fellow christians argue over tenets…and you call me circular in my responses and then you want to ask me why I care? You sound manipulative and angry.
surf(name removed by moderator)ure:
Yes, Strength. Circular. It means going round and round. Your asking the question “Why do you care,” begs the same question of you. And I’ll ask you again, why do you care? What is the point of arguing about arguing? Can you not see the circularity here? The reason we argue is the same reason YOU argue … we feel it’s worth arguing.

Incidentally, you could use a smidge of a lesson on forum etiquette.
 
Hateful, offensive Christians knock on my door…leave pamphlets on my car, try to dictate domestic policy, foreign policy, control over my body, give long ugly speeches at the dinner table, tell me I’m going to hell, censor my music, call me a left wing sinner etc…etc… SO since all of you want to help me…I thought I would in turn try to help you…I’m just a missionary…and I have my own book of gospels…

How does it feel???

AND YES I AM BEING SARCASTIC
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Eden:
Strength, what brought you to these boards? I can better answer your question if I understand what brought you to a Catholic forum.
 
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Strength:
Whoooaa… I posted a question on a forum…what in the world is your problem?.. I ask a legitimate question regarding why fellow christians argue over tenets…and you call me circular in my responses and then you want to ask me why I care? You sound manipulative and angry.
But is is circular…

I argue that it is meaningless to argue about arguments.

Peace.
 
"Hateful, offensive Christians knock on my door…leave pamphlets on my car, try to dictate domestic policy, foreign policy, control over my body, give long ugly speeches at the dinner table, tell me I’m going to hell, censor my music, call me a left wing sinner etc…etc… SO since all of you want to help me…I thought I would in turn try to help you…I’m just a missionary…and I have my own book of gospels…

How does it feel???"- Strength

“You can ignore them.”- Eden
 
OK, edit here, I think that I will just quietly let this dialogue die out. Forget about it, I forgive you, if forgiveness is even necessary, for misinterpreting my posts. No need to go further. May God bless you.
 
Your obviously one of those people who feel that you have to be a catholic to believe in a moral absolute (wrong again)…Morality existed long before jesus and the “catholic church”…didn’t Aristotle come up with 8 of the ten commandments using intellect?..
You are making an assumption here that simply is, once again, not true. I mean that one has to be Catholic* in order to believe in moral absolutes. As you cited, morals were around in all cultures not just in Judaism (from which we got the Ten Commandments) or Catholicism which has built on the TCs with the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

Moral absolutes are called Natural Law. The Apostle Paul mentions this in his argument that no man is without excuse before God. And Natural Law was built into man by God when he created Adam and Eve. It is inherent in us all, but the revelation of Christ clarifies and enforces Natural Law, so that men might live in perfect harmony with the will of God through his redemption of all of mankind.

(*Please use the capital for “Jesus” and the “Catholic Church” as a courtesy as you would for use it for anyone’s name or recognized religious groups’ identity–thank you. 🙂 )
 
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