Why do you hate Islam?

[tomarin]

Like you, I believe that some people are rootless and fall prey to false religions, partly because of the failure of modern Godless systems. But there are also some who are eager to embrace exotic belief systems with a striking naivete or who deal lightly with religion and the question of truth.

That’s part two of the answer. Eastern religions have been popular in the West for some time. (Although I suspect Buddhism far surpasses Islam in popularity, if only because you have to pray five times a day in Islam.)

 

[planten]

Objectively, I find many of of Islam’s teachings, as represented by Islamists here, morally decadent. Easy divorce, multiple wives, slaves as sex partners, killing of Islam converts to Christianity, pedophilia.

** Easy divorce is not so bad as your “no divorce at all”. Your christians have revolted against your church theory of “no divorce”. Do you agree to that please? Your case is worse than the muslims. **

I’m not saying that all Islamists practice the above, but it is taught by Islam (according to Muslim posters here) and they are okay with this

…

** I am sure Islam does not teach easy divorce or slaves as sex partners or killing of converts or pedophilia. Islam does not teach any of that. But it seems that such things are taught to you in your church sponsored schools. Otherwise which muslim school is teaching pedophilia?**?

Forcing religion on people has not solved these problems. Women are still being stoned to death; fingers, hands and feet are still being cut off; homosexuals are still hung in public in Islamist countries.

**In Islam, Nobody is forcing religion on others. Islam does not bribe the poor christians to come to Islam. Stoning of adulterers is not prescribed in Quran.But still it is a good valid punishment prescribed in the BibleOT. So it is not too bad. Something is better than (your) nothing.

Islam prescribes 100 lashes for fornicators and adulterers. Now tell me please what would you like to precribe for the adulterers. Also bring it from your bible please. You want to let them go free so that they can enjoy themselves?? What would you suggest for the adulterers??
What punishment would you prescribe for the thieves. You be the God Almighty and tell a good punsihment for the thieves please and enforce it too in the world.

What punishment would you suggest for the homosexuals.Keep in mind the bibleOT and the bibleNT please and tell us what you would suggest for the homosexuals??**

 

[qui_est_ce]

jakasaki, you have a different religion to what used to be the religion of the world. I am sure the apostles of Jesus must have had more than one wife. It is not possible to check these things because their life in not described in bibleNT. Only jesus is described very briefly ( 3 years life history only) in the bibleNT.

What makes you “sure?” Do you have any evidence for your certainty? St. Paul was in fact single and recommended the single life if possible.

I am sure Mary the mother was not the only wife or the first wife of Joseph the carpentar. When we research and describe such things, the Catholics get angry and they say we are abusing their great god.

Again, what makes you so “sure?” Please provide us with your “research.” Catholics never get angry with Truth. We believe “The truth will set you free.” Telling us the truth about the Triune God is never abusive.

The polygamy is prophesied in the bibleOT, Isaiah ch.4 verses 1 to 3. See below:

Isaiah 4 (New International Version)

Isaiah 4
1 In that day seven women
will take hold of one man
and say, “We will eat our own food
and provide our own clothes;
only let us be called by your name.
Take away our disgrace!”

That is being foretold about a time when many believing youngmen will be killed in wars imposed by the infidels. There will not be enough men to marry all the ladies.So the prophet will order limited polygamy so that there is no corruption (illegal sex) in the society. That is what happened at the time of Muhamma]

May I remind you the OT has been fulfilled in Jesus. The OT people constantly fell into sin. Jesus lived the way Isreal should have lived. We are no longer in OT times. Since you brought up Isaiah, what do you think of the following verses?
Isaiah 53:

Isaiah
Chapter 53
1
Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2
1 He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him.
3
2 He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.
4
3 Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed.
6
We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.
7
Though he was harshly treated, he submitted and opened not his mouth; Like a lamb led to the slaughter or a sheep before the shearers, he was silent and opened not his mouth.
8
Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living, and smitten for the sin of his people,
9
A grave was assigned him among the wicked and a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood.
10
(But the LORD was pleased to crush him in infirmity.) If he gives his life as an offering for sin, he shall see his descendants in a long life, and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him.

**That is true. But it is not the whole truth. Because jakasaki has raised this problem, I may inform every one that the christians are luring the poor muslims towards christianity by offering them money and wife and bangalow. Such apostates are prized property for the Catholics. This should be noted by every muslim here that the conversions are not genuine at all. They are the result of bad preaching practice. So there is a retaliation from the ignorant muslims too. **.

Do you not feel that Christians owe charity to Muslims who are abused for converting to Christianity? Christians give money and housing to people of all faiths, whether they convert or not. Mother Teresa’s Sisters of Charity ministereto Hindus in India. Many convert because of the sisters’ witness to our Lord and Savior. Her order “houses” the poor and the dying, regardless of religious affiliation.

Planten, our discussions would be much more fruitful if you would address the answers to your posts instead of constantly defending yourself against new imaginary accusations.

Thank you,

Peace

 

[bobzills]

** In Islam, Nobody is forcing religion on others. ??**
This is where I have a problem. For example, I heard that in some countries, if a Muslim decides to convert to Catholic, he will be subject to capital punishment? Is this true?
And we read the horror stories:
christiantoday.com/article/14yearold.christian.girl.raped.and.forced.to.convert.to.islam/23218.htm
asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=10699&size=A
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/022045.php
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1146224.stm
edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/27/fox.journalists/index.html

 

[Lilyflower]

** Easy divorce is not so bad as your “no divorce at all”. Your christians have revolted against your church theory of “no divorce”. Do you agree to that please? Your case is worse than the muslims. **

The Church only teaches what Christ taught. Christ did not forbid divorce. What He forbade was marrying another. That is not the same thing.

The reason for this teaching was that it was common place for a man to divorce his wife on a whim and cast her out to beg. Christ saw this for what it was.

**Stoning of adulterers is not prescribed in Quran.But still it is a good valid punishment prescribed in the BibleOT. So it is not too bad. Something is better than (your) nothing.

Jesus came to teach us another way to violence. He qualified this by commanding His followers [not asking them or telling them it was a good idea] but very COMMANDING them to ‘love one another!’**

Islam prescribes 100 lashes for fornicators and adulterers. Now tell me please what would you like to precribe for the adulterers. Also bring it from your bible please. You want to let them go free so that they can enjoy themselves?? What would you suggest for the adulterers??

I would prescribe for the adulterers forgiveness as He forgave and gave us a model to forgive for Scripture says 'as you judge others so you will be judged and the measure by which you judge others will be the measure by which you will be judged.
What punishment would you prescribe for the thieves. You be the God Almighty and tell a good punsihment for the thieves please and enforce it too in the world.

We have a criminal justice system which punishes thieves. No-where does the Bible talk about mutilation.

What punishment would you suggest for the homosexuals.Keep in mind the bibleOT and the bibleNT please and tell us what you would suggest for the homosexuals??

Teaching them the that the Bible says ‘All have sinned’ but that we should try hard not to sin and to seek forgiveness and healing.

Man’s way is to seek earthly revenge in some way for wrong doing. But it is our solemn calling to ‘turn the other cheek’ and ‘to forgive’ and ‘to love!’

Blessings and peace

 

[qui_est_ce]

Easy divorce is not so bad as your “no divorce at all”. Your christians have revolted against your church theory of “no divorce”. Do you agree to that please? Your case is worse than the muslims.

This actually is not a theory, but a statement from Jesus himself. Catholics who divorce and remarry cannot receive the Sacraments. That is a big punishment.

** I am sure Islam does not teach easy divorce or slaves as sex partners or killing of converts or pedophilia. Islam does not teach any of that. But it seems that such things are taught to you in your church sponsored schools. Otherwise which muslim school is teaching pedophilia?**?

No, I never learned about Islam in my Catholic Schools. I learned it here from Elwill and Muslim Woman and Sister Amy, who said they were ok with anything Mohammed did, even having sex with a nine year old child.

In Islam, Nobody is forcing religion on others. Islam does not bribe the poor christians to come to Islam.

No, they just kill them if they don’t convert.

Stoning of adulterers is not prescribed in Quran.But still it is a good valid punishment prescribed in the BibleOT. So it is not too bad. Something is better than (your) nothing.

I think if you asked the people being stoned, they would not agree with you.

Islam prescribes 100 lashes for fornicators and adulterers. Now tell me please what would you like to precribe for the adulterers. Also bring it from your bible please. You want to let them go free so that they can enjoy themselves?? What would you suggest for the adulterers??

I don’t approve of adultery or homosexuality, but I think stoning is extreme. It’s the same as forcing your religion on pain of death.

What punishment would you prescribe for the thieves. You be the God Almighty and tell a good punsihment for the thieves please and enforce it too in the world.

In America, they are given a fair trial. Sometimes they are put in jail, sometimes their punishment is community service. But we do not mutilate people for thievery.

What punishment would you suggest for the homosexuals.Keep in mind the bibleOT and the bibleNT please and tell us what you would suggest for the homosexuals??

I’ll keep the NT in mind. The NT says you should disassociate yourself from sinners who don’t want to change their way of life. It does not tell us to cut of their hands or hang them for their sins.

 

[HickmanJosh]

**jakasaki, you have a different religion to what used to be the religion of the world. I am sure the apostles of Jesus must have had more than one wife. It is not possible to check these things because their life in not described in bibleNT. Only jesus is described very briefly ( 3 years life history only) in the bibleNT.

I am sure Mary the mother was not the only wife or the first wife of Joseph the carpentar. When we research and describe such things, the Catholics get angry and they say we are abusing their great god.**

 After the twelve men became apostles they left everything they had including there wives for Jesus.

Joseph was married to Mary, only Mary.

planten:

Easy divorce is not so bad as your “no divorce at all”. Your christians have revolted against your church theory of “no divorce”. Do you agree to that please? Your case is worse than the muslims.

True to many people chose to disobey the Church just because they are impatient. Marriage is met to last a lifetime.

planten:

But it seems that such things are taught to you in your church sponsored schools.

No, such things are taught in our schools.

HickmanJosh

 

[qui_est_ce]

This is where I have a problem. For example, I heard that in some countries, if a Muslim decides to convert to Catholic, he will be subject to capital punishment? Is this true?
And we read the horror stories:
christiantoday.com/article/14yearold.christian.girl.raped.and.forced.to.convert.to.islam/23218.htm
asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=10699&size=A
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/022045.php
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1146224.stm
edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/27/fox.journalists/index.html

This is very disturbing, Bob. We are indeed blessed to be able to freely live out our faith.
denver post:

denverpost.com/ci_8825345?source=rss
nation and world
Iraqi Christian priest killed
Baghdad victim is second senior Orthodox leader slain this year
By Stephen Farrell
The New York Times
Posted: 04/06/2008 01:00:00 AM MDT

A man sits Saturday near his injured wife at a facility in Baghdad. She was hurt during clashes in the Shiite enclave of Sadr City. ( Karim Kadim, The Associated Press )
BAGHDAD — A Christian priest was shot dead Saturday outside his Baghdad home by attackers who used a silenced pistol, witnesses said. His wife, they said, who stood near him, did not realize he had been shot until well after he had fallen.

The priest, Faiz Abdel, known as Father Youssef, **was the second senior Syrian Orthodox priest to be killed this year. And since the 2003 invasion, church officials say, about 40 percent of the denomination, the country’s second-largest Christian group, have fled their homes. **
Youssef, 49, was shot shortly before noon as he and his wife returned home from a market in the Unity District of east Baghdad.

Friends and officials at St. Peter and Paul Cathedral, just around the corner from his house, said that the cleric’s wife had just left the car and was walking across the driveway to the house when he was hit by three or four bullets to the chest and shoulder as he went to close the gate. The gunmen escaped.

As mourners gathered outside the gate of the home, Archbishop Severius Hawa, primate of the Diocese of Baghdad and Basra, paid tribute to “our son, the martyr.”

Speaking from the heavily barricaded cathedral, Hawa said, "This tragedy came as a surprise to us because we did not receive any threat.

“**He was still in his religious garments, so we believe they followed him from the market to his house and killed him. The most important point is that he was killed because he was a religious man.” **

But the archbishop said the “hand of the devil” was directed at all Iraqi sects, Muslim and Christian alike.

“Educated people, scientists, those who are working for the benefit of the country are all targeted,” he said. “If we lose one from our sect, 100 will be lost from other sects.”

The killing of Faiz Abdel follows the death of Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho, the leader of the Chaldean Catholic Church in Mosul, whose body was found buried in the northern city last month after gunmen kidnapped him in February.

 

[jakasaki]

This actually is not a theory, but a statement from Jesus himself. Catholics who divorce and remarry cannot receive the Sacraments. That is a big punishment.

No, I never learned about Islam in my Catholic Schools. I learned it here from Elwill and Muslim Woman and Sister Amy, who said they were ok with anything Mohammed did, even having sex with a nine year old child.

No, they just kill them if they don’t convert. I think if you asked the people being stoned, they would not agree with you.

I don’t approve of adultery or homosexuality, but I think stoning is extreme. It’s the same as forcing your religion on pain of death. In America, they are given a fair trial. Sometimes they are put in jail, sometimes their punishment is community service. But we do not mutilate people for thievery.
I’ll keep the NT in mind. The NT says you should disassociate yourself from sinners who don’t want to change their way of life. It does not tell us to cut of their hands or hang them for their sins.

across the board for you my dear!

And thanks to all who repsond to him because although he replies to my posts, I refuse to entertain him.

 

[qui_est_ce]

across the board for you my dear!

And thanks to all who repsond to him because although he replies to my posts, I refuse to entertain him.

Flattery will get you everywhere, friend.

I wish Planten would respond to our answers instead of coming up with new nonsense to defend.

 

[jakasaki]

Flattery will get you everywhere, friend.

I wish Planten would respond to our answers instead of coming up with new nonsense to defend.

There are NO new answers - it’s always the same, this is what they are programmeed to say.

This is why we’ve lost some of our good posters. Just tired of repeating over and over the same old thing. Just like an old LP when the needle sits in one place…

I don’t blame them (meaning the posters who left) . I too have had enough.

Best regards Chris…
JakaSaki / Pam

 

[qui_est_ce]

There are NO new answers - it’s always the same, this is what they are programmeed to say.

This is why we’ve lost some of our good posters. Just tired of repeating over and over the same old thing. Just like an old LP when the needle sits in one place…

I don’t blame them (meaning the posters who left) . I too have had enough.

Best regards Chris…
JakaSaki / Pam

Well, the one about Christians bribing “poor muslims” with wives and false teachings was a new one for me!

 

[dmfette]

…peace be with you…really…

…the teaching of the church is clear:

#841…"the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the muslims; these profess to hold the faith of abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day…

…i have read enough of the qur’an and bible to understand why the catechism of the church addresses islam as it does…

…i do not hate islam nor should any informed and practicing faithful catholic…we are charged with being kind and gentle people and to love those who hate and fear us…it is true, most people simply do not know what they are doing when they attack others in word and deed…

…i have been looking for a sufi who can truly see/accept me a person “of the book”…i would discuss things with this person…so far, i have had no luck…

…peace—>mark

 

[slyboots]

Originally Posted by planten
I am sure Mary the mother was not the only wife or the first wife of Joseph the carpentar. When we research and describe such things, the Catholics get angry and they say we are abusing their great god.

Planten, this is a grave error. Catholics firmly believe and it is taught to us as an article of our faith, that our Blessed Mother, Mary, the Mother of God, was sinless, a virgin before and after the conception and BIRTH of Christ. And most assuredly Joseph was her Most Chaste Spouse. That Jesus Christ was Mary’s only child. That perhaps Joseph had other children prior to his marriage to Mary but there is absolutely no information that he had another wife while married to our Blessed Mother.
You would do well to discuss Islam which you assumably know rather than to espouse theological erros about what our Church teaches and we believe.

Please excuse any typos in my posts for these evening. I have had some tests on my eyes and cannot see well.

 

[sedonaman]

this indicates the freedom of expression given to him

Perhaps. We don’t know the circumstances of the writing. Even so, I hardly think this was typical of what was accorded to dhimmis.

 

[sedonaman]

**jakasaki, you have a different religion to what used to be the religion of the world.
**

What are you talking about? There has never been a “religion of the world.”

**
I am sure the apostles of Jesus must have had more than one wife. It is not possible to check these things because their life in not described in bibleNT. … I am sure Mary the mother was not the only wife or the first wife of Joseph the carpentar.
**

How can you be so sure since “it is not possible to check these things because their life in not described in bibleNT”?
You are sure “the apostles of Jesus must have had more than one wife.” You are sure “Mary the mother [of Jesus] was not the only wife or the first wife of Joseph the carpentar.

Because planten is sure, they must be true. Well, I am sure of things about you. Does that make them true?

**
When we research and describe such things, the Catholics get angry and they say we are abusing their great god.
**

First of all, you have provided absolutely no research other than your own fairy tales. If that qualifies for research, it’s no wonder that Islamic thought is in such dire straits these days.

Catholics do not get angry because they think you are abusing God; they get angry because you make up absurd, outrageous statements that have no basis in fact and that even contradict each other, like the above; and you expect us to accept them as true. That’s an insult to our intelligence, and that’s what makes us angry. On the Outrage Scale, your fairy tales about Christianity are surpassed only by your fairy tales about Islam [see below].

**
… the prophet will order limited polygamy so that there is no corruption (illegal sex) in the society. …
**

Polygamy to prevent illegal sex in society? What a laugh. Polygamy is illegal sex.

**
…There is no punishment for apostates in Islam unless there was a war going on.
**

This is an ad nauseum repeat of your oft repeated fairy tales. The escape clause here is “unless there was a war going on.” By definition, there is always a war going on between the dar al-Islam and dar al Harb. It might not be a shooting war; it might be passive jihad; but, according to Islam, it is a war nonetheless; and it satisfies the requirement for all able-bodied Muslims to wage jihad.

**
…I know that in many Muslim countries, apostacy is punishable by death. But that is no concern of Islam because Islam does not support it. In Quran,there is no punishment for apostacy.
**

Then why is it that “in many Muslim countries, apostasy is punishable by death”? If it is a Muslim country, by definition it is run by Muslims, and Muslims are suppose to live according to Islamic law. You are saying they are not living according to the Qur’an, or you contradicted yourself again.

**
We have decribed it in detail many times.But Catholics keep on accusing us. … They should not accuse Islam.
**

Have you considered trying a different tack, like offering objective proof [that can be checked] instead of just descriptions?

**
… Because jakasaki has raised this problem, I may inform every one that the christians are luring the poor muslims towards christianity by offering them money and wife and bangalow. Such apostates are prized property for the Catholics. This should be noted by every muslim here that the conversions are not genuine at all. They are the result of bad preaching practice. So there is a retaliation from the ignorant muslims too.**

I thought your prophet praised ignorance.

P. S. You might try running your posts through a spell-checker.

 

[WillieWonka]

If you spend any time living and working in an Islamic country, you will very quickly see the vast majority of people live lives very similar to Americans. They have the same aspirations, work hard to provide for their families, enjoy TV and movies, and always have a soccer ball ready for a quick game. Some are good, some bad. Saints and sinners just like Americans.

If you live and work in several Islamic countries, you will see there are also large cultural differences. For example, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Malaysia, and Indonesia all have very different cultures. Much of what Americans attribute to Islam is an expression of culture rather than religion.

You would also find the vast majority are bored by all the bickering that goes on between a small segment of Christians and a small segment of Muslims. They don’t care any more about it than most Americans do. Muslims populations pay just as much attention to the Quran as Americans pay to the bible. And just how much is that?

 

[planten]

This is where I have a problem. For example, I heard that in some countries, if a Muslim decides to convert to Catholic, he will be subject to capital punishment? Is this true?
And we read the horror stories:
christiantoday.com/article/14yearold.christian.girl.raped.and.forced.to.convert.to.islam/23218.htm
asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=10699&size=A
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/022045.php
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1146224.stm
edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/27/fox.journalists/index.html

** bobzills, that is true. But we are not discussing countries here. We should be discussing the religion i.e. various faiths as per their sacred scripture. Otherwise I agree with you not only about punishing the converts but also many other bad things. That is the fault of the Muslim clergy, not the fault of Islam.

I can list at least 20 more major faulty beliefs that the Muslims have enacted them into laws in their countries. May I request you (inform you) that I am most interested in the original religions, Judaism, christianity and Islam. That helps me and keeps me happy that the original was the best. We can forget the rest as a practice or wishes of the ignorant people.**

 

[bobzills]

** bobzills, that is true. But we are not discussing countries here. We should be discussing the religion i.e. various faiths as per their sacred scripture. Otherwise I agree with you not only about punishing the converts but also many other bad things. That is the fault of the Muslim clergy, not the fault of Islam.

I can list at least 20 more major faulty beliefs that the Muslims have enacted them into laws in their countries. May I request you (inform you) that I am most interested in the original religions, Judaism, christianity and Islam. That helps me and keeps me happy that the original was the best. We can forget the rest as a practice or wishes of the ignorant people.**

OK. Thanks for the answer. But, you know, it is giving Islam a bad name. There are too many good things about Islam, so it is bad when Islam is given a bad name. What to do about this problem?

 

[WillieWonka]

“OK. Thanks for the answer. But, you know, it is giving Islam a bad name. There are too many good things about Islam, so it is bad when Islam is given a bad name. What to do about this problem?”

I’d be very interested in knowing exactly what countries actually execute people for becoming Christian. I don’t mean a reference to a book somewhere, but actual behavior. Real deaths.

It’s not the largest Muslim country, Indonesia. It’s not the second largest Muslim population in India. It’s not Turkey. Where is it? Today.

But executing people for changing religions is an interesting issue. If it was wrong for Muslims to execute people for converting to Chistianity, was it wong for Christians to execute people for following non-Christian beliefs? Aquinas said it was OK to execute heretics.