Why do you hate Islam?

[GraceDK]

**planten;.

Islam is for Peace at all costs. Repentence is necessary for all Muslims. Repentence was taught by John the baptist and Jesus too. But catholics replaced repentence with the blood of Jesus for salvation.**

The Old Testament prophets said: There is no atonement without Blood. You Muslims dont know what covenant, atonement and temple is all about. Because there is no continuity between Judeo-Christian thinking and Islam. Even many Muslims deny that the temple existed in Jerusalem… They thus come to look like people who cannot handle historical or scientific facts. They really live in the dark ages… Islam and ignorance are inter-dependant.
You can ask forgiveness all you want, but without atonement through the Blood of Christ, you will die in your sins. It’s that simple. There has always only been payed for the wages of sin through blood-sacrifice. When the Temple was there the blood sacrifice was made through a spotless male animal. Until Christ… the spotless only Son of God.

You have wrtitten that you do not hate Islam. Similarly we say that we do not hate christianity. There is complete freedom in Islam, Do not go after what the present day Muslims are doing. Rather see what your Catholics are doing. I mean teh drinking and the free sex and the gambling dens that are all over the places.

Actually the Muslim society I have lived in - the Palestinian one - was very fine with free sex - the young men went to mosque on friday and went fornicating or cheating on their wives on saturday nights… You hypocrites.
As for freedom, your peace religion is the only religion in the world today that has a sharia law complex that wants to dominate even people who do not adhere to the Islam. In that sharia its written: If anyone leaves Islam, kill him!
.
]Keep on hoping against hope. Your hopes will never be realised in the next world. jesus or Moses or Muhammad or Abraham will never like to see your face full of hatred for their religion i.e. Islam.

Its funny… I heard a talk on TV yesterday. The only Muslim I have ever heard who was practising self-scrutiny. She said: “More muslims have been killed by other muslims than by any western imperialism…”. Thoughtprovoking, is it not? The woman who said this has to live in a bullet-proof house because of critisizing Islam. Ever wonder why?

 

[swplan76]

There was no need to reply to your false notions. Prophets had been coming and the angels too came even to the non-prophets.

To clarify, The Bible warns that “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.” (2 Cor. 11:14) 2 religions came after Christianity, initiated with encounters with angels, or beings of light (Islam and LDS). The passage I have quoted almost seems to be prophecy of what Satan was going to do through Islam and LDS (I’m not saying I know this 100%, I’m saying that it seems likely to me). To me, either these religions came out of the imaginations of their ‘prophets’ or they were the result of Satan’s interference.

.

Only Islam respects Jesus.No other religion does it. To be a prophet is the highest that a man can achieve. it is a sin to make a god out of a simple man born out of a woman. Abraham and Moses and Jesus were all monotheists. They never knew about Trinity.

You must clearly be able to see, from what I’ve said and what you’ve said, that the Muslim perspective on Jesus denies all the power of who Christians understand Him to be as well as the worth and power of His death and resurrection (Muslims don’t believe in that right?). From a Christian perspective, you are saying that the creative force of the universe, God’s ultimate expression of His love for humanity and the savior of us all was just a messenger. For a Christian, Muslims do not respect Jesus, not for Jesus as we understand Him. You have respect for Jesus if He is just a prophet, “the highest that a man can achieve.” In what you’ve said above, you believe that to believe in Jesus as Christians do, it is a sin.

Christians are monotheists as well, as far as we are concerned…

** Every religion demands obediance to Allah only through His prophets who bring the message and they demand obediance to God. See the bible OT too.**

The calling of Jesus is an invitation, not a demand. God wants us to be free, but has no interest in pushing into it (in Christianity). In a sense, you could say, that God has created the world in such a way that every where we look and everything we encounter should remind us of Him and/or eventually lead us back to Him.
.

There is no such thing. Islam tells Muslims to pray to Allah for increase in knowledge.
The prophet Muhammad said “acquire knowledge even if youhave to go to China.”
The prophet Muhammad said "It is the duty (obligatory) of every Muslim man and woman to gain knowledge."

The “knowledge” must agree with Islam, otherwise it is Shirk or Kufr. If something leads a Muslim to confusion or doubt, in Islam, this is a bad thing. In Christianity (& Judaism), “wrestling with” the truth of reality is a good thing.

** Islam is for Peace at all costs. Repentence is necessary for all Muslims. Repentence was taught by John the baptist and Jesus too. But catholics replaced repentence with the blood of Jesus for salvation.
There is no abrogation in the Quran. It is all valid as was all Old Testament valid as said by Jesus that not a dot of the law will be abrogated**.

Yes, repentance is a common calling among the Abrahamic faiths, but in Islam, repentance is the alternative to being killed. In v.5 and 6 of Surah 9 this is most clear.
You are saying that Surahs and verses of the Qur’an that came last do not hold more authority? 2:106: “If We abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We will replace it by a better one or one similar…”
.

You have wrtitten that you do not hate Islam. Similarly we say that we do not hate christianity. There is complete freedom in Islam, Do not go after what the present day Muslims are doing. Rather see what your Catholics are doing. I mean teh drinking and the free sex and the gambling dens that are all over the places.

Do you see the hypocrisy in what you are saying?
You say, Don’t look at what Muslims are doing and judge Islam
instead
Look at what Catholics are doing and judge Christianity
Isn’t there a double standard here?, a lack of logic?

Catholics who do the things you mention are doing them against the teachings of Jesus.

Muslims who ambush and slay their enemies (9:5) do it with the blessing of the Qur’an.

Its interesting that you condemn Catholics for drinking and having “free sex” when that is what Muslim men are looking forward to as their vision of what Heaven will provide them with. Isn’t it true that Muslims believe Heaven will be a big gluttonous orgy? It isn’t phrased that way in the Qur’an, but that is what it essentially is. Its a hypocritical system, to refuse promiscuity and drunkenness on earth and then promise no end of it in paradise. One question I’ve had for a long time is, as Muslims men are having sex with all the “houris” (beautiful virgin female beings), where will the Muslim women be? Will they also be having sex with the “houris,” will they be having sex with men too, or will women be in Heaven at all - I don’t see any evidence of it in the Qur’an… (maybe I’ve missed something). It seems to me that the Qur’an does not provide women with any promise of an afterlife. Its as though they are animals.
.
cont…

 

[swplan76]

That was political pain in the stomach. Nothing to do with any spiritual matter. Please do not blame Quran for what it is not responsible. Islam did not teach to make the 9/11 attacks.

Surah 9:5

You have just made your own formula to your benefit and to the disadvantage of Islam. It has no meaning. it is just a few words of your mouth. You do not know anything about love. Your love is fake. Your love is fraud.

Keep on hoping against hope. Your hopes will never be realised in the next world. jesus or Moses or Muhammad or Abraham will never like to see your face full of hatred for their religion i.e. Islam.

Its interesting, I have not attacked you or your character. I have not spoken against you. How could I? I don’t know you. You have no basis upon which to judge me. We should be able talk about religion and speak of what we believe without resorting to this kind of immaturity.
One way that Islam is stereotyped is that it is quick to judge, condemn and insult others… and from what I’ve experienced, witnessed and studied, it is built into the religion (the Qur’an and Hadiths and religious practices).
Islam seems to offer this sort of pressure - believe what I believe or be condemned. I do not know of any Muslims who do not think this way.
Christianity tells us that God is the judge. It is not for us to decide who is in and who is out - God is on top of it. We are called to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us. Muslims are not called to that.
As we look at worldwide missions, Christians are out there, helping people of all faiths. There are some Muslims missions out there, but they are few and far between. From what I have studied, it is very difficult to get Muslims to take care of those in need. From what I’ve learned, Muslims won’t even help Muslims, let alone anyone else. The Qur’an supports the idea of having a weapon near by while you pray (maybe this is in the Hadiths), so you can kill your enemy if he comes to attack you while you are in prayer. The idea is that God is not going to provide protection, you have to do it yourself, take power and control yourself. I believe, because the Qur’an supports violence, ambush, murder, its difficult to see why helping someone you don’t know is a good idea. They may be an enemy who you may need to murder (according to the Qur’an).

 

[sedonaman]

**There is no abrogation in the Quran. **

Did you know you are risking apostasy by claiming there is no abrogation in the Qur’an?

Abrogation in the Qur’an.

…The Qur’an is unique among sacred scriptures in accepting a doctrine of abrogation in which later pronouncements of the Prophet declare null and void his earlier pronouncements. Four verses in the Qu’ran acknowledge or justify abrogation:

* When we cancel a message, or throw it into oblivion, we replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God * has power over all things?
* When we replace a message with another, and God * knows best what he reveals, they say: You have made it up. Yet, most of them do not know.
* God * abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.
* If we pleased, we could take away what we have revealed to you. Then you will not find anyone to plead for it with us.

Rather than explain away inconsistencies in passages regulating the Muslim community, many jurists acknowledge the differences but accept that latter verses trump earlier verses. Most scholars divide the Qur’an into verses revealed by Muhammad in Mecca when his community of followers was weak and more inclined to compromise, and those revealed in Medina, where Muhammad’s strength grew.

Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur’an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be “deficient.” Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself.*** [Emphasis added]

 

[koranist]

The Koran says:

5.43-47 **But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. **yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. . We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, **confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: **a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. **If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. **

**To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: **so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Its is clear here that the Koran does not see any difference between the scriptures and sees each one as sufficient on its own. But its all clear here:

To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah

that they are 3 different communities, each are tested by what has been handed to them from scripture. But it seems that the 3 communities somehow became 3 different religions with each claiming to be the only path and each claiming they are right and good and the other is wrong and bad.

The Koran says:

2.111-113 **And they say: “None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.” Those are their (vain) desires. Say: “Produce your proof if ye are truthful.” Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. ** **The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: “The Jews have naught (To stand) upon.” Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. **Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

Now the Muslims have done the same thing and have joined the “I am good and you are bad” party. The “I am in heaven and you are in hell” party. Yet none of them can bring forth any evidence of that from the scriptures handed to them by God.

The Koran says:

2.62. Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Once again we look back to:

To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah

Its not the scripture or the prophet you follow, its how much of it and how sincere of it you follow. Its like a race where everyone has the same feet and then you see who has run the fastest. Its not the feet that determines the outcome it’s how you use it.

And I honestly believe the 3 communities turned to 3 different religions because of the Talmud, the Trinity and the Sunnah. And yet when I compare the teachings of the 3 scriptures I see one faith and one message.

I plan to read all three, the Torah, Gospel and the Koran as I see each giving me a compliment of the other and increasing my knowledge and spiritual understanding. But at the same time each is sufficient on its own.

 

[sedonaman]

…
And yet when I compare the teachings of the 3 scriptures I see one faith and one message.
…

And what would that message be?

 

[Agabriel]

Did you know you are risking apostasy by claiming there is no abrogation in the Qur’an?

sendonaman, I think this quote is also important to know about abrogation and the Muslim idea of ‘repentence’. This goes into the redefinition of another word in Islam from our own understanding of it - repentence!

From your article:

9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: “But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way.”[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

So, basically what planten is saying is in line with Islam which is that either death, conversion or subjugation is the only conditions that they recognize for peace.

 

[Agabriel]

The Koran says:

5.43-47

Its is clear here that the Koran does not see any difference between the scriptures and sees each one as sufficient on its own. But its all clear here:

To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah

that they are 3 different communities, each are tested by what has been handed to them from scripture. But it seems that the 3 communities somehow became 3 different religions with each claiming to be the only path and each claiming they are right and good and the other is wrong and bad.

The Koran says:

2.111-113

Now the Muslims have done the same thing and have joined the “I am good and you are bad” party. The “I am in heaven and you are in hell” party. Yet none of them can bring forth any evidence of that from the scriptures handed to them by God.

The Koran says:

2.62.

Its not the scripture or the prophet you follow, its how much of it and how sincere of it you follow. Its like a race where everyone has the same feet and then you see who has run the fastest. Its not the feet that determines the outcome it’s how you use it.

And I honestly believe the 3 communities turned to 3 different religions because of the Talmud, the Trinity and the Sunnah. And yet when I compare the teachings of the 3 scriptures I see one faith and one message.

I plan to read all three, the Torah, Gospel and the Koran as I see each giving me a compliment of the other and increasing my knowledge and spiritual understanding. But at the same time each is sufficient on its own.

I deleted some of the post I am responding to due to lines over the limit.

Considering that the Quran wasn’t able to retell the stories of the bible correctly.

But these other points, are even more important that shows the differences in the Bible/Quran. The Quran wasn’t even needed, to be quite frank, except for the parts that really show Muhammed’s true intent - to kill, subjugate or convert those who disagreed with him.

Bible:
01- Affirms Trinity (Matthew 28:18-20).
02- Jesus was crucified.
03- God calling Jesus his Son (Mark 1:11).
04- Polygamy is adultery (Matthew 19:3-12).
05- No marriage in Paradise, humans will be like angels (Matthew 22:30).
06- No killing of any sort (NT), Jesus was healing people.
07- Lots of miracles for Jesus.
08- God does not change his mind, and Jesus words never pass away (Numbers 23:19) & (Mark 13:31).
09- Jesus teaching us not to swear (James 5:12).
10- No eye for eye, (Matthew 5:38-39).
11- Jesus was born in a manger (Luke 2:11-12).
12- Christians are children of God (Matthew 5:9) & (Galatians 3:26).
13- No Jinns creatures.
14- Noah’s wife was not a sinner, (Genesis 6:18).
15- Noah had no sinner son, (Genesis 7:1).
16- Noah total years before the flood 600 years & after the flood 350 years (950 years in total) (Genesis 9:28-29).
17- Aaron, Moses and their sister Miriam (NOT Jesus’ mother) are the children of Amram whom born around 1500 years before Jesus (Numbers 26:59).
18- If someone leaves Christianity, no death punishment (Matthew 10:14).
19- Pray alone in your room, (Matthew 6:5-7).
20- God three love stories (Luke 15:3-32), (Matthew 5:45).

Quran:
01- Rejects trinity, (Quran 05:73).
02- Jesus was not crucified, (Quran 04:157).
03- Jesus is no more than a normal messenger, (Quran 04:171).
04- Unlimited polygamy & divorce are allowed (up to 4 wives at a time), plus unlimited right-hand-posses (concubine or bought), (Quran 04:03).
05- Marriage (sex) & lots of virgins in paradise, (Quran 44:54), (Quran 55:56).
06- Smite heads, slay, fight, and terror, (Quran 47:4), (Quran 09:5), (Quran 09:29), (Quran 03:151).
07- No miracles for Muhammad, (Quran 17:90-93).
08- Allah can substitute his words or cause to be forgotten, (Quran 02:106), (Quran 13:39), (Quran 16:101).
09- Swear as you like, (Quran 05:89), (Quran 02:225).
10- Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth, (Quran 05:45).
11- Jesus was born under a palm tree, (Quran 19:22-24).
12- Muslims are slaves of Allah, (Quran 44:18).
13- There are creatures called Jinns (Jinns can be Muslims), (Quran 51:56), (Quran 72:14).
14- Noah’s wife was a sinner, (Quran 66:10).
15- One of Noah’s sons was a sinner and punished by the flood (Quran 11:42-46).
16- Noah total years before the flood were 950 years, (Quran 29:14).
17- Miriam (Jesus’ mother) is a sister of Aaron & a daughter of Amram whom born around 1500 years before Jesus, (Quran 19:28), (Quran 66:12).
18- Death is the punishment if someone leaves Islam, (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260).
19- Pray standing with groups in the street, (Quran 02:43), (Quran 04:102).
20- Allah is Makkar (deceptive/guile), (“plan” is a wrong English translation), (Quran: 07:99), (Quran: 08:30).

The Quran is such a kludge of a book that says that the 10 Commandments are not valid anymore and to listen to Muhammed and his god, and kill/terrorize/enslave/lie/steal/etc all you want if it is to people that don’t agree with you!

Since the twisting of love/hate, war/peace, tolerance/intolerance, etc is so common in Islam, it doesn’t surprise me that you can try to think that the quran is some sort of a compliment to anything. to follow islam is to follow Muhammed and the Quran, and that would be to follow the path to doom.

No thank you.

 

[jakasaki]

I deleted some of the post I am responding to due to lines over the limit.

Considering that the Quran wasn’t able to retell the stories of the bible correctly.

But these other points, are even more important that shows the differences in the Bible/Quran. The Quran wasn’t even needed, to be quite frank, except for the parts that really show Muhammed’s true intent - to kill, subjugate or convert those who disagreed with him.

The Quran is such a kludge of a book that says that the 10 Commandments are not valid anymore and to listen to Muhammed and his god, and kill/terrorize/enslave/lie/steal/etc all you want if it is to people that don’t agree with you!

Since the twisting of love/hate, war/peace, tolerance/intolerance, etc is so common in Islam, it doesn’t surprise me that you can try to think that the quran is some sort of a compliment to anything. to follow islam is to follow Muhammed and the Quran, and that would be to follow the path to doom.

No thank you.

Excellect source of comparison AGabriel - excellent -

This information is a keeper for my files. Thank you!

Best regards

 

[koranist]

Quote:
Bible:
01- Affirms Trinity (Matthew 28:18-20).
02- Jesus was crucified.
03- God calling Jesus his Son (Mark 1:11).
04- Polygamy is adultery (Matthew 19:3-12).
05- No marriage in Paradise, humans will be like angels (Matthew 22:30).
06- No killing of any sort (NT), Jesus was healing people.
07- Lots of miracles for Jesus.
08- God does not change his mind, and Jesus words never pass away (Numbers 23:19) & (Mark 13:31).
09- Jesus teaching us not to swear (James 5:12).
10- No eye for eye, (Matthew 5:38-39).
11- Jesus was born in a manger (Luke 2:11-12).
12- Christians are children of God (Matthew 5:9) & (Galatians 3:26).
13- No Jinns creatures.
14- Noah’s wife was not a sinner, (Genesis 6:18).
15- Noah had no sinner son, (Genesis 7:1).
16- Noah total years before the flood 600 years & after the flood 350 years (950 years in total) (Genesis 9:28-29).
17- Aaron, Moses and their sister Miriam (NOT Jesus’ mother) are the children of Amram whom born around 1500 years before Jesus (Numbers 26:59).
18- If someone leaves Christianity, no death punishment (Matthew 10:14).
19- Pray alone in your room, (Matthew 6:5-7).
20- God three love stories (Luke 15:3-32), (Matthew 5:45).

Quran:
01- Rejects trinity, (Quran 05:73).
02- Jesus was not crucified, (Quran 04:157).
03- Jesus is no more than a normal messenger, (Quran 04:171).
04- Unlimited polygamy & divorce are allowed (up to 4 wives at a time), plus unlimited right-hand-posses (concubine or bought), (Quran 04:03).
05- Marriage (sex) & lots of virgins in paradise, (Quran 44:54), (Quran 55:56).
06- Smite heads, slay, fight, and terror, (Quran 47:4), (Quran 09:5), (Quran 09:29), (Quran 03:151).
07- No miracles for Muhammad, (Quran 17:90-93).
08- Allah can substitute his words or cause to be forgotten, (Quran 02:106), (Quran 13:39), (Quran 16:101).
09- Swear as you like, (Quran 05:89), (Quran 02:225).
10- Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth, (Quran 05:45).
11- Jesus was born under a palm tree, (Quran 19:22-24).
12- Muslims are slaves of Allah, (Quran 44:18).
13- There are creatures called Jinns (Jinns can be Muslims), (Quran 51:56), (Quran 72:14).
14- Noah’s wife was a sinner, (Quran 66:10).
15- One of Noah’s sons was a sinner and punished by the flood (Quran 11:42-46).
16- Noah total years before the flood were 950 years, (Quran 29:14).
17- Miriam (Jesus’ mother) is a sister of Aaron & a daughter of Amram whom born around 1500 years before Jesus, (Quran 19:28), (Quran 66:12).
18- Death is the punishment if someone leaves Islam, (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260).
19- Pray standing with groups in the street, (Quran 02:43), (Quran 04:102).
20- Allah is Makkar (deceptive/guile), (“plan” is a wrong English translation), (Quran: 07:99), (Quran: 08:30).
End Quote

I have always been suspicious when people quote the verse numbers but not the verse text. Who is going to look up all these verses and comment on each one of them? Its something i detect by many in the net who hope people would not scrutinize their articles and quotes. Whose going to have the time to speand to comment on all those marks especially wehn the verses are not even shown.

Its called the “red herring” tactic.

 

[jakasaki]

Here - I’ll help you out with just the first one, and first one only

**Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, **

20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Koran 5 - 73
They do blaspheme who say:** Allah is one of three in a Trinity**: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

 

[tomarin]

Why do you hate Islam?
Is it because Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world?

I don’t hate Islam. And I don’t think most Americans have any view of it, positive or negative. There may be people here (on this forum, that is) who do hate it, but I will let them speak for themselves.

I do think there are legitimate reasons to oppose or dislike Islam, the most important one probably being the poor treatment of Christian minorities in countries like Egypt. There’s also the foreign policy aspect, in which Islamic countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia have elevated either anti-Americanism or anti-semitism (or both) to a state religion.

But the best answer I can think of to your question was phrased best by G.K. Chesterton, who said “tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” The people in the West most likely to oppose Islam intellectually are devout Christians, because the teachings of our faith and yours do not agree on the things that matter most to us.

I happen to feel that there are areas of agreement and opportunities in which we can work together to combat the relentless onslaught of secularist fundamentalism, but my opinon is likely to be in the minority here.

 

[sedonaman]

…
So, basically what planten is saying is in line with Islam which is that either death, conversion or subjugation is the only conditions that they recognize for peace.

I’m not sure this is what he was saying when he said there is no abrogation in Islam.

 

[Agabriel]

I’m not sure this is what he was saying when he said there is no abrogation in Islam.

Reread the part where it defines ‘repentence’.

Repentence in Islam, for us, is to accept Islam. If we don’t repent then we are to be subjugated or killed. So, those are the three choices that I am talking about.

9:5 abrogates no less than 124 verses that command or imply anything less than a total offensive against the non-believers. However, he says the verse is itself considered to be abrogated by the conditional clause with which it concludes: “But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the alms, then let them go their way.”[64] But such a condition is not magnanimous: When infidels repent and perform the Muslim prayer and pay alms, it means they have become Muslims. Once they are Muslims, there is no need to slay them. The clause thus becomes more coercive than conditional. It suggests than a non-Muslim must convert to Islam or be slain.

For us to ‘repent’ we would have to say their phrase that we would believe in their Allah and their Prohpet, and do other ‘Muslim things’. Basically, become a Muslim.

The abrogation comes in where surah 9 replaces the other surahs that are being used to try to prove something or other about Islam, or the Quran, not being violent. I basically read your article and found that phrase to be very interesting since it encapsulates the 3 conditions of peace for us - which planten did indeed keep telling us about - ‘repentence in Islam’. And planten practiced taqiyya/kithman because he left out that repentence in Islam is defined differently for Muslims than for the rest of us.

 

[sedonaman]

Reread the part where it defines ‘repentence’.

Repentence in Islam, for us, is to accept Islam. If we don’t repent then we are to be subjugated or killed. So, those are the three choices that I am talking about.

For us to ‘repent’ we would have to say their phrase that we would believe in their Allah and their Prohpet, and do other ‘Muslim things’. Basically, become a Muslim.

The abrogation comes in where surah 9 replaces the other surahs that are being used to try to prove something or other about Islam, or the Quran, not being violent. I basically read your article and found that phrase to be very interesting since it encapsulates the 3 conditions of peace for us - which planten did indeed keep telling us about - ‘repentence in Islam’. And planten practiced taqiyya/kithman because he left out that repentence in Islam is defined differently for Muslims than for the rest of us.

This is all very well and good, but it is just an example of abrogation in the Qur’an, which planten denied existed in the Qur’an. And all I’m saying is there is proof that there is abrogation in the Qur’an because Muslim scholars have said so; and, according to some of them, that he risks apostasy for such denial.

 

[koranist]

Koran on war and fighting

After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam’s true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse:

9.5. **But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: **for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

And also this verse:

9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

These verses are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. Lets look at some of them:

2.190.** Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits**; for God loveth not transgressors

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

Also:

2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: “Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members.” Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can…

All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran as saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.

Lets however look at the 2 verses that are often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context these verses are talking.

9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9.6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

9.7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

Also in the same chapter in explains the context behind these verses:

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.

As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

The Koran makes clear the job of the prophet:

16:82 **But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message **.

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

88:21 22; And so,** exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.:

 

[jakasaki]

I say this in a very loving way koranist - You are a sole fish in a sole fish bowl.

The self proclaimed mohamad, **if **the koran is allahs’ word, did not heed.

Mathew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mathew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[sedonaman]

Koran on war and fighting

After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam’s true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse:

9.5. **But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: **for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

And also this verse:

9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

These verses are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. Lets look at some of them:

2.190.** Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits**; for God loveth not transgressors

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

Also:

2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: “Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members.” Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can…

All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran as saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.

Lets however look at the 2 verses that are often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context these verses are talking.

9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9.6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

9.7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

Also in the same chapter in explains the context behind these verses:

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.

As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God**.’ 22:39-40

The Koran makes clear the job of the prophet:

16:82 **But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message **.

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

88:21 22; And so,** exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.**

I repeat, will the real Islam please stand up?!!

 

[jakasaki]

I repeat, will the real Islam please stand up?!!

Hi there SedonaMan - I don’t think it exists and I don’t believe it ever existed…!!

Be well my friend…

Best regards,
Pam

 

[Agabriel]

This is all very well and good, but it is just an example of abrogation in the Qur’an, which planten denied existed in the Qur’an. And all I’m saying is there is proof that there is abrogation in the Qur’an because Muslim scholars have said so; and, according to some of them, that he risks apostasy for such denial.

You are right there.

When I read the article I guess I went on another tangent. Sorry to confuse things. I found the article to be very good on many different things - thanks.