Why do you idolize the Pope?

[bpbasilphx]

Why do you idolize the Pope?

I know of nobody who idolizes the Pope, and what’s more, you really don’t either, no matter how much you merely think you do.

 

[Denae]

Because we’re all made with a “pope shaped void” in our lives, and we will find something to fill it, even if it’s not the pope.

 

[Gamera]

. I understand that in you have additional books and I am not fully aware of your religion…

Catholics have the same New Testament that Protestants have. Our Old Testament differs from yours — there are seven books and parts of four other books which were always in the Christian Canon of the Old Testament until the Protestant Reformers removed them. Both Catholics and Orthodox have those books while Protestants do not. But they don’t directly affect this issue, since the papacy was founded in New Testament times and we all share the same New Testament Canon.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

No. This is not a “drive-by”. I just happen to have a life…so I will not be responding to any at the very moment they are posted!
You should not be bashing a fellow Christian! If I offended you in any way by my words, I apologize.

##** There’s nothing to apologise for **

I am on your side…I am just driving for a good answer that can explain what I will clarify:
First off, the Catholics seem to put the Pope on a pedestal. I do not see that as abiding by the Bible.

When you say “put on a pedestal”, what have you in mind ?​

It says in the Ten Commandments to have no idols.
I do not see the bowing down to the Pope as being something God would approve of.
Second of all, where does it say in the Bible that God has placed the Pope in position. I understand that in you have additional books and I am not fully aware of your religion, but no where in my Bible did God put a man over other men in the current age. God does not speak of the current age.

Matthew 16.13 & following, is one place you might look It is only a very small part of the Biblical “case” for the Papacy. There is John 21; & many other places, relevant directly & indirectly.​

**When Jesus committed the keys to Peter, He was sharing with a mortal man an authority which is always His own - so Peter is a shepherd, just as Jesus is the great Shepherd of the sheep. God is the Rock - & so is Peter. A lot of names which belong properly to God alone, are shared with men in the gospels: Jesus is the Light - His disciples are lights. And so on. **

**This authority to bind & loose has taken different forms - Peter, an Apostle, calls himself a “fellow-elder”. He was not a Pope - that idea sees things the wrong way round. Rather than his being a Pope because the Pope has the same authority as Peter, Peter’s authority took various forms before the Papacy as such developed: his authority is continued in the Popes’ authority, for this reason: it is in reality not Peter’s own, but Christ’s. **

This is not an issue to be thrashed out in a few posts

Where do you come up with this system that the Catholic church has established?

**The Catholic belief & confidence is that the Holy Spirit who guided the Church in the Book of Acts, has guided the Church since then too, & not left Christians to be orphans. Not because we are faithful (!) but because God is. **​

And, lastly, why do many Catholics that I come across believe that their religion is the only right and that other religions have an end?

**How is worshipping Christ as the only Saviour different in kind from saying that only one society among men is the Church of God ? **​

**Jesus is uniquely important, as the only Man Who is the Divine Saviour; & that’s not an “RC” idea, that’s from Acts 4.12, which inspired Scripture. As “the Church” is His Body, why is it a stretch to believe that it too is uniquely important, & for the same purpose ? **

**The Catholic claim can be expressed sinfully or unBiblically - that doesn’t make the claim itself unBiblical or sinful. If it is arrogant, how is insisting on the uniqueness of Christ any less arrogant ? “But we know by faith that Christ is Lord & Saviour”; and it is by faith that Catholics - following the teaching of Scripture itself - believe in the uniqueness of the Unique Church of the Unique Christ. The rightness Catholic belief is not self-evident, & the belief is open to various criticisms; but it is well-supported in the Bible. The case for it is not founded on mere tribalism. **

We should be working together to spread the Word and to build the faith…not destroy it and pick it apart!!
United we stand, divided we fall!!!

**True - & there are various Catholic documents which suggest how this might be done, despite the differences. **​

**Hope that helps **

 

[pcrusader]

Thanks you guys!
I understand now more of where you are coming from. Now I can understand why the Pope is there and more of what the Catholic religion stands for.
Much appreciated to all the great answers.

 

[Denae]

What religion are you, if you don’t mind me asking? I assume you are a Christian, but a certain branch?

 

[MarcoPolo]

It says in the Ten Commandments to have no idols.
Second of all, where does it say in the Bible that God has placed the Pope in position.

The Pope is not an idol. The 1st commandment prohibits the worship of idols as other gods. The Pope is not a god. He is the leader of all bishops as Peter’s successor.

This past month, I was in a formal debate on the origin of the Papacy. Here is the link to that debate. I encourage you to read it all, so you can even compare to my opponent’s commentary. But the focus on Scripture is in post #12.

I’m sure others can give you a good treatment too. Among other sources, there is a fairly exhaustive treatment in the book “The Biblical Basis for the Papacy”. From Amazon. Or online free here.

 

[Ghoti]

No. This is not a “drive-by”. I just happen to have a life…so I will not be responding to any at the very moment they are posted!
You should not be bashing a fellow Christian! If I offended you in any way by my words, I apologize. I am on your side…I am just driving for a good answer that can explain what I will clarify:
First off, the Catholics seem to put the Pope on a pedestal. I do not see that as abiding by the Bible.
It says in the Ten Commandments to have no idols.
I do not see the bowing down to the Pope as being something God would approve of.
Second of all, where does it say in the Bible that God has placed the Pope in position. I understand that in you have additional books and I am not fully aware of your religion, but no where in my Bible did God put a man over other men in the current age. God does not speak of the current age.
Where do you come up with this system that the Catholic church has established?
And, lastly, why do many Catholics that I come across believe that their religion is the only right and that other religions have an end? We should be working together to spread the Word and to build the faith…not destroy it and pick it apart!!
United we stand, divided we fall!!!

Soooo…unite with us!

See you at the Tiber?

 

[PaulDupre]

Dear pcrusader,

Here is a great article in a non-Catholic publication which explains why Catholics have a pope and why he is important to us.

Paul

 

[chris_molter]

You should not be bashing a fellow Christian!

You’re 100% correct. Some of my fellow Catholics’ behavior is shameful. Please forgive them.

And, lastly, why do many Catholics that I come across believe that their religion is the only right and that other religions have an end?

Because we believe strongly in the truth, and we believe that only within the Church is the true interpretation of scripture possible. I’m glad to see you’re curious about our history (remember that before the Reformation, all Christians were Catholic or Orthodox and before the Great Schism, all were Catholic (ok, or Orthodox from their POV, but that’s another debate).

I’d HIGHLY recommend reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which can be read online for free, just google it). You don’t have to go cover to cover, but you can jump to the sections that will help answer some of your basic questions. There are also shorter versions of the Catechism which can be helpful as well.

We should be working together to spread the Word and to build the faith…not destroy it and pick it apart!!
United we stand, divided we fall!!!

I agree with you. Secularism, apathy, and militant Islam are greater threats to Christianity than our disagreements. Please understand, though, that when we disagree with you, it certainly doesn’t mean we are not your brothers in Christ. We share One Baptism in Christ and that’s where any fruitful discussion begins. Good luck!

 

[bpbasilphx]

** Originally Posted by pcrusader View Post
You should not be bashing a fellow Christian!**

Of course, your very opening post, and its very title, using the pejorative word “idolize” is not bashing Catholic Christians, is it?

 

[chris_molter]

** Originally Posted by pcrusader View Post
You should not be bashing a fellow Christian!**

Of course, your very opening post, and its very title, using the pejorative word “idolize” is not bashing Catholic Christians, is it?

Or it could be that he genuinely misunderstands and thinks we DO idolize the Pope inappropriately, given what he’s been taught his whole life… Given his polite responses to the slew of sarcasm from folks here, perhaps he should be given the benefit of the doubt?

 

[water]

First off, the Catholics seem to put the Pope on a pedestal. I do not see that as abiding by the Bible.
It says in the Ten Commandments to have no idols.
I do not see the bowing down to the Pope as being something God would approve of.

You have quite a few questions in one single thread.
But here is the first answer to bowing down to someone. It isn’t about bowing down to worship a Pope. People nodding their head down to show their respect. If you understand how it is in Asia country, you will realize it is just away people showing respect to one another.

Just for example: this man is showing respect to some monks

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5384/1671599hb0.jpg

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[heisenburg]

As a very simple note… you made the statement that you wanted to understand our ‘religion’ better…

Our religion is Christianity… If you want a biblical explanation on our way of practicing…

1. John 3:16 applies

but as Catholics… we don’t stop there as MANY protestants do

we also believe that

That “…Not everyone that cries Lord Lord will be saved…”
That “…he who know what is right, and does not do it, Sins…”
That “…no sin can enter heaven…”
That “…a faith with out works is a dead Faith…”
That “…We are saved by grace…”
That we must “… run the race to the end…”
That we are to “… eat his flesh and drink his blood…”
That we are to "… Be born again of water and spirit … "
That we are to “… repent and be baptized…”

With respect to the pope we believe that “…He who wishes to be the greatest must be the least, just as the son of man came not to be served, but to serve…”

We also believe that “… the gates of hell shall not prevail…”

IN a nut shell, all from scripture… All subjects can be delved into much more deeply, but the Church as a whole does NOT do anything contrary to scripture…

In Christ

 

[wisdomseeker]

Why do you idolize the Pope?

The pope. oh ye the pope. he is our PAPA.

:bowdown: :bowdown2: :crying: :crying:

 

[bpbasilphx]

** Originally Posted by pcrusader View Post
It says in the Ten Commandments to have no idols.
Second of all, where does it say in the Bible that God has placed the Pope in position.**

Note that pccrusader accuses people of bashing him–yet HE makes bashing statements.

 

[White_Russian]

Why do you idolize the Pope?

First let me roll my eyes and say “here we go again, another one who believes in centuries old propaganda.”

Now listen up!!!

We do not idolize the pope, saints, statutes or Mary.
We worship God. we revere the saints and hope to emulate their goodness and holiness. We have statutes the same way we have pictures of our families – Remembrance. Mary is the mother of our Divine Saviour and our spiritual mother, not a godess. We have a special love and reverence for her. We do not worship Mary. We worship God.

As for the Pope, he is the glue that keeps our church united. If there were no central authority," we would morph into a series of religions just like the Protestants. I believe there are now 30,000 to 32,000 Protestant religions, each with its own theology. Even Martin Luther said, “I did not bring the Pope down to raise many Popes” when he saw the proliferation of the many Protestant movements in Europe.

For the third time, remember, we worship God. How many centuries does it take for you to recognize that we do not worship the Pope, idols, statutes, Mary or the saints? This is the 21st Century. Jump into it.

Got it? Good!

 

[holy_wood]

It says in the Ten Commandments to have no idols.
I do not see the bowing down to the Pope as being something God would approve of

pcrusader this is Terence and since you wanted to use the Bible I want you to consider these passage

s.

Deut. 5:9 - God’s command, “you shall not bow down to them” means “do not worship them.” But not all bowing is worship. Here God’s command is connected to false worship.

Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot** bowed down to the ground in veneration** before two angels in Sodom.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph** (a man)** with the face to the ground.

Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an** angel**.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel (a man) with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.

1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David (a man).

2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha (a man) at Jericho.

1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David (a man) with his face to the ground.

2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar (an object) by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.

Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.

Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite **kneels before Judith venerating **her ( a woman) and praising God.

Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God’s Holy Temple (an object).

Dan. 2:46 - the** king fell down on his face** paying homage to Daniel (a man) and commands that an offering be made to him.

Daniel 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

1 Macc. 4:40,55 - Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God.

 

[JRKH]

** Originally Posted by pcrusader View Post
It says in the Ten Commandments to have no idols.
Second of all, where does it say in the Bible that God has placed the Pope in position.**

Note that pccrusader accuses people of bashing him–yet HE makes bashing statements.

Let us act in a Christian manner.
This person may have trouble putting things down in writing, but has expressed a desire for dialog. In addition, another poster here who knows this person has vouched for his/her sincerity.
If you wish to address the theological questions raised please do so.
Such, “they started it” type statements as above simply accomplish nothing.

Peace
James

 

[vocatio]

I believe holy_wood has responded very well with scriptural references that should be very easy to translate as an excellent explanation.

This is a good technique to defuse misunderstandings that are passed around in the anti-Catholic world. It takes a while to absorb. But once someone realizes that they have been duped their guard begins to slowly let down. That is in my opinion the best technique, that I don’t always use either. We get quite tired of people bashing us, even if it’s not intended. So patience with bothe Catholics and seekers should be exercized.