WHY do you [if you do?] think the RCC is not the One true Church founded by Christ?

[LatinRight]

Continuation

PREDESTINATION OF THE ELECT

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.

CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc.

One cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accept them with respect and affection as brothers. …

All who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore right to be called Christians. …

Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church. …

**SUM UP OF CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc.

The Roman Catholic Church affirms:
The Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, etc. Churches are True Churches.**

To clearly understand the issue of The One True Church position and a True Church position we must understand:

**In the past when the RCC position was: There is no salvation outside the RCC, legally/officially the RCC had The One True Church position.

THE RESULTS OF THE ONE TRUE CHURCH POSITION OF THE RCC **

Every member of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches are false Christians/Reprobates, and reprobates made up the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox heretical Churches and all their members predestined to hell. – Unavoidable results of The One True Church position of the RCC.

I don’t know the date when it happened.
The RCC realized, their One True Church position is incorrect and the RCC abandoned The One True Church position and now teach, the members of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches are God’s children/elect and their Churches are True Churches as well.

This change unavoidable result was the end of The One True Church position and the RCC adopted a True Church position (CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc). – This change of position is the teaching of the RCC and we must accept it.

In reality it is not hard to accept this change of position.

The large majority of Catholic believes there is salvation in the Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches.

**Do you understand Patrick the above change of the RCC position?

If you understand, you know the RCC is a True Church and you also know the reason that the RCC is a True Church, instead of The One True Church.**

Of course only God knows who are the elect and who are the reprobates in the Churches but because we don’t know, we must treat everyone as an elect of God.

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[rinnie]

The RCC never condemned anyone to hell. The teaching was and aways will be There is no Salvation outside of the RCC. People took this and ran with it and made it say what they wanted it to say for years.

The Teaching of the RCC is and always has been that Jesus Christ and his Church are one. The RCC has always taught that the RCC is the FULLNESS of truth. We have always accepted truth in all faiths. But also know only one has the fullness of truth.

Years ago before Protestant Churchs existed there was only one teaching and one Church so they understood that there is no Salvation outside of Christ, and knew that the RCC and Christ are one.

If the RCC said there is no Salvation outside of Jesus Christ there would be no arguing with Christians. Which is what the Church was saying and has always said. But because Protestant faiths do not understand as we do in the Church that they are one, they try to make the Church say something they never said.

The true teaching is and will always be there is no salvation outside of the RCC which is one with Christ. Again people do anything to pick the Church apart, or try to accuse them to change a Teaching, which will never happen. They said it and mean it. IF a Christian can show us that Christ and his true Church are not one prove it. Because that is what he taught us. If they can prove Christ is not one with the RCC again prove it. Because we have Apostolic teachings that prove it.

 

[rinnie]

Continuation

PREDESTINATION OF THE ELECT

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE ***Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.

CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc.

One cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accept them with respect and affection as brothers. …

All who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore right to be called Christians. …

Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church. …

**SUM UP OF CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc.

The Roman Catholic Church affirms:
The Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, etc. Churches are True Churches.**

To clearly understand the issue of The One True Church position and a True Church position we must understand:

**In the past when the RCC position was: There is no salvation outside the RCC, legally/officially the RCC had The One True Church position.

THE RESULTS OF THE ONE TRUE CHURCH POSITION OF THE RCC **

Every member of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches are false Christians/Reprobates, and reprobates made up the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox heretical Churches and all their members predestined to hell. – Unavoidable results of The One True Church position of the RCC.

I don’t know the date when it happened.
The RCC realized, their One True Church position is incorrect and the RCC abandoned The One True Church position and now teach, the members of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches are God’s children/elect and their Churches are True Churches as well.

This change unavoidable result was the end of The One True Church position and the RCC adopted a True Church position (CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc). – This change of position is the teaching of the RCC and we must accept it.

In reality it is not hard to accept this change of position.

The large majority of Catholic believes there is salvation in the Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches.

**Do you understand Patrick the above change of the RCC position?

If you understand, you know the RCC is a True Church and you also know the reason that the RCC is a True Church, instead of The One True Church.**

Of course only God knows who are the elect and who are the reprobates in the Churches but because we don’t know, we must treat everyone as an elect of God.

God bless,

LatinRight

Perfect example of what I just said. Please show me where the RCC ever said what you are trying to make it say. The RCC has alway and will always accept any truth of any Church. The RCC said that while these Church’s have truth they do not have the FULLNESS of truth. Said it and meant it.

Please tell me were the RCC every said that these Church’s you named are the one truth Church. Because the teaching of the RCC is unless this Church’s have the fullness of truth they are not the ONE TRUE CHURCH. IT must have 4 marks. Do these Church’s you mentioned have Mark number one Apostolic Succession, Are they ONE in teaching, Is it Holy and it is Catholic. If not you have not got the fullness of truth.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

Re: Bp Ware

I used a quote properly referenced.

These expressions “and the Son” or “through the Son” mean the same thing. ***Orthodox Bishop Kallistos ***Ware, who once adamantly opposed the filioque doctrine, states: “The filioque controversy which has separated us for so many centuries is more than a mere technicality, but it is not insoluble. Qualifying the firm position taken when I wrote [my book] The Orthodox Church twenty years ago, I now believe, after further study, that the problem is more in the area of semantics and different emphases than in any basic doctrinal differences” (Diakonia, quoted from Elias Zoghby’s A Voice from the Byzantine East, 43).

That said, you might have missed the following post, in which I added some added text from Florence

#209

I added from Florence (all emphasis mine)

"we define, with the approval of this holy universal council of Florence, that the following truth of faith shall be believed and accepted by all Christians and thus shall all profess it: that t**he holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally *as from one principle and a single spiration. "

What is underlined, is language used in defining an infallible doctrine when approved by the Pope.
*
To deny this, is to deny Jesus is God*
*

No, it is not.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

God bless PJM,

In the past, the RCC use to teach: The RCC is The One True Church.

But now the RCC officially teach: The RCC is a True Church. – NOT The One True Church.

Documentation of this change?

 

[JustaServant]

I don’t know the date when it happened.
The RCC realized, their One True Church position is incorrect and the RCC abandoned The One True Church position and now teach, the members of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches are God’s children/elect and their Churches are True Churches as well.

This is grossly incorrect.

 

[Wannano]

I am not directly referring to your post alone, just using it to enter the thread.

All the talk about who gets to be a true church or not reminds me of the disciples arguing who gets to be greater right after they were given the Last Supper. (Which is really quite interesting if Peter was already the Pope.) Human reasoning never seems to change!

 

[PJM]

No PJM! You do not need to defend that statement from Rinnie just because he/she identifies as Catholic. That is beyond even you. As much as I respect you!

Does the Catholic Church need the Bible? By defending that post you are literally nullifying half your Catechism sources. You are nullifying the three legs of the “Gospel”, as you should know, Sacred scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium? You are nullifying half the Mass, the readings and make it all pointless. 90% of your posts that I ever read would be pointless without the Bible! We can have some fancy linguistics here but you know what I mean. And I really ask you not to come with a special explanation of what he/she meant. Take it at what it meant, the Bible is not needed. This is very much a contradiction to Catholicism. I sincerely hope you see this as I do respect you.

Please, let us keep a common ground here.

Regards

OK

And WHY is THAT?

I might of worded it differently, BUT the sediments are true in and of themselves

The Bible is a book of the RCC, “The RCC birthed the bible”

The Bible did NOT “birth” or create the RCC, which was in existence for about 70 year before the bible was fully authored.

It was the 1st Catholic Christians [the TERM Catholic being applied in about 105 AD] that choose the 46 OT books to be included in the HS Inspired Bible

Then is was the Early Catholic-Christians who AUTHORED the entire NT Inspiried by that same HS & its 27 books

In a literal sense.sense GOD did not “HAVE TO” provide us with the bible

Rinnie’s POINT that it is the RCC, not the bible that effects the Seven Sacraments all Instituted by Christ is correct.

The Bible provides the verification for the veracity of our Catholics beliefs and practices, either precisely or implied through the Power of the Keys in Mt 16:18-19 & and the COMMAND by Jesus [direct, precise and exclusively to & though HIS Apostles and their necessary successors [Mt 10:1-8 compared to Mt 28:18-20]

BUT GOD could have accomplished the task of teaching in a different manner. After all, he did so largely in the OT for 2,000 years

Like YOU, we Catholics are extremely grateful for the bible; while recognizing that it’s existence at the same time has been the fertile ground for the multiplicity of non-catholic- churches; EACH with their OWN set of faith beliefs.

Please share what I’m missing in you’re opinion.

GBY my friend and THANKS fr sharing!

Patrick

 

[LatinRight]

Documentation of this change?

God bless Son of Niall,

Before CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc. was The One True Church position.

I’m sure you know those Papal declarations as well.

I read them many times in the CAF.

**In the past when the RCC position was: There is no salvation outside the RCC, legally/officially the RCC had The One True Church position.

THE RESULTS OF THE ONE TRUE CHURCH POSITION OF THE RCC **

Every member of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches are false Christians/Reprobates, and reprobates made up the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox heretical Churches and all their members predestined to hell. – Unavoidable results of The One True Church position of the RCC.

CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc. changed The One True Church position of the RCC.

One cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accept them with respect and affection as brothers. …

All who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore right to be called Christians. …

Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church. …

**SUM UP OF CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc.

The Roman Catholic Church affirms:
The members of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches are True Christians.**

True Christians are the True Churches.

At the point of the affirmation of CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc. The RCC One True Church position changed to a True Church position.

As the True Christians are the True Churches, the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches at the point of the affirmation of CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc. become True Churches.

From this point on the RCC, Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, Churches are all True Churches and the Catholic (Universal) Church is The One True Church.

As True Churches, the RCC, Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches are all parts of it.

From CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc. can be no other way!

CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc. made the RCC, Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, Churches True Churches.

**The Catholic (Universal) Church is The One True Church.

There is no other way from the declaration of CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc.**

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[PJM]

God bless PJM,

I’m sorry it seems like I still didn’t explain clear enough that the RCC is a True Church but not The One True Church.

As follows in a different and simple way I explain it again.

In the past, the RCC use to teach: The RCC is The One True Church.

But now the RCC officially teach: The RCC is a True Church. – NOT The One True Church.

AND THE irrefutable evidence of THAT claim is

NOT my friend you’re opinion, but the FACTUAL evidence of your position

I explain you PJM step by step the way the RCC teach that she is a True Church but NOT The One True Church.

My friend, you ONLY provided evidence of YOUR personal opinion of this “fact”; without ANY verifible evidence of it and that is insufficient

In order to understand the reason that the RCC is not The One True Church but a True

Church first we must understand the related teachings of the RCC concerning the issue.

Furthermore, we must clearly understand the following theological terms.

ELECT OF GOD

PREDESTINED TO ADOPTION AS SONS

REPROBATE

BOOK OF LIFE

PREDESTINATION OF THE ELECT

CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc.

OK

So my friend YOU please show US the Catholic verifiable destinations of those terms from a legitimate source

For the most part these terms all seem to have a protestant “ring” to them?

**ONE BY ONE OF THE ABOVE THEOLOGICAL TERMS

ELECT OF GOD**

Eph.1:4-5, etc.;
He chose us to Himself, according to the purpose of His will, before the foundation of the world.

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible?

**Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another Verse, passage or teaching:

Were this even the slightest possibility; [it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or learn Christ Faith”**

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost

PREDESTINED TO ADOPTION AS SONS

Eph.1:4-5, etc.;
He chose us to Himself, according to the purpose of His will, predestined to adoption as sons before the foundation of the world

1 I explained why PREDESTINATION is an IMPOSSIBILITY for God in a prior post. PLEASE go back and reread that information.

Such denies God’s need to be Perfect
God IS ALL good things PERFECTED

So we ask are being “fair & just” good things? YES they are; so we CAN know that God in an absolute sense HAS TO BE fair & Just; hence predestination is morally and theologically impssible for God in order to BE GOD

REPROBATE
For their vehement rejection of God and His grace they all end up in hell

My friend YOUR private- interpretation of the Catholic Bible is NOT evidence of your position. PLEASE provide TRUE, verifible Catholic Church teaching to back up your BASE theme.

BOOK OF LIFE

God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taking out the names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace and as the results they all end up in hell.

"COMPLETED?"

NO! The BOL ONLY proves that our all knowing GOD KNOWS whose name is going to be in BASED upon THEIR mind, intellect & FREEWILL life choices. GOD"S pre-knowledge which I Do accept is NOT “predstination”

Heb 6:10 & Rev 2:23

From the completion, the Book of life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

-QUOTE]AMEN!

When I studied RCC teachings on this issue, at that time I realized how wrong I was. – The names of the reprobates taken out from the Book of life **NOT in our time but before the foundation of the world.

At that time I realized a God’s child/elect cannot lose salvation.**

PLEASE reread what I have just shared above

GBY my friend

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Continuation

2 POST

**BECAUSE OF LENGTH THIS REPLY OF MINE WILL BE IN **

My friend, ARE YOU actually reading what I have previously posted?

PREDESTINATION OF THE ELECT

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE ***Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

OK then provide the evidence of SAME, outside of your personal bible interpretationn:shrug:

From Fr Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary [Fr was one of the 20th Centuries foremost theologians & a nd a mentor of mine]

PREDESTINATION. In the widest sense it is every eternal decision of God; in a narrower sense it is the supernatural final destination of rational creatures; and in the strictest sense it is God’s eternal decision to assume certain rational creatures into heavenly glory. Predestination implies an act of the divine intellect and of the divine will. The first is foreknowledge, the second is predestination.

According to its efficacy in time, predestination is distinguished as incomplete or complete depending on whether it is to grace only or also to glory. Complete predestination is the divine preparation of grace in the present life and of glory in the life to come.

This doctrine is proposed by the ordinary and universal teaching of the Church as a truth of revelation. The reality of predestination is clearly attested by St. Paul: “They are the ones he chose especially long ago and intended to become true images of the Son, so that his Son, might be the eldest of many brothers. He called those he intended for this; those he called he justified and with those he justified he shared his glory.” (Romans 8:29-30). All elements of complete predestination are given: the activity of God’s mind and will, and the principal stages of its realization in time.

The main difficulty in the doctrine of predestination is whether God’s eternal decision has been taken with or without consideration of human freedom. Catholic teaching holds that predestination by God does not deny the human free will. Numerous theories have been offered on how to reconcile the two, but all admit with St. Paul (Romans 11:33) that predestination is an unfathomable mystery. (Etym. Latin praedestinatio, a determining beforehand.)

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc.

**We’ve covered THIS ground before Like the Bible, no teaching CAN or DOES override or negate OTHER Catechism teachings. SEE 1261, 846-848 **

All who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore right to be called Christians.

OK, agreed BUT THAT does NOT make them members of the RCC NOR does it make THEIR freely chosen faith beliefs equal to Catholicism.

Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.

…

MEANING ONLY that we ALL claim to believe in the SAME Triune GOD. See the Catechism reference I quoted above.

**SUM UP OF CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc.

The Roman Catholic Church affirms:
The Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, etc. Churches are True Churches.**

By IMPLICATION here you mean to say on an equal footing; on a PAR in thier faith beliefs with Catholicism. Such is IMPOSSIBLE morally and theologically. And NOT part of Catholic Teaching.

To clearly understand the issue of The One True Church position and a True Church position we must understand:

In the past when the RCC position was: There is no salvation outside the RCC, legally/officially the RCC had The One True Church position

**AND THIS WAS BECAUSE until TRENT the ONLY Christians were the RCC & the Orthodox with direst Apostolic succession.

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.**

Mandated NOT a change in the Doctrine; RATHER only a fuller understanding of WHAT THAT Doctrine means in view of the undesired, unwanted and unneeded Protestant reformation

END OF REPLY pt 1 of 2

 

[PJM]

**TO; LatinRight
**
START of MY REPLY pt 2 of 2

THE RESULTS OF THE ONE TRUE CHURCH POSITION OF THE RCC

Every member of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches are false Christians/Reprobates, and reprobates made up the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox heretical Churches and all their members predestined to hell. – Unavoidable results of The One True Church position of the RCC.

PLEASE reread what I JUST shared above

I don’t know the date when it happened.
The RCC realized, their One True Church position is incorrect and the RCC abandoned The One True Church position and now teach, the members of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches are God’s children/elect and their Churches are True Churches as well.

**Post TRENT

& NO!

The foundations Doctrine has been expanded in its understanding to CONDITIONALLY
CCC 1260, 846-848 acknowledge that POSSIBILITY [not the “fact”] that Christians & even non-christian s MIGHT Conditionally attain their salvation under precise circumstances.

FURTHER ALL Salvation continues to FLOW mysteriously through the RCC**

unavoidable

result was the end of The One True Church position and the RCC adopted a True Church position (CCC 818, CCC 819, CCC 1271, etc). – This change of position is the teaching of the RCC and we must accept it

That friend is YOU’RE personal understanding, NOT that of the RCC

In reality it is not hard to accept this change of position

Agreed, Not “Hard” but IMPOSSIBLE.

The large majority of Catholic believes there is salvation in the Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches.

Ok BUT HIGHLY and precisely TAUGHT Conditionally

Catechism site

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Pls look up #'s 1260, 846-848

**Do you understand Patrick the above change of the RCC position?

If you understand, you know the RCC is a True Church and you also know the reason that the RCC is a True Church, instead of The One True Church.**

**Yes I Do

You my friend is the one having trouble with i**t:shrug:

God bless,

LatinRight

And may our God Bless and Guide you also

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Perfect example of what I just said. Please show me where the RCC ever said what you are trying to make it say. The RCC has alway and will always accept any truth of any Church. The RCC said that while these Church’s have truth they do not have the FULLNESS of truth. Said it and meant it.

Please tell me were the RCC every said that these Church’s you named are the one truth Church. Because the teaching of the RCC is unless this Church’s have the fullness of truth they are not the ONE TRUE CHURCH. IT must have 4 marks. Do these Church’s you mentioned have Mark number one Apostolic Succession, Are they ONE in teaching, Is it Holy and it is Catholic. If not you have not got the fullness of truth.

ANOTHER GREAT REPLY:thumbsup:

GBY
and THANKS

Patrick

 

[PJM]

quote
Originally Posted by MichaelP3 View Post
Good day Rinnie

There is a reason I never responded to you.

I would advise you to read your own Catechism (as I have, very thoroughly) and maybe respond to the same questions I asked PJM. I do not know anything about you (meaning no previous posts to go upon). You could be a good person to converse with, but the nature of your posts claim otherwise.

Regards end quote

the REPLY

Could you show me one thing that PJM said that is in direct conflict with what the RCC teaches. Now please don’t do scripture with scripture, until you look up what the RCC teaches that scripture means. Again personal revelation on either part do us know good.

PJM usually is in spot on with what the Church teaches. Now of course as PJM will admit we have all been called on things we said, and of course it was either our on misunderstanding of the Church teaching or our own revelation, and have admitted our wrong. But have learned to try to always stay in context with the Church teachings.

And we always recant if we are in conflict with the Church. That is how and why God left us the Church and not the bible so we are of one mind and one truth.

SO FRIEND PLEASE HELP ME OUT HERE?

WHAT WAS THE QUESTION I FAILED TO RESPOND TOO:shrug:

Thanks and BY you both!

Patrick [the OP]

 

[PJM]

quote Originally Posted by LatinRight View Post
God bless PJM,

In the past, the RCC use to teach: The RCC is The One True Church.

But now the RCC officially teach: The RCC is a True Church. – NOT The One True Church.
end quote

THE REPLY

Documentation of this change?

My insert [PJM]

Are you asking ME [PJM] or LatinRight

I AGREE with you and have been asking for the very same evidence

In a recent post LainRight finally provided what He understands [incorrectly] some “evidence” which I took pains to respond to 1 or 2 POST above the reply in 2 PARTS

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

The RCC never condemned anyone to hell. The teaching was and aways will be There is no Salvation outside of the RCC. People took this and ran with it and made it say what they wanted it to say for years.

The Teaching of the RCC is and always has been that Jesus Christ and his Church are one. The RCC has always taught that the RCC is the FULLNESS of truth. We have always accepted truth in all faiths. But also know only one has the fullness of truth.

Years ago before Protestant Churchs existed there was only one teaching and one Church so they understood that there is no Salvation outside of Christ, and knew that the RCC and Christ are one.

If the RCC said there is no Salvation outside of Jesus Christ there would be no arguing with Christians. Which is what the Church was saying and has always said. But because Protestant faiths do not understand as we do in the Church that they are one, they try to make the Church say something they never said.

The true teaching is and will always be there is no salvation outside of the RCC which is one with Christ. Again people do anything to pick the Church apart, or try to accuse them to change a Teaching, which will never happen. They said it and mean it. IF a Christian can show us that Christ and his true Church are not one prove it. Because that is what he taught us. If they can prove Christ is not one with the RCC again prove it. Because we have Apostolic teachings that prove it.

Hmmmmmm

That is not entirely correct

While ALL SALVATION flows through the RCC as the ONLY Church founded, guided and protected by BOTH the HS and Jesus Himself; POST TRENT holds out the POSSIBILITY in a highly and precisely CONDITIONAL manner that there MIGHT BE, could be CONDITIONALLY salvation Outside BUT still THROUGH the RCC

**Please loom uo from our Catechism #'s 1260 & 846-848

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm**

GBY

LOVR you’re POST

THANKS

Patrick

 

[LatinRight]

2 POST

**BECAUSE OF LENGTH THIS REPLY OF MINE WILL BE IN **

OK then provide the evidence of SAME, outside of your personal bible interpretationn:shrug:

From Fr Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary [Fr was one of the 20th Centuries foremost theologians & a nd a mentor of mine]

PREDESTINATION. In the widest sense it is every eternal decision of God; in a narrower sense it is the supernatural final destination of rational creatures; and in the strictest sense it is God’s eternal decision to assume certain rational creatures into heavenly glory. Predestination implies an act of the divine intellect and of the divine will. The first is foreknowledge, the second is predestination.

According to its efficacy in time, predestination is distinguished as incomplete or complete depending on whether it is to grace only or also to glory. Complete predestination is the divine preparation of grace in the present life and of glory in the life to come.

This doctrine is proposed by the ordinary and universal teaching of the Church as a truth of revelation. The reality of predestination is clearly attested by St. Paul: “They are the ones he chose especially long ago and intended to become true images of the Son, so that his Son, might be the eldest of many brothers. He called those he intended for this; those he called he justified and with those he justified he shared his glory.” (Romans 8:29-30). All elements of complete predestination are given: the activity of God’s mind and will, and the principal stages of its realization in time.

The main difficulty in the doctrine of predestination is whether God’s eternal decision has been taken with or without consideration of human freedom. Catholic teaching holds that predestination by God does not deny the human free will. Numerous theories have been offered on how to reconcile the two, but all admit with St. Paul (Romans 11:33) that predestination is an unfathomable mystery. (Etym. Latin praedestinatio, a determining beforehand.)

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Latin Right:
Has it ever occurred to you that the LENGTH of your posts, the font, the sizing and color choices are not good ways of getting people to read them?

 

[rinnie]

Hmmmmmm

That is not entirely correct

While ALL SALVATION flows through the RCC as the ONLY Church founded, guided and protected by BOTH the HS and Jesus Himself; POST TRENT holds out the POSSIBILITY in a highly and precisely CONDITIONAL manner that there MIGHT BE, could be CONDITIONALLY salvation Outside BUT still THROUGH the RCC

**Please loom uo from our Catechism #'s 1260 & 846-848

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm**

GBY

LOVR you’re POST

THANKS

Patrick

Sorry buddy but I must disagree with you. As I stated earlier All Salvation comes through the RCC, if that statement is taken within the context it was stated, the RCC and Jesus Christ are the same thing. Because Jesus said he and his Church were one, the same as the bridegroom and the bride are united to one, so is Christ and his Church.

With that said, I am not saying that if a person does not go to the RCC that they cannot go to heaven, and the RCC has never said that.

So for anyone no matter who they are are to take that sentence and understand that statement as it was meant to mean when it was said, it says 2 things 2 different ways, but the same exact thing.

All Salvation comes through the RCC.
All Salvation comes through Jesus Christ.

So for the RCC to deny that statement, which they never would, they would have to say all Salvation does NOT come from Jesus Christ, and they will never ever say that.

Again this statement taken within the context as it was stated back then still rings true, and will never be denied.

 

[rinnie]

Hmmmmmm

That is not entirely correct

While ALL SALVATION flows through the RCC as the ONLY Church founded, guided and protected by BOTH the HS and Jesus Himself; POST TRENT holds out the POSSIBILITY in a highly and precisely CONDITIONAL manner that there MIGHT BE, could be CONDITIONALLY salvation Outside BUT still THROUGH the RCC

**Please loom uo from our Catechism #'s 1260 & 846-848

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm**

GBY

LOVR you’re POST

THANKS

Patrick

The problem here is people as seeing the RCC as a Church and building, which I think you are seeing it here. Again define RCC not a church it is Christ himself.

With this said we are taught anyone can go to heaven, protestant, Jew, even a person who never goes to Church.

God is everywhere and does not put limits on whom he choose to give his grace and work through.

All salvation comes from Christ, only he knows a heart. The Pope said that as long as you live your life to the best of your knowledge and you use the grace given to you, you will be fine.

All we can do is live our life and be kind and help oneanother and love oneanother and thank God for letting you see what you are given the grace to see. BUt we cannot blame others for what is not given.