WHY do you [if you do?] think the RCC is not the One true Church founded by Christ?

[LatinRight]

Latin Right:
Has it ever occurred to you that the LENGTH of your posts, the font, the sizing and color choices are not good ways of getting people to read them?

God bless Son of Niall,

I understand your concern, but I have to confess:

I never did font sizing, I never added colors into my posts and colored texts added to my posts on the quotes.

Please see my original posts # 278, # 279.

There is no font sizing and no colors there.

Sometimes I do more then one posts some subjects but I always try to keep my posts reasonable sizes.

God Bless,

LatinRight

 

[Wannano]

Latin Right:
Has it ever occurred to you that the LENGTH of your posts, the font, the sizing and color choices are not good ways of getting people to read them?

In defense of Latin Right I would point out that his own posts are not comprised of size and color etc., that is contained in his posts from quoting another posters gobbledygook.

 

[MichaelP3]

OK

And WHY is THAT?

I might of worded it differently, BUT the sediments are true in and of themselves

The Bible is a book of the RCC, “The RCC birthed the bible”

The Bible did NOT “birth” or create the RCC, which was in existence for about 70 year before the bible was fully authored.

It was the 1st Catholic Christians [the TERM Catholic being applied in about 105 AD] that choose the 46 OT books to be included in the HS Inspired Bible

Then is was the Early Catholic-Christians who AUTHORED the entire NT Inspiried by that same HS & its 27 books

In a literal sense.sense GOD did not “HAVE TO” provide us with the bible

Rinnie’s POINT that it is the RCC, not the bible that effects the Seven Sacraments all Instituted by Christ is correct.

The Bible provides the verification for the veracity of our Catholics beliefs and practices, either precisely or implied through the Power of the Keys in Mt 16:18-19 & and the COMMAND by Jesus [direct, precise and exclusively to & though HIS Apostles and their necessary successors [Mt 10:1-8 compared to Mt 28:18-20]

BUT GOD could have accomplished the task of teaching in a different manner. After all, he did so largely in the OT for 2,000 years

Like YOU, we Catholics are extremely grateful for the bible; while recognizing that it’s existence at the same time has been the fertile ground for the multiplicity of non-catholic- churches; EACH with their OWN set of faith beliefs.

Please share what I’m missing in you’re opinion.

GBY my friend and THANKS fr sharing!

Patrick

quote
Originally Posted by MichaelP3 View Post
Good day Rinnie

There is a reason I never responded to you.

I would advise you to read your own Catechism (as I have, very thoroughly) and maybe respond to the same questions I asked PJM. I do not know anything about you (meaning no previous posts to go upon). You could be a good person to converse with, but the nature of your posts claim otherwise.

Regards end quote

the REPLY

SO FRIEND PLEASE HELP ME OUT HERE?

WHAT WAS THE QUESTION I FAILED TO RESPOND TOO:shrug:

Thanks and BY you both!

Patrick [the OP]

Good day PJM

I see you started of with some other controversial statements that could be another discussion, but let’s say that is true for the moment being. Where the Bible come from is also not really relevant here, though I see our discussion will be going there now since you brought it up. But I will hope for the moment, we will keep to one subject.

I also see you asked me another question about you not answering something. This is not what I meant, you always try to answer all questions “interestingly” using the Bible. So yes, in the past, you have always tried to answer ALL questions in that way. I rather asked Rinnie to reply to those specifics rather then run around them (as is still the case).

Since then you did reply to me in the post I quoted, but still very much failing to respond to those.

Firstly, if you do agree with that statement, I would ask you why you ever even use the Bible in your replies to basically everyone on this forum? As currently every post and your reason I have ever read is falling apart.

Secondly, half your Catechism uses the Bible as a source. Why would this be the case? Else just state the Holy Spirit as the source and there is no confusion.

Your own Church has 3 EQUAL legs of authority. Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. This is not my opinion, this is the Catholic belief. Explain this to me?

Why prolong the mass with readings if the sacraments and “day of obligation” would be fulfilled otherwise?

Those are the questions you did not answer in the latest post. I ask to explain your position in light of this and not use scripture to explain the statement “the Bible is not needed” which was my problem in the first place.

I really hope you do not feel this way as I always enjoyed your posts, but if that is your position on the Bible (considering they always contain tons of scripture), I will have no choice but to skip them in this case.

Regards

 

[steve_b]

No, it is not.

Prove it

 

[steve_b]

I never said they were not Christian.

Re: fellow Christians, as a broad category, of the validly baptized

Then

• all heretics by definition (due to valid baptism) are fellow Christians as well.
• if one is not validly baptized they can’t be considered a heretic for their beliefs
• all schismatics by definition are fellow Christians (if they are validly baptized)

Does the Catholic Church then say it is okay for one to be in division/schism/ heresy?

 

[PJM]

God bless PJM,

I’m sorry it seems like I still didn’t explain clear enough that the RCC is a True Church but not The One True Church.

When I studied RCC teachings on this issue, at that time I realized how wrong I was. – The names of the reprobates taken out from the Book of life **NOT in our time but before the foundation of the world.

At that time I realized a God’s child/elect cannot lose salvation**.

Friend LatinRight

You have chosen to identify yourself as a [recent] Catholic, and seem to also claim some theological authority.

Comments such as the last one above that one’s salvation CANNOT be lost is NOT a teaching of the RCC, and ought not be of ANY other faith for that matter.

Because this is a PUBLIC Catholic site, many come here seeking information. You and I have had a prolonged discussion of just what is meant by the ONE TRUE CHURCH, so for your edification as well as that of those who may be interested, I have culled some quotes from the CATECHISM OF TRENT

Please accept this in the spirit of Charity & Truth which it s presented

The Catechism of TRENT

**The Catechism of the Council of Trent: New Edition
**

RANDOM QUOTES

But although the Catholic faith uniformly and truly teaches that the good and the bad belong to the Church, yet the same faith declares that the condition of both is very different. The wicked are contained in the Church, as the chaff is mingled with the grain on the threshing floor, or as dead members sometimes remain attached to a living body.

Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church’s pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, . Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not …

The Marks of the Church

"One”
The first mark of the true Church is described in the Nicene Creed, and consists in unity: …“One Lord, one faith,[SET OF FAITH BELIEFS] one baptism.” (Eph. 4.5)

Unity in Government

The Church has but one ruler and one governor, the invisible one, “Christ, whom the eternal Father has made head over all the Church, which is his body” (Eph. 1.22, Col. 1.15); the visible one, the Pope, who, as legitimate successor of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, fills the Apostolic chair.

Lastly, St. Ambrose says: “Because he alone of all of them professed (Christ) he was placed above all.”

Should anyone object that the Church is content with one Head and one Spouse, Jesus Christ, and requires no other, the answer is obvious. For as we deem Christ not only the author of all the Sacraments, but also their invisible minister. …** so has He placed over His Church, which He governs by His invisible Spirit, a man to be His vicar and the minister of His power. **

Unity in Spirit, Hope and Faith

Moreover, the Apostle, writing to the Corinthians, tells them that there is but one and the same Spirit who imparts grace to the faithful, as the soul communicates life to the members of the [ONE] body. Exhorting the Ephesians to preserve this unity, he says: “Be careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace; one body and one Spirit.” (Eph. 4.3) The hope, to which we are called, is also one, as the Apostle tells us in the same place; for we all hope for the same consummation, eternal and happy life. Finally, the faith which all are bound to believe and to profess is one:** Let there be no schisms amongst you, says the Apostle. And Baptism, which is the seal of our Christian faith, is also one. **

“Catholic”
The third mark of the Church is that she is Catholic; that is, universal.

Moreover to this Church, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets**, [Eph 2:20 “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone”]** belong all the faithful who have existed from Adam to the present day, or who shall exist, in the profession of the [ONE] true faith, to the end of time; all of whom are founded and raised upon the one corner-stone, Christ, who made both one, and announced peace to them that are near and to them that are far.” ….

[INSERTED BY PJM" NO “CHURCH” CAN BE SEPARATED FROM IT’S ONE SET OF FAITH BELIEFS]

She is also called universal, because all who desire eternal salvation must cling to and embrace her, like those who entered the ark to escape perishing in the flood.

Apostolic
The [ONE] true Church is also to be recognized from her origin, which can be traced back under the law of grace to the Apostles; for her doctrine is the truth not recently given, nor now first heard of, but delivered of old by the Apostles, and disseminated throughout the entire world. Hence no one can doubt that the impious opinions which heresy invents, opposed as they are to the doctrines taught by the Church from the days of the Apostles to the present time, are very different from the faith of the true Church.

That all, therefore, might know which was the Catholic Church, the Fathers, guided by the Spirit of God, added to the Creed the word Apostolic. For the Holy Ghost, who presides over the Church, governs her by no other ministers than those of Apostolic succession. END QUOTES

PJM

 

[steve_b]

There is a very simple phrase that changes that
**
“once someone knows the truth”**

IOW they are shown the truth properly referenced, and therefore no longer ignorant of the truth. Disagreement or rejection of the truth is not a pass for ignorance.

Also, in this age of unbelievably easy access to information,

1791 Ignorance isn’t always innocent
J:

To talk of the Orthodox in this way is simply polemical and uncharitable when it is done repeatedly and serves no useful end.

I responded to a challenge with references properly referenced, to the challenge.

 

[PJM]

Sorry buddy but I must disagree with you. As I stated earlier All Salvation comes through the RCC, if that statement is taken within the context it was stated, the RCC and Jesus Christ are the same thing. Because Jesus said he and his Church were one, the same as the bridegroom and the bride are united to one, so is Christ and his Church.

With that said, I am not saying that if a person does not go to the RCC that they cannot go to heaven, and the RCC has never said that.

So for anyone no matter who they are are to take that sentence and understand that statement as it was meant to mean when it was said, it says 2 things 2 different ways, but the same exact thing.

All Salvation comes through the RCC.
All Salvation comes through Jesus Christ.

So for the RCC to deny that statement, which they never would, they would have to say all Salvation does NOT come from Jesus Christ, and they will never ever say that.

Again this statement taken within the context as it was stated back then still rings true, and will never be denied.

As explained here, we are in complete agreement

ALL SALVATION MYSTERIOUSNESS FLOWS THROUGH THE RCC as the One and only Church founded, desired, guided and guarded by God.

BUT one in an absolute sense does not HAVE TO be a member of the RCC [precisely-conditionally] in order to be saved.

Catholics however DO have a HUGE advantage through the 7 Sacraments all instituted by Christ for the precise purpose of making our salvation more likely to those who rightly avail themselves of them.

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[PJM]

PJM;14410092:

2 POST

OK then provide the evidence of SAME, outside of your personal bible interpretationn:shrug:

From Fr Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary [Fr was one of the 20th Centuries foremost theologians & a nd a mentor of mine]

PREDESTINATION. In the widest sense it is every eternal decision of God; in a narrower sense it is the supernatural final destination of rational creatures; and in the strictest sense it is God’s eternal decision to assume certain rational creatures into heavenly glory. Predestination implies an act of the divine intellect and of the divine will. The first is foreknowledge, the second is predestination.

According to its efficacy in time, predestination is distinguished as incomplete or complete depending on whether it is to grace only or also to glory. Complete predestination is the divine preparation of grace in the present life and of glory in the life to come.

This doctrine is proposed by the ordinary and universal teaching of the Church as a truth of revelation. The reality of predestination is clearly attested by St. Paul: “They are the ones he chose especially long ago and intended to become true images of the Son, so that his Son, might be the eldest of many brothers. He called those he intended for this; those he called he justified and with those he justified he shared his glory.” (Romans 8:29-30). All elements of complete predestination are given: the activity of God’s mind and will, and the principal stages of its realization in time.

The main difficulty in the doctrine of predestination is whether God’s eternal decision has been taken with or without consideration of human freedom. Catholic teaching holds that predestination by God does not deny the human free will. Numerous theories have been offered on how to reconcile the two, but all admit with St. Paul (Romans 11:33) that predestination is an unfathomable mystery. (Etym. Latin praedestinatio, a determining beforehand.)

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

**We’ve covered THIS ground before Like the Bible, no teaching CAN or DOES override or negate OTHER Catechism teachings. SEE 1261, 846-848 **

OK, agreed BUT THAT does NOT make them members of the RCC NOR does it make THEIR freely chosen faith beliefs equal to Catholicism.

God bless PJM,

I always read carefully your posts

THANK you:thumbsup: And I your’s.

I believe my post # 289 answer most parts of your above post.

It seems to me Patrick you don’t agree most parts of my posts

& WHY my friend do you suppose that is?

Of course we need to progress always in learning, seems like I just need to progress in learning a bit faster then others.

So, I ask some questions from you Patrick and from your answers I can progress faster in learning

1. If an unbeliever ask me:
What should I do to be saved? What should I say?

I would not have a short & brief answer BUT 4U I will try

1 Know God

2 Know Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior

3 Know, accept and live ALL that Jesus teaches through His One True Church

4 IF with GOD as the Judge of the above is literally impossible

Practice Charity extensively: “Do onto others as you would have Do on to you”

5 Do Good & avoid evil

2. What are the differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Catholic (Universal) Church?

They ARE one and the same except for terminology

3. Who are those who are members of the Catholic (Universal) Church?

The answer is all Professed Roman Catholics from all 23 branches of Catholicism.:thumbsup:WHY?

Because NO “church” can be separated from it’s chose set of Faith beliefs. And it is this FACT that is irrefutable.

Perhaps a better question to make your point is
: “WHO ARE CHRISTIANS”?

The answer to that is everyone on whom is bestowed [gifted] Christian Baptism; HOWEVER this does not mean we have a “common church” as we HAVE differing sets of faith beliefs.

God Bless you my friend

Patrick

If possible detailed answers please.

Thanks you in advance.

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[PJM]

The problem here is people as seeing the RCC as a Church and building, which I think you are seeing it here. Again define RCC not a church it is Christ himself.

With this said we are taught anyone can go to heaven, protestant, Jew, even a person who never goes to Church.

God is everywhere and does not put limits on whom he choose to give his grace and work through.

All salvation comes from Christ, only he knows a heart. The Pope said that as long as you live your life to the best of your knowledge and you use the grace given to you, you will be fine.

All we can do is live our life and be kind and help oneanother and love oneanother and thank God for letting you see what you are given the grace to see. BUt we cannot blame others for what is not given.

While I agree with most of what you shared, a clarification seems important

God WILL, because God MUST pass Judgment upon us NOT based on what we choose to know, believe & practice; but rather it will be on what HE has made POSSIBLE for each of to know, live and practice:thumbsup:

Ecclesiasticus 15:18
Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him

God bless you. LOVE your POST!

Patrick

 

[PJM]

God bless Son of Niall,

I understand your concern, but I have to confess:

I never did font sizing, I never added colors into my posts and colored texts added to my posts on the quotes.

Please see my original posts # 278, # 279.

There is no font sizing and no colors there.

Sometimes I do more then one posts some subjects but I always try to keep my posts reasonable sizes.

God Bless,

LatinRight

Perhaps he has you and ME mixed up

I do it regularly and in 13,000+ post have heard the complaint perhaps a dozen times.

I do it for two reasons:

1. Because my post can be lengthy, I try to HIGHLIGHT the more important points

2 Because I personally like color, which to is a Highlight

GBY both

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Good day PJM

I see you started of with some other controversial statements that could be another discussion, but let’s say that is true for the moment being. Where the Bible come from is also not really relevant here, though I see our discussion will be going there now since you brought it up. But I will hope for the moment, we will keep to one subject

Hi Michael; its been awhile since I have been called controversial. I acknowledge that I can be. BTW, I’m the OP of this Thread

BUT what have I shared about the bible being a Catholic book that is debatable?

1 It was the Early Catholic Fathers who selected guided by the HS the 66 OT books to be included

2 It was the Early CC Fathers who authored the ENTIRE NT’s 27 books

I also see you asked me another question about you not answering something. This is not what I meant, you always try to answer all questions “interestingly” using the Bible. So yes, in the past, you have always tried to answer ALL questions in that way. I rather asked Rinnie to reply to those specifics rather then run around them (as is still the case)

OK thanks

Since then you did reply to me in the post I quoted, but still very much failing to respond to those.

Firstly, if you do agree with that statement, I would ask you why you ever even use the Bible in your replies to basically everyone on this forum? As currently every post and your reason I have ever read is falling apart

GREAT question

1 Because the bible IS the Inspired Word of our God & this is a Catholic Forum 2 Tim 3:16-17] Amen!

2 Because the veracity of its use is easily verifiable

3 Because I so often am dialoging with non-catholic-christian s, many of whom are taught that **Sola Scriptura **is a valid reference point. It’s not, but that is off topic.

4 I do employ other references as well when I feel the need too

Secondly, half your Catechism uses the Bible as a source. Why would this be the case? Else just state the Holy Spirit as the source and there is no confusion.

Because as I assert the Bible Is a Catholic, 2,000 year old book that has proven worthy over the test of time & for the reasons I noted above in #1

Your own Church has 3 EQUAL legs of authority. Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. This is not my opinion, this is the Catholic belief. Explain this to me?

Very good Michael:thumbsup:

“SS” is the bible which we have already addressed

“ST” is absolutely essential for several reasons

1 The OT bible dates back some 4,000 years to a time when literacy was rare, and writing implements were scarce and costly, so Word of Mouth through stories was the most common and effective way to preserve their history and practices, and beliefs.

2 As John 20 and 21 teach us in the final 2 verses in both chapters; not everything is recorded in the bible; logically and practically, so Traditions had and have an important part in our beliefs & practices. …**“WHEN IN DOUBT go back and look at what the Early Fathers taught & believed”**The Magisterium [from Father Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary:

MAGISTERIUM. The Church’s teaching authority, vested in the bishops, as successors of the Apostles, under the Roman Pontiff, as successor of St. Peter. Also vested in the Pope, as Vicar of Christ and visible head of the Catholic Church. (Etym. Latin magister, master.)

This is a recent theological term that means the Pope is the “first among equals”

The Magisterium consist of all Bishops throughout the world that align themselves with Sacred Tradition and the Pope in UNION with what is taught & defined as mandatory beliefs {dogma & doctrine} as being protected, guided and guarded by God Himself.

Why prolong the mass with readings if the sacraments and “day of obligation” would be fulfilled otherwise?

Michael,I’m not entirely clear of this question? As I read it its very profound

The Bible can be understood to be sort of an Owners manual; and How to do it and WHY book of instructions when rightly understood.

Further we hold that it is literally GOD’S WORDS to us. What God desires US to know; live and share. Not dictated, but FULLY inspired, whereby the authors were LEAD by God to include all the messages & teachings God deemed essential for one’s possible salvation. Many of which require “expert” translations to be fully grasped.

The 7 sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Confession, Holy Orders, Marriage, and the Last rites; are all Instituted by Jesus Christ as a source of His Grace.

Grace is an essential element of one;'s possible salvation. Thus we Catholics have a HUGE advantage over all other sets of faith beliefs. The KEY is that God’s grace is a FREE gift from God, who determined who is offered what, and when it is offered.

The 7 Sacraments standout as an exception to this, insofar as it is WE, who initiate the flow of these Graces. The amount of grace is highly conditional on form, matter and the right :mind set"; & only God can determine the AMOUNT of grace to be offered; STILL it is mortal man who starts the process.

The Mass is the "Summit to which ALL of the other sacraments take their lead. The Eucharist is, REALLY, Truly and Substantially Jesus Christ Himself in Person.

So the Bible reading and it’s RIGHT explanation teaches us our Faith; while the Mass makes it more possible, through grace, for us to Understand, accept, live, and share our beautiful Catholic faith

END OF part 1 of 2 for MY REPLY

 

[PJM]

START of pt 2 of my reply to Michael

So BOTH are ways and means of meeting and interfacing with on God on a direct and very personal manner.

To “Keep holy the Sabbath day” is a Commandment from GOD, for our benefit, not His.

Those are the questions you did not answer in the latest post. I ask to explain your position in light of this and not use scripture to explain the statement “the Bible is not needed” which was my problem in the first place

While literally true, GOD could have chosen a different way; BUT he didn’t

God is our Creator, and we exist to know, love, serve and OBEY Him. God didn’t ask our opinion; he COMMANDED what we do believe and practice; and that knowledge stems in great part from HIS Bible…

I really hope you do not feel this way as I always enjoyed your posts, but if that is your position on the Bible (considering they always contain tons of scripture), I will have no choice but to skip them in this case

**Michael WHY the aversion to the bible? **

Thank you so very much for asking these questions,

Pray MUCH my friend!

GBY

Patrick

 

[MichaelP3]

Hi Michael; its been awhile since I have been called controversial. I acknowledge that I can be. BTW, I’m the OP of this Thread

BUT what have I shared about the bible being a Catholic book that is debatable?

1 It was the Early Catholic Fathers who selected guided by the HS the 66 OT books to be included

2 It was the Early CC Fathers who authored the ENTIRE NT’s 27 books

OK thanks

GREAT question

1 Because the bible IS the Inspired Word of our God & this is a Catholic Forum 2 Tim 3:16-17] Amen!

2 Because the veracity of its use is easily verifiable

3 Because I so often am dialoging with non-catholic-christian s, many of whom are taught that **Sola Scriptura **is a valid reference point. It’s not, but that is off topic.

4 I do employ other references as well when I feel the need too

Because as I assert the Bible Is a Catholic, 2,000 year old book that has proven worthy over the test of time & for the reasons I noted above in #1

Very good Michael:thumbsup:

“SS” is the bible which we have already addressed

“ST” is absolutely essential for several reasons

1 The OT bible dates back some 4,000 years to a time when literacy was rare, and writing implements were scarce and costly, so Word of Mouth through stories was the most common and effective way to preserve their history and practices, and beliefs.

2 As John 20 and 21 teach us in the final 2 verses in both chapters; not everything is recorded in the bible; logically and practically, so Traditions had and have an important part in our beliefs & practices. …**“WHEN IN DOUBT go back and look at what the Early Fathers taught & believed”**The Magisterium [from Father Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary:

MAGISTERIUM. The Church’s teaching authority, vested in the bishops, as successors of the Apostles, under the Roman Pontiff, as successor of St. Peter. Also vested in the Pope, as Vicar of Christ and visible head of the Catholic Church. (Etym. Latin magister, master.)

This is a recent theological term that means the Pope is the “first among equals”

The Magisterium consist of all Bishops throughout the world that align themselves with Sacred Tradition and the Pope in UNION with what is taught & defined as mandatory beliefs {dogma & doctrine} as being protected, guided and guarded by God Himself.

Michael,I’m not entirely clear of this question? As I read it its very profound

The Bible can be understood to be sort of an Owners manual; and How to do it and WHY book of instructions when rightly understood.

Further we hold that it is literally GOD’S WORDS to us. What God desires US to know; live and share. Not dictated, but FULLY inspired, whereby the authors were LEAD by God to include all the messages & teachings God deemed essential for one’s possible salvation. Many of which require “expert” translations to be fully grasped.

The 7 sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Confession, Holy Orders, Marriage, and the Last rites; are all Instituted by Jesus Christ as a source of His Grace.

Grace is an essential element of one;'s possible salvation. Thus we Catholics have a HUGE advantage over all other sets of faith beliefs. The KEY is that God’s grace is a FREE gift from God, who determined who is offered what, and when it is offered.

The 7 Sacraments standout as an exception to this, insofar as it is WE, who initiate the flow of these Graces. The amount of grace is highly conditional on form, matter and the right :mind set"; & only God can determine the AMOUNT of grace to be offered; STILL it is mortal man who starts the process.

The Mass is the "Summit to which ALL of the other sacraments take their lead. The Eucharist is, REALLY, Truly and Substantially Jesus Christ Himself in Person.

So the Bible reading and it’s RIGHT explanation teaches us our Faith; while the Mass makes it more possible, through grace, for us to Understand, accept, live, and share our beautiful Catholic faith

END OF part 1 of 2 for MY REPLY

START of pt 2 of my reply to Michael

So BOTH are ways and means of meeting and interfacing with on God on a direct and very personal manner.

To “Keep holy the Sabbath day” is a Commandment from GOD, for our benefit, not His.

While literally true, GOD could have chosen a different way; BUT he didn’t

God is our Creator, and we exist to know, love, serve and OBEY Him. God didn’t ask our opinion; he COMMANDED what we do believe and practice; and that knowledge stems in great part from HIS Bible…

**Michael WHY the aversion to the bible? **

Thank you so very much for asking these questions,

Pray MUCH my friend!

GBY

Patrick

It’s pretty late here so I will and can respond to that in due time.

The main thing still not addressed/answered would be, do you consider the Bible needed in light of those questions. From a Catholic view it seems obvious but you seem to work around it. You responded quite well from a Catholic viewpoint but still did not answer that. I write this rather out of sadness as I respected your posts, if you do not believe the Bible is needed, our common ground becomes meaningless. I do not refer to Sola Scriptura or anything a Catholic would consider extreme. Purely, “IS the Bible needed”? You seem to say yes and no. It’s a simple question that needs to be answered.

Regards
[/quote]

 

[LatinRight]

Originally Posted by LatinRight to PJM,

God bless PJM,

I’m sorry it seems like I still didn’t explain clear enough that the RCC is a True Church but not The One True Church.

When I studied RCC teachings on this issue (Book of Life), at that time I realized how wrong I was. – The names of the reprobates taken out from the Book of life NOT in our time but before the foundation of the world.

At that time I realized a God’s child/elect cannot lose salvation.

Friend LatinRight

Comments such as the last one above that one’s salvation CANNOT be lost is NOT a teaching of the RCC, and ought not be of ANY other faith for that matter.

Because this is a PUBLIC Catholic site, many come here seeking information. You and I have had a prolonged discussion of just what is meant by the ONE TRUE CHURCH, so for your edification as well as that of those who may be interested, I have culled some quotes from the CATECHISM OF TRENT

Please accept this in the spirit of Charity & Truth which it s presented

The Catechism of TRENT

**The Catechism of the Council of Trent: New Edition
**

RANDOM QUOTES

But although the Catholic faith uniformly and truly teaches that the good and the bad belong to the Church, yet the same faith declares that the condition of both is very different. The wicked are contained in the Church, as the chaff is mingled with the grain on the threshing floor, or as dead members sometimes remain attached to a living body.

Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church’s pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, . Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not …

The Marks of the Church

"One”
The first mark of the true Church is described in the Nicene Creed, and consists in unity: …“One Lord, one faith,[SET OF FAITH BELIEFS] one baptism.” (Eph. 4.5)

Unity in Government

The Church has but one ruler and one governor, the invisible one, “Christ, whom the eternal Father has made head over all the Church, which is his body” (Eph. 1.22, Col. 1.15); the visible one, the Pope, who, as legitimate successor of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, fills the Apostolic chair.

Lastly, St. Ambrose says: “Because he alone of all of them professed (Christ) he was placed above all.”

Should anyone object that the Church is content with one Head and one Spouse, Jesus Christ, and requires no other, the answer is obvious. For as we deem Christ not only the author of all the Sacraments, but also their invisible minister. …** so has He placed over His Church, which He governs by His invisible Spirit, a man to be His vicar and the minister of His power. **

Unity in Spirit, Hope and Faith

Moreover, the Apostle, writing to the Corinthians, tells them that there is but one and the same Spirit who imparts grace to the faithful, as the soul communicates life to the members of the [ONE] body. Exhorting the Ephesians to preserve this unity, he says: “Be careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace; one body and one Spirit.” (Eph. 4.3) The hope, to which we are called, is also one, as the Apostle tells us in the same place; for we all hope for the same consummation, eternal and happy life. Finally, the faith which all are bound to believe and to profess is one:** Let there be no schisms amongst you, says the Apostle. And Baptism, which is the seal of our Christian faith, is also one. **

“Catholic”
The third mark of the Church is that she is Catholic; that is, universal.

[INSERTED BY PJM" NO “CHURCH” CAN BE SEPARATED FROM IT’S ONE SET OF FAITH BELIEFS]

She is also called universal, because all who desire eternal salvation must cling to and embrace her, like those who entered the ark to escape perishing in the flood.

That all, therefore, might know which was the Catholic Church, the Fathers, guided by the Spirit of God, added to the Creed the word Apostolic. For the Holy Ghost, who presides over the Church, governs her by no other ministers than those of Apostolic succession. END QUOTES
PJM

God bless PJM,

This was my last comment on my previous post as follows:

“At that time I realized a God’s child/elect cannot lose salvation.”

Let’s see what went wrong and you didn’t believe it:

I said in my last comment:** “A God’s child/elect cannot lose salvation.”**

And you Patrick used long post to prove: “A God’s child can lose salvation.”

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

What went wrong?

What went wrong is: You didn’t understand my THEOLOGICAL TERM.

My theological term was: GOD’S CHILD/ELECT.

Your theological term was: GOD’S CHILD.

According to **the DE FIDE Dogma of the RCC: A GOD’S CHILD/ELECT cannot lose salvation.

According to the RCC and TRENT: A GOD’S CHILD can lose salvation.

As we see above we have spoken about two different theological terms, GOD’S CHILD/ELECT and GOD’S CHILD, the two are not the same in RCC theology. – We must always keep in mind we speaking about COD’S CHILD/ELECT or GOD’S CHILD.

Furthermore we not only have to know the theological terms (GOD’S CHILD/ELECT or GOD’S CHILD) we speak about, we also must know the teachings of the RCC about those theological terms.

In our previous posts the reason we didn’t understand each other because we have spoken different theological terms and we didn’t realized it and we didn’t even know the teachings of the RCC about those theological terms.

In my future posts I will clearly explain my theological terms.

I will also clearly explain the teachings of the RCC on those theological terms.

And hopefully we will both see the clear teachings of the RCC concerning the subject that the RCC is a True Church or The One True Church.

First we must know **the theological terms related to the subject **and the RCC teachings on those theological terms.

ANOTHER SUBJECT

A quote from your post You said Patrick:
“You have chosen to identify yourself as a [recent] Catholic, and seem to also **claim some theological authority.” **End quote.

I don’t consider I have any theological authority.

For example:
When I say: A GOD’S CHILD/ELECT cannot lose salvation I say that with great theological authority.

Not my authority because I have no authority.

I say that with the authority of the RCC who teach it on **the level of DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty): A GOD’S CHILD/ELECT cannot lose salvation.

God Bless,

LatinRight

 

[Wannano]

Thank you so much for this (name removed by moderator)ut. This explanation is the only one that makes any sense to me.

 

[LatinRight]

**God bless (name removed by moderator),

Ignorance—Invincible and Vincible by James Akin **

Quote: Those who have accepted the Catholic faith are in a special position concerning innocent ignorance.

Vatican I taught that God gives special grace to those who have embraced the true faith so that they may persevere in it, “not deserting if he [God] be not deserted.”

**As a result of this special grace, “those who have received the faith under the teaching authority of the Church can never have a just reason to change this same faith or to reject it” (Dei Filius 3; ND 124, D 1794, DS 3014). **

This applies, of course, to those who have genuinely accepted the Catholic faith under the influence of the Magisterium.

Not those who—though baptized or received into the Church—never actually accepted the Catholic faith due to absent or grossly defective catechesis. End quote. Emphasis added.

God Bless,

LatinRight

 

[PJM]

Hi, I’m the OP

I would agree that attempting to broadly apply the “H” word is unwise for a couple of reason

1st is the diminishing degree of culpability that insures because of time-lapse between the origin of the schism and what is now not so much “invented” as being taught.

Pagans would have their Temples

Jews their Synagogues

And Christian which who at THAT time were exclusively Catholics would have their “Church”; singular by a single SET of Faith beliefs, and plural as the reality of natural and HS led growth.

SECONDLY, No “church” can be separated from it’s One set of Faith beliefs as evidenced by the RCC church, ow 2,000 years young and its ONE set of Faith beliefs, when compared to non-Catholic Christians, now 500 years old and thousands of differing churches.

GBY

Patrick

 

[goout]

That word “know” has a profound depth that goes to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
My neighbor’s wife has lived next door to me for 17 years and I know everything about her that can be seen or told.
But I do not really know her. I know my wife.
In regards to my neighbor, there is no depth of relationship to be killed. Not seeking her out for conversation for months is not the same thing as not talking to my wife for months.
If I don’t talk to my wife for months a deep relationship will die.

Knowing goes way deeper than intellectual grasp.