WHY do you [if you do?] think the RCC is not the One true Church founded by Christ?

[Peter_J]

No, I am not infallible

I am shocked!

But going back to the word Pope, I note that this is one of many words that mean father – and that in the early church the Bishop of Alexandria, as well as the Bishop of Rome, was called Pope.

 

[steve_b]

We’ve been down this street. Last time you asked I actually gave you a reference to the documents of one of the 4th century councils that referenced “orthodox clergy and faithful”, in the context of church controversies, which you never responded to. “Orthodox Church” simply means “the church that is orthodox”, and “orthodoxy” is a term that goes back almost to the beginning.

My question to you was simple

I’m **not **looking for an adjective “orthodox”. I’m looking for the name “Orthodox Church”
Do you have a reference?

As to your other point, If you have a specific reference to a question I might have missed, and didn’t respond to you, please give me the exact reference. I’ll be very happy to respond

 

[Wannano]

I am shocked!

But going back to the word Pope, I note that this is one of many words that mean father – and that in the early church the Bishop of Alexandria, as well as the Bishop of Rome, was called Pope.

Romans 8 : 14 -16

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For we have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; for we have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, ABBA, FATHER. The Spirit itself be are the witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”

Pope, papa, Father, Daddy!

 

[Expatreprocedit]

My question to you was simple

I’m **not **looking for an adjective “orthodox”. I’m looking for the name “Orthodox Church”
Do you have a reference?

As to your other point, If you have a specific reference to a question I might have missed, and didn’t respond to you, please give me the exact reference. I’ll be very happy to respond

No, I don’t, just as you don’t have a reference for “Catholic Church” used as a proper name rather than an adjective. “Orthodox” and “catholic” were both adjectives in the first millenium.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Yes, I believe Jesus will guide us directly. The Lord’s Prayer asks God to do that. No, I am not infallible, just like the Pope. I understand he goes to confession.

It’s nice to think Jesus guides us directly, but experience shows us that He seems to be guiding us in all different directions. No wonder you aren’t infallible.

(In regards to confession, infallibility is not the same as impeccability.)

 

[PJM]

Hello Patrick,

 Would you mind going into detail by what you mean by one true church and what benefits you hope to gain by being a member of the one true church.  Jesus said many times that we will be judged in the same way we judge others.

FORUM: Why do you think the RCC is not the One True Church
POST #2

Hello Patrick,

Would you mind going into detail by what you mean by one true church and what benefits you hope to gain by being a member of the one true church. Jesus said many times that we will be judged in the same way we judge others.

My friend if I have not answered this I am so very sorry. Forgive me

As you know space is limited here on the FORUM, so I will be more brief that I’d like to be.

The base-issue is TRUTH; and every defined disuse can logically & morally only have ONE

Without a single exception; the bible teaches that there are and we ought to accept that there are:

But ONE True God [Triune] the 1st Commandment
One God can have nothing BUT ONE set of faith beliefs
And just as Yahweh choose only ONE “chosen people” / Only ONE chosen "Church"

Exo 6:7; Jesus does the same in freely choosing to establish just ONE Church; “MY Church” singular Mt 16:18

And this is neither coincidence or unmediated; unplanned, God Knows well the humanity He Created with a mind, intellect & Freewill, so God choose to GIVE only One RIGHT superior choice, knowing that in doing so, it would then be more difficult for man to make the wrong choice. BUT God Commands but does not make it impossible for humanity to do it their own way.

Use this site to look up these all the verses, and in doing so pay very close attention the carefully, HS Inspired 2 Tim 3:16-17, singular tense words that must not be overlooked or glossed over for right understanding

www. drbo.org/

Mt 10: 1-8
Points out that God has chosen His 12 Apostles with whom He shares some of His GODLY powers and authority [directly, precisely & exclusively]
He names Peter as “The First” also in Mt 16:18-19

He commands that THEY go “ONLY” to the Jews, no one else [which is changed to the “ENTIRE WORLD” in Mt 28: 18-19 with a command that is direct, [YOU] precise and exclusive

Mt 16:18
Jesus choses Peter to LEAD in Christ absence His New One Church & One Faith Eph 4: 1-7; and Mt 28:19-20

This is no NEW invention: Jesus was only following His Own OT example of always appointing ONE MAN to be His chosen interface with His One Chosen People: Noah, Abram, Moses, Jacob, the Judges, the Kings like David, the Prophets lie Isaiah, up to John the Baptist who led to Jesus, who freely choose Peter

**Eph 2: 19-22 **
Now therefore YOU are no more strangers and foreigners; but YOU are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, **Built upon the foundation of THE APOSTLES **and prophets, **JESUS CHRIST himself **being the chief CORNER STONE: In whom all the BUILDING [SINGULAR] being framed together, groweth up into an HOLY TEMPLE [SINGULAR] in the Lord. In whom YOU also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit.

Then Jesus makes the Godly promise that the “Gate of Hell would NEVER prevail against it” … “MY Church” singular Mt 16:18 & what EVER they teach [on Faith & Morals ONLY] would be accepted by God in heaven Mt 16:19 and warranted personally by BOTH Jesus & the HS John 17:17-20

Of NOTE: NO “church” CAN possibly be separated from its OWN set of faith beliefs. It is this very FACT that separates any one church from another.

SUMMARY:

One must be humble enough to actually accept the ONLY possible definition for “TRUTH”; which CAN be nothing other than singular per defined issue. Any bending of this reality spells doom; anything else is myth, wishful thinking

One True God

Who can even for God have ONLY one set of faith beliefs? HOW can even God hold or accept not only differing, but often contradictory sets of faith beliefs?

And founded exactly and precisely what He desired: One, “My [ONE] Church” Mt 16:18, knowing that no “church” can or could be separated from its One set of faith beliefs

Nothing else is logical or provable

Not one time, not one place in the bible CAN it be shown where GOD ever desired, accepted was tolerant of, or even over looked ANY competition faiths, gods or beliefs other than the ONE set he commanded

Sir.15: 1” Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him”

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

The evidences are plentiful If, If the Holy Spirit is permitted to Guide you to His TRUTHS, this is but a VERY brief example of it

GBY.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, I believe Jesus will guide us directly. The Lord’s Prayer asks God to do that. No, I am not infallible, just like the Pope. I understand he goes to confession.

Not true. Not true. The Pope is infallible.

This infallibility in virtue of his office, when as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals.

Another wards he is when he speaks and teaches in the name of Jesus. So do you still want to say you are just like the Pope??

And you are correct, the Pope does go to confession. I heard St John Paul ll went everyday. The Pope does not have to be perfect and sinless, and never claimed to be.

But he has a promise from Jesus when he speaks or teaches from the (chair of Peter) in his name we can be sure it is from the true word of God.

 

[Rohzek]

The Catholic Church is the Church Jesus established. Here’s a condensed 1st 400 yrs of history #34

I have a question for you

When is the 1st time in history, in writing, properly referenced, where we see the name “Orthodox Church” ?

Anyone with training in classical languages, such as myself, knows full well that when “catholic” and “orthodox” appear in Late Antique and medieval writings, they are as adjectives, not proper nouns. You’re asking a question that has no answer. But you should know this already, since we’ve indeed had this conversation before. Your willingness to remain ignorant of the most basic and elementary grammatical characteristics of the languages of the Church Fathers as a means to uphold your worldview never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Rohzek]

Hello Patrick,
Maybe you misunderstood. I am not concerned with the word “co-equal.” I am saying that the idea that God the Father and God the Son are “co-equal” is absent in a reasonable read of the Bible and absent in a reasonable read of the ECF before the 4th century.
My rejection of “co-equal” is the original view of Christianity.
Your acceptance of “co-equal” is the NEW view of Christianity.
You pointed me to the Apostles Creed and I said it does not “say” co-equal. Perhaps I should have said, “does not teach co-equal.” It does not.
Here again is some from the link I provided earlier:

Philippians 2:6:

“Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God”

 

[rinnie]

I did not realize that Pjm was trying to be funny.

PJM was not trying to be funny Wannano I was.

Let gave me explain this to you. If you read the bible we are told how to find the true Church that was started by Christ.

There are the 4 marks.

The Church must be ONE. The Church is one because of her source. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are all made up of ONE God.

The Church is HOLY, Because as Christ the Son of God who with the Father and Spirit is hailed as alone Holy, loved the Church as his bride gave up himself for her as to sanctify her he joined himself to her and his body and endowed her with the Gift of the Holy Spirit for the Glory of God.

The Church is Catholic, Catholic means universal. The Church is Catholic for 2 reasons, The Church is Catholic because Christ is in her, The Church is Catholic because she has been called out to the whole human race.

The Church is APOSTOLIC because she is founded on the Apostles in 3 ways. The foundation of the Apostles teachings, she has the Help of the Holy Spirit in her to keep hands on the teaching, and she continues to be sanctified to be guided by the Apostles and their successors until Christ comes again.

The reason I got a Chuckle out of PJM was how she made sure she stated the Church was holy (not the people in it). I understand these Marks of the Church. but she made sure to explain that one.

we are taught all Salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his body. All men and women are called to be united to Christ through his Church. That is one reason I myself take the Eucharist so serious, because it is in the RCC that I can truly be united to Christ in his body and blood in the Eucharist.

 

[prodromos]

I am shocked!

But going back to the word Pope, I note that this is one of many words that mean father – and that in the early church the Bishop of Alexandria, as well as the Bishop of Rome, was called Pope.

In Greece, it is often a title we give our priests. When living in Thessaloniki, our spiritual father/confessor was one Fr George, who all his spiritual children referred to as Papa Yiorgi.

 

[prodromos]

Anyone with training in classical languages, such as myself, knows full well that when “catholic” and “orthodox” appear in Late Antique and medieval writings, they are as adjectives, not proper nouns. You’re asking a question that has no answer. But you should know this already, since we’ve indeed had this conversation before. Your willingness to remain ignorant of the most basic and elementary grammatical characteristics of the languages of the Church Fathers as a means to uphold your worldview never ceases to amaze me.

I’ve grown accustomed to it, particularly in steve b’s case. Steve cannot apparently read Greek or Latin yet continues to make such claims based on the grammar of English translations. He looks like an idiot each time he raises this ‘point’

 

[Mammoths]

The Eastern Orthodox say that they are the one, true Church, because they have not changed the original Nicene Creed which did not contain the filioque clause.

I thought that was more about supremacy than theology. Anyway you’d have to have an extraordinary commitment to contortionist hermeneutics to draw much difference. Jesus is recorded as saying in scripture that he will send us the comforter. So obviously the Holy Spirit comes from the son. Also Jesus repeatedly refers to himself as acting exclusively under the father’s authority, so obviously the Holy Spirit also comes from the father. The whole argument is about magisterial authority. The western bishops updated the creed without consulting the eastern bishops who then got hot under the coller. Isn’t that right?

 

[LatinRight]

God bless,

Reading the posts of this tread I have find the following three statements:

(1.) NOT one time in the entire bible can it be shown that GOD ever desired, accepted, tolerated, permitted, or even overlooked ANY other set of faith beliefs than those he taught, commanded, desired and protected with jealously & justice.

(2.) Just One TRUE sets of Faith beliefs.

(3.) The RCC is The One True Church.

According to my Catholic education and also my opinion as a Catholic, I have find the above statements contradicts the teachings of the RCC and also offends the other True Christian Churches.

Instead of proclaiming with religious prides that we are the only one true Church, we should work on the unification between the RCC and the Protestant Churches.

After Vatican II, I never find in my entire Catholic study that the RCC claims or teach: The RCC is The One True Church and every other Christian Churches are heretical Churches and they are not true Christian Churches.

If some readers of the KAF don’t agree with my post please correct my post.

All of the above three statements contradicts the teachings of the RCC; CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc.

NOT every elect of God needs the SAME SET OF FAITH BELIEFS for their salvation, CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc. **– God is LOVING and JUST GOD made the salvation for everyone possible in all ages. **

If Christ would only founded the RCC about 2,000 years ago, then Christ would CLOSED THE DOOR of the salvation of the MAJORITY of the world.

That would made the salvation of our brothers and sisters/elect described in CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc. IMPOSSIBLE EVEN IN OUR AGE.

This is above a key to understand the reason that Christ must and did founded the Universal Church. - If Christ would founded only the RCC, our brothers and sisters/elect described in CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc. COULD NEVER BE SAVED, NOT EVEN IN OUR DAYS!

This is above an absolute and positive proof that Christ founded His Universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ.

According to the teachings of the RCC (CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc.), about 2,000 years ago Christ has founded His Universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ / The One True Church.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

To understand the teachings of the RCC, we must have clear understanding of the following theological terms:

1. THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH / BODY OF CHRIST / THE ONE TRUE CHURCH / BRIDE OF CHRIST?

Answer:
The members of the RCC, Protestant, Anglican Orthodox Churches and our brothers and sisters/elect of CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc. are the Universal Church / Body of Christ / The One True Church / Bride of Christ.

2. THE RCC, PROTESTANT, ANGLICAN, ORTHODOX, CCC 848, 1260, etc. CHURCHES IN RELATION TO THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH / BODY OF CHRIST / THE ONE TRUE CHURCH / BRIDE OF CHRIST?

Answer:
The RCC, Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches + our brothers and sisters/elect of CCC 848, 1260, etc. are The Universal Church / Body of Christ / The One True Church / Bride of Christ.

All of the members/elect of every local Christian Churches around the world + our brothers and sisters/elect of CCC 848, 1260, etc. are one and equal members in the Body of Christ / One True Church / Universal Church. Gal.3:27; 1 Cor.12: 12-13, 20, 27; etc.

Faith and beliefs need for the salvation of the elect, all Christian Churches/elect (RCC, Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches) **has the SAME SET OF FAITH BELIEFS as God’s free gift. **

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE? by James Akin

Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. Emphasis mine.

**Sola fide formata = (formed) FAITH
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FAITH:

a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)

b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)

c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)**

Every elect of God (RCC, Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches) a receiver of God’s free gift of formed faith (SAME SET OF FAITH BELIEFS) at baptism.

**The way of the salvation **of our brothers and sisters/elect described in CCC 848, 1260, etc. become members of THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH / BODY OF CHRIST / THE ONE TRUE CHURCH / BRIDE OF CHRIST is known only to God. – Maybe their numbers are far greater then we think.

Follow up teachings after baptism of the elect in different Churches slightly different, **this doesn’t effects the irrevocable salvation of the elect, an elect cannot lose salvation, (DE FIDE Dogma of the RCC).

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[Mammoths]

"

Reading the posts of this tread I have find the following three statements:

(1.) NOT one time in the entire bible can it be shown that GOD ever desired, accepted, tolerated, permitted, or even overlooked ANY other set of faith beliefs than those he taught, commanded, desired and protected with jealously & justice.
"
Case in point:

Acts of the apostles:

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Mammoths]

As to the original question, one thing that makes it tough is all the evidence that God is at work in many denominations making people holy and performing miracles. It seems like perhaps the universal church is trans-denominational.

 

[rinnie]

God bless,

Reading the posts of this tread I have find the following three statements:

(1.) NOT one time in the entire bible can it be shown that GOD ever desired, accepted, tolerated, permitted, or even overlooked ANY other set of faith beliefs than those he taught, commanded, desired and protected with jealously & justice.

(2.) Just One TRUE sets of Faith beliefs.

(3.) The RCC is The One True Church.

According to my Catholic education and also my opinion as a Catholic, I have find the above statements contradicts the teachings of the RCC and also offends the other True Christian Churches.

Instead of proclaiming with religious prides that we are the only one true Church, we should work on the unification between the RCC and the Protestant Churches.

After Vatican II, I never find in my entire Catholic study that the RCC claims or teach: The RCC is The One True Church and every other Christian Churches are heretical Churches and they are not true Christian Churches.

If some readers of the KAF don’t agree with my post please correct my post.

All of the above three statements contradicts the teachings of the RCC; CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc.

NOT every elect of God needs the SAME SET OF FAITH BELIEFS for their salvation, CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc. **– God is LOVING and JUST GOD made the salvation for everyone possible in all ages. **

If Christ would only founded the RCC about 2,000 years ago, then Christ would CLOSED THE DOOR of the salvation of the MAJORITY of the world.

That would made the salvation of our brothers and sisters/elect described in CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc. IMPOSSIBLE EVEN IN OUR AGE.

This is above a key to understand the reason that Christ must and did founded the Universal Church. - If Christ would founded only the RCC, our brothers and sisters/elect described in CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc. COULD NEVER BE SAVED, NOT EVEN IN OUR DAYS!

This is above an absolute and positive proof that Christ founded His Universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ.

According to the teachings of the RCC (CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc.), about 2,000 years ago Christ has founded His Universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ / The One True Church.

Continue

How does telling the truth that the RCC is the One True Church mean that everyone else cannot be saved? I am not sure what you are saying here. That we should not accept the One Truth that was given to us by Christ that there is not one truth? And we should accept many truth’s. How can there be more then one truth?

The sole Church of Christ which in in the creed we profess one holy catholic and apostolic subsists in the CC which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. NEVERTHELESS many elements of sanctifcation and truth are found outside its Visible confines. 870 CCC.

 

[rinnie]

God bless,

Reading the posts of this tread I have find the following three statements:

(1.) NOT one time in the entire bible can it be shown that GOD ever desired, accepted, tolerated, permitted, or even overlooked ANY other set of faith beliefs than those he taught, commanded, desired and protected with jealously & justice.

(2.) Just One TRUE sets of Faith beliefs.

(3.) The RCC is The One True Church.

According to my Catholic education and also my opinion as a Catholic, I have find the above statements contradicts the teachings of the RCC and also offends the other True Christian Churches.

Instead of proclaiming with religious prides that we are the only one true Church, we should work on the unification between the RCC and the Protestant Churches.

After Vatican II, I never find in my entire Catholic study that the RCC claims or teach: The RCC is The One True Church and every other Christian Churches are heretical Churches and they are not true Christian Churches.

If some readers of the KAF don’t agree with my post please correct my post.

All of the above three statements contradicts the teachings of the RCC; CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc.

NOT every elect of God needs the SAME SET OF FAITH BELIEFS for their salvation, CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc. **– God is LOVING and JUST GOD made the salvation for everyone possible in all ages. **

If Christ would only founded the RCC about 2,000 years ago, then Christ would CLOSED THE DOOR of the salvation of the MAJORITY of the world.

That would made the salvation of our brothers and sisters/elect described in CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc. IMPOSSIBLE EVEN IN OUR AGE.

This is above a key to understand the reason that Christ must and did founded the Universal Church. - If Christ would founded only the RCC, our brothers and sisters/elect described in CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc. COULD NEVER BE SAVED, NOT EVEN IN OUR DAYS!

This is above an absolute and positive proof that Christ founded His Universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ.

According to the teachings of the RCC (CCC 848, CCC 1260, etc.), about 2,000 years ago **Christ has founded His Universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ / The One True Church.**i

Continue

CCC 848 does not say the RCC is not the one true church, has plural truths. And where does 1260 deny any of the 3 truths above. 1260 says every man who is ignorant to the gospel of Christ and HIS CHURCH but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had know its necessity.

And by the way I do not understand number one that you stated. God has never taught plural truths so I could never see any contradiction in the truth. Maybe its my misunderstanding and you could help me understand what you are saying there. Thanks

 

[Wannano]

"

Reading the posts of this tread I have find the following three statements:

(1.) NOT one time in the entire bible can it be shown that GOD ever desired, accepted, tolerated, permitted, or even overlooked ANY other set of faith beliefs than those he taught, commanded, desired and protected with jealously & justice.
"
Case in point:

Acts of the apostles:

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Great answer that should put that worn out statement to rest. You mentioned about three points, I am interested in knowing what the other two are?