WHY do you [if you do?] think the RCC is not the One true Church founded by Christ?

[steve_b]

It’s that you cannot read.

what is it specifically you wanted me to see?

 

[Expatreprocedit]

The question was

When is the first time in history that we see “Orthodox Church,” in writing, properly referenced.

Actually I DID give you an answer, I can’t say it was the first time in history., but it was very early in history, in the 4th century. No I do not have the time or inclination to dig it up again for you right now.

And the question I and many others keep asking, that you refuse to answer is: why is it important?

I will not dialogue with you again on this subject until I receive and answer to this question.

 

[steve_b]

Actually I DID give you an answer, I can’t say it was the first time in history., but **it was very early in history, in the 4th century. No I do not have the time or inclination to dig it up again for you right now. **

IOW you don’t know.
E:

And the question I and many others keep asking, that you refuse to answer is: why is it important?

I gave it already. It has to do with proof of existence
see #436
E:

I will not dialogue with you again on this subject until I receive and answer to this question.

Now you have an answer.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

IOW you don’t know.

Uh, no, IOW I gave you the answer once and you were not attentive enough to note it, and the question is not of enough interest to me that I kept track of it.

I gave it already. It has to do with proof of existence
see #436

Now you have an answer.

This is what was in the referenced post:

Prove?

It’s like me asking you for example, you as a Protestant, who (by name) started your particular church? And what is the date it was started?

So for you a church doesn’t exist unless there is some document that states, for example “The Orthodox Church was founded on this date”. That’s just sad. It betrays a very immature understanding of church history.

 

[rcwitness]

And how did I misrepresent your comment?

Taking this in steps

• What’s really going on here is, you can’t find “Orthodox Church” in the early historical records or you would present it.
• And while we’re at it, show where “Orthodox Church” appeared in the 7 councils you accept as ecumenical? Please give the quotes properly referenced of course, and maybe we can answer this question.
• Re: the papacy as being modern and references taken out of context, to fit some “modern view” where is your evidence for this?

As for quote mining, I give a quote and reference it properly to support the point being made. MOST of the time, I also give the link.

Did you ever think that given the virtual avalanche of information available in history supporting the papacy and the Catholic Church, that it is you who is wrong about your view?

Cardinal Kasper, was in charge of ecumenical outreach for the Vatican. He had this to say back in 2002.
“We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church does not really exist,” he contends. “At the present stage, it does not seem that Constantinople is yet capable of integrating the different autocephalous Orthodox Churches; there are doubts about its primacy of honor, especially in Moscow.”

from zenit.org/articles/the-crisi…rdinal-kasper/

When everybody thinks they are in charge then no one is in charge.

That’s actually quite an interesting thing for the Cardinal to say… It’s kind of extreme! But he must be quite convicted of that statement, since he no doubt has put a lot of devotion into inter-communion relations and dialogue efforts. Perhaps it came during an exhausted point of effort… ?

 

[steve_b]

This is what was in the referenced post:

Prove?

Not so


if I understand you correctly, you would say the Mormons for example, can say / claim that they existed since Abraham (which they claim) and you require no evidence for their case to be true, you’d believe it because that’s what they claim?

Now THAT’s sad!!!

 

[steve_b]

That’s actually quite an interesting thing for the Cardinal to say… It’s kind of extreme!

Why?
r:

But he must be quite convicted of that statement, since he no doubt has put a lot of devotion into inter-communion relations and dialogue efforts. Perhaps it came during an exhausted point of effort… ?

If I can capsulize Kasper’s point, if no ONE is in charge, (which there isn’t) then no ONE can speak for all (which is true). So no decision can come from the effort expended.

 

[rinnie]

Continuation

MAIN POINTS OF OUR ERA AFTER VATICAN II, AFTER CCC 818, 819, 1271, 847, 848, 1260 etc. become part of the CCC.

A Catholic officially NOT free to say The RCC is The One True Church founded by Christ and she is the Universal Church.

Because AFTER CCC 818, 819, 1271, 847, 848, 1260 etc. all Christian Churches are True Churches with our brothers and sisters/elect described in CCC 847, 848, 1260 etc. and all are members of the Universal Church, founded by Christ.
Pentecost is the birthday of the Universal Church.

A Catholic who knows the teachings of the RCC includes CCC 818, 819, 1271, 847, 848, 1260 etc.

NEWER say; the RCC is The One True Church but say in harmony with the teachings of the RCC, the RCC is a True Church.

This is nothing to do with political correctness,** this is everything to do with theological correctness and with the love and respects of our Christian brothers and sisters.**

We shouldn’t commit the sin of religious pride and lack of love and respect by saying; look at us, our Church is The only One True Church!!!

ANOTHER ISSUE

CCC 866 The Church is one: she acknowledges one Lord, confesses one faith, is born of one Baptism, forms only one Body, is given life by the one Spirit, for the sake of one hope (cf. Eph 4:3-5), at whose fulfillment all divisions will be overcome.

CCC 870 “The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic,… subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines”(LG 8).

If we study 866 – 870; 818, 819, 1271, 847, 848, 1260 etc. in context, we see “The Church is one: … one Lord, confesses one faith, is born of one Baptism, forms only one Body,” speaking about the Catholic (Universal) Church, which the RCC is a part of it with all other Christian Churches and all are One Body in the universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ.

A QUOTE FROM YOUR POST RINNIE
“And by the way I do not understand number one that you stated. God has never taught plural truths so I could never see any contradiction in the truth. Maybe its my misunderstanding and you could help me understand what you are saying there. Thanks”

Sorry but I don’t remember I have written the above text and I couldn’t find it in my posts.
To tell the truth I don’t understand it either.

God bless,

LatinRight

Okay lets get back to the point of this thread, before we even go on. I want you to answer the question why YOU feel the RCC is NOT the ONE True Church founded by Christ. Because that is what the question is.

You seem to be avoiding that question. So first of all you need to answer that question, not go on millions of other ideas how Christ through his great grace can work in mysterious ways we will never understand. Because as you stated and I agree with you Salvation is through Jesus Christ and he can work through anyone anywhere.

I do not see where ANYONE here is disputing this.

So lets get to the question asked and you answer it first, Show me why the RCC is NOT the one true Church founded by Christ. Okay? Can you do this first? Lets stick to whats asked, not ever other question in the world right now. Thanks, for listening.

 

[LatinRight]

Okay lets get back to the point of this thread, before we even go on. I want you to answer the question why YOU feel the RCC is NOT the ONE True Church founded by Christ. Because that is what the question is.

You seem to be avoiding that question. So first of all you need to answer that question, not go on millions of other ideas how Christ through his great grace can work in mysterious ways we will never understand. Because as you stated and I agree with you Salvation is through Jesus Christ and he can work through anyone anywhere.

I do not see where ANYONE here is disputing this.

So lets get to the question asked and you answer it first, Show me why the RCC is NOT the one true Church founded by Christ. Okay? Can you do this first? Lets stick to whats asked, not ever other question in the world right now. Thanks, for listening.

God bless Rinnie,

I feel the RCC is NOT the ONE True Church founded by Christ because I believe the teachings of the RCC.

According to CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc.

CCC 1271 … Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.” End quote.

**THE RESULTS OF CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc. **

1. The members of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches became True Christians.
2. As the True Christians are the True Churches, as the results the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches became True Churches.
3. As the Protestant, Anglican, etc. Churches **became True Churches, the RCC could not be any longer The One True Church but a True Church **a part of the Universal Church with the parts of the other True Churches.

Also our brothers and sisters/elect described in 847, 848, 1260 etc. saved by solely God and God baptized them into the Universal Church / Body of Christ /Bride of Christ without they become members of the RCC or any other Protestant, Anglican or orthodox Churches.

Their salvation from Pentecost continuing side by side with the salvation of the members of the RCC, Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches.

Birthday of the Universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ is Pentecost, founded by Christ. – Always were bigger then the RCC.

If anyone study CCC 818, 819, 1271, 847, 848, 1260 etc. understands and know the above theological facts. – This is above, the teachings of the RCC.

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[rinnie]

God bless Rinnie,

I feel the RCC is NOT the ONE True Church founded by Christ because I believe the teachings of the RCC.

According to CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc.

CCC 1271 … Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.” End quote.

**THE RESULTS OF CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc. **

1. The members of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches became True Christians.
2. As the True Christians are the True Churches, as the results the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches became True Churches.
3. As the Protestant, Anglican, etc. Churches **became True Churches, the RCC could not be any longer The One True Church but a True Church **a part of the Universal Church with the parts of the other True Churches.

Also our brothers and sisters/elect described in 847, 848, 1260 etc. saved by solely God and God baptized them into the Universal Church / Body of Christ /Bride of Christ without they become members of the RCC or any other Protestant, Anglican or orthodox Churches.

Their salvation from Pentecost continuing side by side with the salvation of the members of the RCC, Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches.

Birthday of the Universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ is Pentecost, founded by Christ. – Always were bigger then the RCC.

If anyone study CCC 818, 819, 1271, 847, 848, 1260 etc. understands and know the above theological facts. – This is above, the teachings of the RCC.

God bless,

LatinRight

okay so then you are saying that the Catholic Church does not have the true teachings of Christ and does not have the fullness of the truth, simply because it accepts the truth’s taught by other Church"s?

 

[rinnie]

God bless Rinnie,

I feel the RCC is NOT the ONE True Church founded by Christ because I believe the teachings of the RCC.

According to CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc.

CCC 1271 … Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.” End quote.

**THE RESULTS OF CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc. **

1. The members of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches became True Christians.
2. As the True Christians are the True Churches, as the results the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches became True Churches.
3. As the Protestant, Anglican, etc. Churches **became True Churches, the RCC could not be any longer The One True Church but a True Church **a part of the Universal Church with the parts of the other True Churches.

Also our brothers and sisters/elect described in 847, 848, 1260 etc. saved by solely God and God baptized them into the Universal Church / Body of Christ /Bride of Christ without they become members of the RCC or any other Protestant, Anglican or orthodox Churches.

Their salvation from Pentecost continuing side by side with the salvation of the members of the RCC, Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches.

Birthday of the Universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ is Pentecost, founded by Christ. – Always were bigger then the RCC.

If anyone study CCC 818, 819, 1271, 847, 848, 1260 etc. understands and know the above theological facts. – This is above, the teachings of the RCC.

God bless,

LatinRight

Yes I know the teachings of the RCC. Before we move on lets start with 817 In this ONE and ONLY Chuch, read that and come back. I have my grandson and he is very demanding today does not like me on computer. Read that and I will get back as soon as possible. Thanks

 

[rcwitness]

God bless Rinnie,

I feel the RCC is NOT the ONE True Church founded by Christ because I believe the teachings of the RCC.

According to CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc.

CCC 1271 … Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.” End quote.

**THE RESULTS OF CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc. **

1. The members of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches became True Christians.
2. As the True Christians are the True Churches, as the results the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches became True Churches.
3. As the Protestant, Anglican, etc. Churches **became True Churches, the RCC could not be any longer The One True Church but a True Church **a part of the Universal Church with the parts of the other True Churches.

Also our brothers and sisters/elect described in 847, 848, 1260 etc. saved by solely God and God baptized them into the Universal Church / Body of Christ /Bride of Christ without they become members of the RCC or any other Protestant, Anglican or orthodox Churches.

Their salvation from Pentecost continuing side by side with the salvation of the members of the RCC, Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches.

Birthday of the Universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ is Pentecost, founded by Christ. – Always were bigger then the RCC.

If anyone study CCC 818, 819, 1271, 847, 848, 1260 etc. understands and know the above theological facts. – This is above, the teachings of the RCC.

God bless,

LatinRight

Just because all Christians are “incorporated into the One Church” doesn’t mean the One Church is not the Catholic Church. It means that those, who are in separated communities from full communion with the head See of the Catholic Church do in fact have a union with the Church, though it is imperfect.

It is a common faith in the fundamental Gospel which puts them in possible salvation. Each individual’s personal culpability of knowingly separating themselves from the Catholic Church depends on their awareness of the See of Rome having Universal Jurisdiction and primarily, His Eucharist.

The fact that you refer to the CCC in order to affirm who is incorporated into the Catholic Church shows that the See of Rome plays an important role in constituting the True Church of God, in your own belief.

A question for you could be, “Do all churches have a true Eucharist?”

 

[rinnie]

Just because all Christians are “incorporated into the One Church” doesn’t mean the One Church is not the Catholic Church. It means that those, who are in separated communities from full communion with the head See of the Catholic Church do in fact have a union with the Church, though it is imperfect.

It is a common faith in the fundamental Gospel which puts them in possible salvation. Each individual’s personal culpability of knowingly separating themselves from the Catholic Church depends on their awareness of the See of Rome having Universal Jurisdiction and primarily, His Eucharist.

The fact that you refer to the CCC in order to affirm who is incorporated into the Catholic Church shows that the See of Rome plays an important role in constituting the True Church of God, in your own belief.

A question for you could be, “Do all churches have a true Eucharist?”

exactly and what I am trying to get him to see is that just because the RCC accepts all truth found in other Church’s, it is because of the RCC that the truth they have even exist.

But while we accept them yes as Christians, if they were baptised in the Trinity and agree we are united to them through baptism, in no means takes away the One True Church.

We accept any truth that they preach or teach that was given to them from the CC.

But while we accept the truth they have, we also must be honest and not accept the false teachings they have. Many deny Christ in the Eucharist. They say a symbol. etc.

Many deny the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins by Priests given to them by Christ.

The RCC is the FULLNESS of truth. No where in the CCC does it say that the RCC is not the one true church. It actually says the opposite. As I have shown him.

 

[rinnie]

God bless Rinnie,

I feel the RCC is NOT the ONE True Church founded by Christ because I believe the teachings of the RCC.

According to CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc.

CCC 1271 … Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.” End quote.

**THE RESULTS OF CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc. **

1. The members of the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches became True Christians.
2. As the True Christians are the True Churches, as the results the Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox Churches became True Churches.
3. As the Protestant, Anglican, etc. Churches **became True Churches, the RCC could not be any longer The One True Church but a True Church **a part of the Universal Church with the parts of the other True Churches.

Also our brothers and sisters/elect described in 847, 848, 1260 etc. saved by solely God and God baptized them into the Universal Church / Body of Christ /Bride of Christ without they become members of the RCC or any other Protestant, Anglican or orthodox Churches.

Their salvation from Pentecost continuing side by side with the salvation of the members of the RCC, Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches.

Birthday of the Universal Church / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ is Pentecost, founded by Christ. – Always were bigger then the RCC.

If anyone study CCC 818, 819, 1271, 847, 848, 1260 etc. understands and know the above theological facts. – This is above, the teachings of the RCC.

God bless,

LatinRight

Latin, what the CCC is teaching is this. We know that because of sin of our leaders at times Men have separated themselves from the fullness of the truth.

We are not saying that your Church is evil, etc. We are saying if you are doing the best you can with what you have, we admire and Love you for the truth you have. And yes Salvation is possible.

But what God wants is for us all to reunite to the First One true Church and become one, like we were in the beginning.

We are all united to eachother from the RCC and its teachings, but are separated because of human err, not the Church. You are still of course a Christian, and could get to heaven before us, no doubt. But the point is there is only ONE Church that has ALL of the truth. While others may be wonderful, and have great people they are lacking some kind of truth.

 

[rcwitness]

exactly and what I am trying to get him to see is that just because the RCC accepts all truth found in other Church’s, it is because of the RCC that the truth they have even exist.

I would be careful how you express this. I don’t think it’s because of the Catholic Church that the Truth “exists”, but rather because of the Catholic Church that the Truth (the Gospel/wisdom of God) is made known (delivered through Scripture/Tradition/Magisterial Teaching).

For example:
Ephesians 3
Through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.
And…
Hebrews 11
And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

These verses touch on the reality that God made His Revelation through Jesus, and Jesus to Peter and the Apostles. It is through their “sharing” and delivering the Gospel, and the Sacraments of the Gospel to those who are called and become obedient, that many are received into the Church.

What the denominations have done, is taken the Gospel, and it’s Scriptures, and removed them from His Eucharist. His Baptism is available to those believing in Jesus, but not His Eucharist, unless one enters into full communion and devotion with His Church. Jesus made it clear that His Eucharist is necessary to remain in Him. But the separated communities have many mixed understandings of what that means. It becomes a matter of personal culpability, for individuals to hear the call to His Eucharist table, in order to be obedient to His command.

 

[rinnie]

I would be careful how you express this. I don’t think it’s because of the Catholic Church that the Truth “exists”, but rather because of the Catholic Church that the Truth (the Gospel/wisdom of God) is made known (delivered through Scripture/Tradition/Magisterial Teaching).

For example:
Ephesians 3
Through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.
And…
Hebrews 11
And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

These verses touch on the reality that God made His Revelation through Jesus, and Jesus to Peter and the Apostles. It is through their “sharing” and delivering the Gospel, and the Sacraments of the Gospel to those who are called and become obedient, that many are received into the Church.

What the denominations have done, is taken the Gospel, and it’s Scriptures, and removed them from His Eucharist. His Baptism is available to those believing in Jesus, but not His Eucharist, unless one enters into full communion and devotion with His Church. Jesus made it clear that His Eucharist is necessary to remain in Him. But the separated communities have many mixed understandings of what that means. It becomes a matter of personal culpability, for individuals to hear the call to His Eucharist table, in order to be obedient to His command.

What I mean by that is if it was not for the CC we would not even have the true word of God, including the Bible.

The CC is here to teach and preach the good word, to continue on what Jesus has started.

And yes of course the truth exists because of God. If thats what you mean.

 

[rinnie]

I would be careful how you express this. I don’t think it’s because of the Catholic Church that the Truth “exists”, but rather because of the Catholic Church that the Truth (the Gospel/wisdom of God) is made known (delivered through Scripture/Tradition/Magisterial Teaching).

For example:
Ephesians 3
Through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.
And…
Hebrews 11
And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

These verses touch on the reality that God made His Revelation through Jesus, and Jesus to Peter and the Apostles. It is through their “sharing” and delivering the Gospel, and the Sacraments of the Gospel to those who are called and become obedient, that many are received into the Church.

What the denominations have done, is taken the Gospel, and it’s Scriptures, and removed them from His Eucharist. His Baptism is available to those believing in Jesus, but not His Eucharist, unless one enters into full communion and devotion with His Church. Jesus made it clear that His Eucharist is necessary to remain in Him. But the separated communities have many mixed understandings of what that means. It becomes a matter of personal culpability, for individuals to hear the call to His Eucharist table, in order to be obedient to His command.

And you are correct starting with Luther. Which is what I was trying to relate to Latin, it is not that Jesus cannot work through other Church’s. We put not restraint on Christ. But we have the promise from God that he will protect his church and continue to teach us with the help of the Holy Spirit.

But just because other Church’s have truth and we accept truth, they still do not have the fullness of the truth, and some of their teachings are unfortunately false. That is why the RCC is the fullness of truth. We have all of the teachings and the Holy Spirit to protect our Church.

 

[rcwitness]

What I mean by that is if it was not for the CC we would not even have the true word of God, including the Bible.

I figured it’s what you meant. But there is a difference, and one that causes division. Protestants rightly object to the Church being the source of Divine Revelation. The Church was given the Deposit of Faith, with His Eucharist, and she is obligated to always profess, preach, and minister for His purpose and glory.

The CC is here to teach and preach the good word, to continue on what Jesus has started.

 

[LatinRight]

okay so then you are saying that the Catholic Church does not have the true teachings of Christ and does not have the fullness of the truth, simply because it accepts the truth’s taught by other Church"s?

God bless Rinnie,

I don’t saying that at all.

Because the RCC declared CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc. the Protestant, Anglican and

Orthodox Churches became true Churches, **the RCC didn’t lose even an iota (lost

nothing at all), still has the fullness of the truth, this is not changed.**

As the Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches became true Churches, the RCC is

a True Church. ** - Cannot be One True Church when the other Churches are True

Churches as well.**

God bless,

LatinRight

 

[Wannano]

God bless Rinnie,

I don’t saying that at all.

Because the RCC declared CCC 818, 819, 1271, etc. the Protestant, Anglican and

Orthodox Churches became true Churches, **the RCC didn’t lose even an iota (lost

nothing at all), still has the fullness of the truth, this is not changed.**

As the Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox Churches became true Churches, the RCC is

a True Church. ** - Cannot be One True Church when the other Churches are True

Churches as well.**

God bless,

LatinRight

I have not read the CCC articles mentioned. However, what LR is proposing seems like it should be so simple. Either it is a valid result of the CCC or it is not.

If it is not valid I can understand why Catholic posters would wish it had not been presented since it would be false information which I agree confuses a person like me.

If it is valid I can understand why many Catholics would have a huge problem.