Why do you love God?

[Genesis315]

IJesus Christ promised persecution from the world as His disciple, because the world does not know Him.

Catholics have been martyred more than any other in the 20th and 21st centuries.

Loving God does not exclude the fact that those who acknowledge Him do not all follow His will.

Oh, and Mormons do not believe in a non-contingent God, but rather a created god in an infinite regression of created gods. They do not acknowledge the true God.

I find it surprising you accuse us of religious pluralism, when it is you who in other threads claim a religious indifferentism in regards to various Christian ecclesial communities and Churches. We make no such claim, but we do acknowledge God alone is the sole judge of humanity and He is perfectly just and knows who strives to live by the truth and who willfully or negligently disregards it or fights against it.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Underdog,

I believe God can reveal Himself to our hearts however, whenever and to whomever He pleases. His love extends to all of us, we need only embrace Him and obey His commands to love one another.

You're right.. Mormons and Muslims have a different understanding of who God is from Catholics.  But a limited understanding or different understanding, or even a misguided understanding does not detract from the truth.  When one is following God with their whole heart, He will direct their path. He will reveal Himself in what He knows is the best way for their spiritual journey.

Does this mean I believe the Muslim or mormon view of God is true? No.. I believe God revealed His truth in its fullness in the Catholic Church. Still, even Catholics (including myself) do not understand this truth completely. Because He has made the truth available does not mean we will understand every part of it.

That is why the church is always growing in understanding… For 2000 years she has guarded the truth of God and Jesus against all heresy, and grown in understanding of His gift of love for us.

I believe that if a muslim or mormon is following God to the best of their understanding and in faith, that they ARE serving the same God as I am (for there is only ONE God…) even though they don’t understand who He is the same way I do.
Now, I expect you'll accuse myself and others here of "universalism" but it is simply not true. God is God, and Jesus is our savior, the only Way, Truth, and Life. But I do not limit the power of God to reveal Himself to mens hearts to my own experiences and understandings. I will faithfully follow Him through His church, because I know it contains the fullness of the truth. But I REFUSE to condemn or proselytize others who do not know Him the same way I do.

 

[CWBetts]

I never said that I love God too much in context of my posting. My problem is that I love God too little.

Do you love God too much to go against the tide of religious pluralism that seems to be the trend on this site? Jesus Christ promised persecution from the world as His disciple, because the world does not know Him. Do you guys really believe that the gods of Islam and Mormonism are the same God as you love and worship?

It would seem to me, somebody please correct me if i am wrong, but it would seem to me, that Underdog is the one who is throwing around the labels. We get labeled as Catholics (which we proudly are) but he seems to treat us as somehow less than Christian, which, of course, is preposterous. As to the answer of the question, 'Why do i love God?"

He keeps his promises.
He loves me unconditionally, even though I am an abysmal example of Christian behavior.
The Eucharist.
He gave us the Church.
He allowed us to show aour love by giving us a free will. Those of us who love God do so out of choice, not compulsion.
He is longsuffering (kind of connected to #2, I know)
He allows us to tell others of his love.
The Our Father.
The Beatitudes.
I could keep going…

 

[underdog]

Underdog,

I believe God can reveal Himself to our hearts however, whenever and to whomever He pleases. His love extends to all of us, we need only embrace Him and obey His commands to love one another.

You're right.. Mormons and Muslims have a different understanding of who God is from Catholics.  But a limited understanding or different understanding, or even a misguided understanding does not detract from the truth.  When one is following God with their whole heart, He will direct their path. He will reveal Himself in what He knows is the best way for their spiritual journey.

Does this mean I believe the Muslim or mormon view of God is true? No.. I believe God revealed His truth in its fullness in the Catholic Church. Still, even Catholics (including myself) do not understand this truth completely. Because He has made the truth available does not mean we will understand every part of it.

That is why the church is always growing in understanding… For 2000 years she has guarded the truth of God and Jesus against all heresy, and grown in understanding of His gift of love for us.

I believe that if a muslim or mormon is following God to the best of their understanding and in faith, that they ARE serving the same God as I am (for there is only ONE God…) even though they don’t understand who He is the same way I do.

Now, I expect you'll accuse myself and others here of "universalism" but it is simply not true.  God is God, and Jesus is our savior, the only Way, Truth, and Life.  But I do not limit the power of God to reveal Himself to mens hearts to my own experiences and understandings. I will faithfully follow Him through His church, because I know it contains the fullness of the truth. But I REFUSE to condemn or proselytize others who do not know Him the same way I do.

Thanks for your long answer. I’m not sure your view lines up well with historic Catholics throughout history. Please let me know why the Catholic Church receives Orthodox and Protestant baptism and not a Mormon baptism. I know the answer is the Trinity, but it goes much deeper than that. IMO… your refusal for sharing the necessity of Christ and Him crucified with Mormons, non-believing Jews, and Muslims is showing that you do not understand the saving gospel of God’s grace. Since when has it become a sin to proselytize those non-Christian faiths? I thought that was the great commission. In the book of Acts, Peter told us that he had to obey God and not men when speaking about the good news of God. I freely choose to follow the example of the Apostle Peter, gladly rejoicing in the suffering that I receive for bringing the good news to those who do not know God through Christ. It’s interesting that the persecution on this site comes from professing Christians as compared to non-Christians. It appears the gospel means very little to you. How can you love God if the gospel message means little to you?

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Justified by Faith - Gal 2

15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified [1] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness [2] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

 

[CWBetts]

Thanks for your long answer. I’m not sure your view lines up well with historic Catholics throughout history. Please let me know why the Catholic Church receives Orthodox and Protestant baptism and not a Mormon baptism. I know the answer is the Trinity, but it goes much deeper than that. IMO… your refusal for sharing the necessity of Christ and Him crucified with Mormons, non-believing Jews, and Muslims is showing that you do not understand the saving gospel of God’s grace. Since when has it become a sin to proselytize those non-Christian faiths? I thought that was the great commission. In the book of Acts, Peter told us that he had to obey God and not men when speaking about the good news of God. I freely choose to follow the example of the Apostle Peter, gladly rejoicing in the suffering that I receive for bringing the good news to those who do not know God through Christ. It’s interesting that the persecution on this site comes from professing Christians as compared to non-Christians. It appears the gospel means very little to you.

Why do you feel the need to hurl insults. The Gospel means EVERYTHING to Catholics.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Thanks for your long answer. I’m not sure your view lines up well with historic Catholics throughout history. Please let me know why the Catholic Church receives Orthodox and Protestant baptism and not a Mormon baptism. I know the answer is the Trinity, but it goes much deeper than that. IMO… your refusal for sharing the necessity of Christ and Him crucified with Mormons, non-believing Jews, and Muslims is showing that you do not understand the saving gospel of God’s grace. Since when has it become a sin to proselytize those non-Christian faiths? I thought that was the great commission. In the book of Acts, Peter told us that he had to obey God and not men when speaking about the good news of God. I freely choose to follow the example of the Apostle Peter, gladly rejoicing in the suffering that I receive for bringing the good news to those who do not know God through Christ. It’s interesting that the persecution on this site comes from professing Christians as compared to non-Christians. It appears the gospel means very little to you.

The difference is that you believe YOU are the one converting souls for Christ. You believe your words of condemnation are going to bring people to the truth. You believe by telling others they are wrong and that YOU know the truth, that their eyes will be opened.

I believe it is through loving one another..sharing our beliefs and growing in truth that we develope relationships that show Christ to others.   Sharing the gospel is not a matter of the mind, but a matter of the heart.

Unless you can love people of other faiths and respect their understanding of God…unless you can listen to them and acknowledge their FAITH in what they believe…there is no reason for them to believe your words.

Sharing the gospel is our commission… Converting others is the work of the HOLY SPIRIT, not us.

 

[underdog]

The difference is that you believe YOU are the one converting souls for Christ. You believe your words of condemnation are going to bring people to the truth. You believe by telling others they are wrong and that YOU know the truth, that their eyes will be opened.

I believe it is through loving one another..sharing our beliefs and growing in truth that we develope relationships that show Christ to others.   Sharing the gospel is not a matter of the mind, but a matter of the heart.

Unless you can love people of other faiths and respect their understanding of God…unless you can listen to them and acknowledge their FAITH in what they believe…there is no reason for them to believe your words.

Sharing the gospel is our commission… Converting others is the work of the HOLY SPIRIT, not us.

You know that’s not true. I believe in monergism and not synergism like yourself. God the Holy Spirit gives new life through the gospel message to all the Father gave the Son to save.

1 Corinthians 15

The Resurrection of Christ

15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, [1] of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. 1 Cor 15

 

[AshleyBelle]

;4551041 It appears the gospel means very little to you. How can you love God if the gospel message means little to you?
.

If after all our dialogue and all that others here have taken the time and effort to share with you… you STIL feel that the gospel message means little to me… then you have not been listening. I have little interest in your judgement of my heart for Jesus.

 

[AshleyBelle]

You also forget, that this forum is dedicated to those who have quesitons about the one, true faith.

If the Holy Spirit is working on a person’s heart to reveal the truth, then they have come to the right place. They will read, ask questions and learn only as much as they are prepared and given by God to understand.

Otherwise, your words are only an attack on their faith, and people are left to respond defensively when the things they value most in life are under attack.

You will not win souls by attacking others and bombarding them with truth when they have faith and follow God in the best way they know Him.

This is the place to learn and ask questions… It is NOT the place to condemn others who know God differently.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Thanks for your long answer. I’m not sure your view lines up well with historic Catholics throughout history. Please let me know why the Catholic Church receives Orthodox and Protestant baptism and not a Mormon baptism. I know the answer is the Trinity, but it goes much deeper than that. IMO… your refusal for sharing the necessity of Christ and Him crucified with Mormons, non-believing Jews, and Muslims is showing that you do not understand the saving gospel of God’s grace. Since when has it become a sin to proselytize those non-Christian faiths? I thought that was the great commission. In the book of Acts, Peter told us that he had to obey God and not men when speaking about the good news of God. I freely choose to follow the example of the Apostle Peter, gladly rejoicing in the suffering that I receive for bringing the good news to those who do not know God through Christ. It’s interesting that the persecution on this site comes from professing Christians as compared to non-Christians. It appears the gospel means very little to you. How can you love God if the gospel message means little to you?

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Justified by Faith - Gal 2

15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified [1] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness [2] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Thank you for your long post. I’m not sure you response lines up with the TOPIC of this thread.

Anywhere, any discussion, you feel free to sway the subject in any direction. Why?

You shouldn’t confuse this forum as your private pulpit. npatrol:

 

[ncgolf]

God the Holy Spirit gives new life through the gospel message to all the Father gave the Son to save.

The Gospel is a message … so it is **how **it is communicated that it brings life … you don’t get it by osmosis.

The way you bring the message is a single view, not the way I would do it and certainly not the only way the Gospel can be proclaimed and spread.

If you attack other’s faith and depth of how they live it … expect a fight … because of the way you post that is all you ask for.

Remember God is the potter and you are clay … not the other way around.

You are Reformed aren’t you … oh and by the way … I am not a converted member of the LDS church … just wanted you to know.

 

[underdog]

Because he first loved us.

BDwags profile:

Location:Orem, UT
Religion: Mormon
**Occupation:university professor **

I have spoken to many Mormons in my life, and many are very smart. Since BDwags is a university professor, I am going to assume that he is smarter than most on this site including myself. Since he is from Oren Utah, I would say that he clearly believes that the Catholic Church is the cause of the great apostasy. BDwags is bringing your the gospel of Jospeh Smith in the resstoration of the historic apostate church (Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc). Do you guys want to discuss Islam next, or do you want to co-fellowship with all of the Mormons and Muslims on this site?

 

[AshleyBelle]

BDwags profile:

Location:Orem, UT
Religion: Mormon
**Occupation:university professor **

Do you think, by judging his profile, that he does not love God?

 

[underdog]

Do you think, by judging his profile, that he does not love God?

Apart from a vital union with Jesus Christ through the new birth, you are unable to love God. Christ came into this world to reconcile sinners to God, so sinners are able to love God Those who are in the flesh cannot please God, nor are they known by God. Those who are not united to Jesus Christ are enemies of God according to the Bible.

Please listen to the words of Jesus Christ:

Persecution Will Come

16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, 18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. 19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, 22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant [4] above his master. 25 It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign [5] those of his household.

Have No Fear

26 “So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. [6] 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? [7] And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Not Peace, but a Sword

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Rewards
40 “Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. 41 The one who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and the one who receives a righteous person because he is a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.”

 

[underdog]

The Gospel is a message … so it is **how **it is communicated that it brings life … you don’t get it by osmosis.

The way you bring the message is a single view, not the way I would do it and certainly not the only way the Gospel can be proclaimed and spread.

If you attack other’s faith and depth of how they live it … expect a fight … because of the way you post that is all you ask for.

Remember God is the potter and you are clay … not the other way around.

You are Reformed aren’t you … oh and by the way … I am not a converted member of the LDS church … just wanted you to know.

Please share your understanding of the gospel of God’s grace.

 

[underdog]

Thank you for your long post. I’m not sure you response lines up with the TOPIC of this thread.

Anywhere, any discussion, you feel free to sway the subject in any direction. Why?

You shouldn’t confuse this forum as your private pulpit. npatrol:

I think we are all here because of divine providence. It has nothing to do with me. Spiritual warfare is very obvious on this site because there is clearly a battle for God’s gospel to mankind.

 

[CWBetts]

Underdog,
I see you have already departed from the thread that you started, and are now intent on spreading your message of hate. Hate for every faith that is not your own.

 

[AshleyBelle]

I think we are all here because of divine providence. It has nothing to do with me. Spiritual warfare is very obvious on this site because there is clearly a battle for God’s gospel to mankind.

Are you fighting a battle to bring the Gospel to Catholics?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think we are all here because of divine providence. It has nothing to do with me. Spiritual warfare is very obvious on this site because there is clearly a battle for God’s gospel to mankind.

CONDUCT RULES

1. Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
2. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

DISCUSSION FORUMS

1. Do not pad your post count with chatty or off-topic messages.

General Guidelines

• Always abide by the forum rules.
• Civility and a respect for each other should be foremost.
• Posters are expected to treat each other as equals with equal expectations of each other in terms of research, logic, challenges, and portrayal of Catholic teaching.
• Questions are a better approach than assertions, unless the latter are framed in a non-confrontational and non-accusatory manner.
• Don’t answer a question with a question. If you don’t know the answer, say so.
• Rhetorical questions may be used to introduce a new aspect of inquiry but not to evade challenges or to call into question the intelligence, education, or any other personal qualities of another poster.
• It is acceptable to question policies and practices
• **It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs **
• It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs.
• If you aren’t going to go into the discussion with the resolution that you could just possibly have your view broadened, you may as well not go into it.
• Terms of derision, derogatory remarks, baiting, and inflammatory statements are prohibited.
• Avoid categorizing people by a term which could be considered derogatory (e.g., Nazi or neocon) unless they have embraced that title. In which case, you may qualify them with the term as long as you preface it with the word “avowed.” Posters are asked to use their best judgement when posting articles using such terms. Do not abbreviate terms.

Guidelines for posting on religious discussions

Members are not allowed to be disrespectful of anyone’s faith or religion, whether it is Catholicism or not. If a member is disrespectful, he will generally be counseled first and suspended if he persists in disrespectful postings.

If the nature of an initial posting is blatantly disrespectful to any religion (e.g., “the pope is the anti-Christ” or “Rome is the Whore of Babylon” or “Muslims are terrorists”), suspension may be immediate and without prior counseling.

Members are free to discuss, dialogue, question, disagree with, and debate the doctrines and dogmas of both Catholicism and non-Catholic religions. However, all discourse must be civil and charitable.

Guidelines
For both Catholic and non-Catholic posters:

• It is acceptable to question the doctrine or dogma of another’s faith
• It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs
• Bringing up historical controversies peculiar to a particular religion should be done cautiously*
• It is acceptable to discuss the effect the incident had on current policy or practice.
• It is acceptable to seek the truth vs. commonly-held beliefs or conventional wisdom about actual events.
• It is fallacious reasoning to use embarrassing incidents to claim that they “prove” a particular religion is false.
• Expecting members of any Church to defend or answer for the excesses or extremism of bodies that have broken with it is a technique that has no merit and can’t be defended.

npatrol:

 

[underdog]

Underdog,
I see you have already departed from the thread that you started, and are now intent on spreading your message of hate. Hate for every faith that is not your own.

Wow… that’s an amazing statement to make. Please tell me how the great good news of God becomes a message of hate. Christ came into this world to save sinners from all tongue, tribes, and nations… therefore let the nations be glad…praising God for what He has done for those who believe in His gospel. Are you mad because I am saying that Muslims, non-believing Jews, and Mormons do not know God through Christ?

Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Anglicans and others who are united on the essentials of the Christian faith believe in the same Jesus.

2 Corinthians 11:4

For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.