Why do you oppose immigration?

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Trying to leave out the “legality” and focus only on the “morality” of immigration:

Is it right or wrong to invade your neighbor’s house because you have a need?

Is it right or wrong to invade your neighbor’s country because you have a need?

Is there ANY moral difference between invading one’s HOME and one’s COUNTRY?
 
Black_Rose said:
I do not want to make that distinction because I wanted to detach the notion of legality from morality in whatever discussion may arise from the thread. In hindsight, I should have predicted that people will continue to use this justification for their views on immigration. In this thread, I wanted people to avoid invoking the legality of immigration in their reasoning to defend their views.
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The problem is that I think we don’t really understand what you are trying to do. I think that maybe you are trying to figure out why people think it is moral to limit immigration into a country?

(If that is the case, you might try responding to those who have explained the reasons they believe it is moral to do so. If not, I do wish you would clarify what you are asking.)
 
Black_Rose said:
I do not want to make that distinction because I wanted to detach the notion of legality from morality in whatever discussion may arise from the thread. In hindsight, I should have predicted that people will continue to use this justification for their views on immigration. In this thread, I wanted people to avoid invoking the legality of immigration in their reasoning to defend their views.
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Okay, then separate the difference difference between getting punched in the face during a boxing match and while you are being raped.

Or can you?
 
**"If we as a nation ultimately decide that the immigration law are impossible to enforce, then perhaps we should simply declare anyone born on the planet Earth to be a citizen of the United States," Michael Cutler, a former senior special agent at the immigration service’s New York district office, said at the National Press Club ****in 2003. “The downside is that if we did that, the United States would rapidly cease to exist as we know it today. … A country without sovereign borders can no more stand than can a house without walls.” **

Source:
sacbee.com/2010/07/22/2906434/if-the-feds-wont-act-on-illegal.html#ixzz0uQmpCmAF

The thoughtful opinion piece also states that 4 of the 19 9-11 hijackers had OVER STAYED their visas in America.

I think it immoral to allow uncontrolled immigration into any country when the threats to its existence are real and measurable. Not all self-interest is immoral.
 
Black_Rose said:
I do not want to make that distinction because I wanted to detach the notion of legality from morality in whatever discussion may arise from the thread. In hindsight, I should have predicted that people will continue to use this justification for their views on immigration. In this thread, I wanted people to avoid invoking the legality of immigration in their reasoning to defend their views.
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I’m not sure what you are trying to achieve, but for some of us we are hung up on this little thing called the law. I certainly am not opposed to immigration. I am a first generation American on one side. But I do see a difference in coming here legally and illegally. Maybe
you don’t see a difference. It’s hard to tell. You seem to be dismissing illegal as a sole reason and ascribing other motives to some of us. With due respect, this is how it reads to me.
 
mary_bobo said:
I’m not sure what you are trying to achieve, but for some of us we are hung up on this little thing called the law. I certainly am not opposed to immigration. I am a first generation American on one side. But I do see a difference in coming here legally and illegally. Maybe
you don’t see a difference. It’s hard to tell. You seem to be dismissing illegal as a sole reason and ascribing other motives to some of us. With due respect, this is how it reads to me.
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You cannot use the current law to oppose/promote immigration because if one does that, then they would have to accept every law. Of course, abortion is legal, and many do not find it morally acceptable.

Again, many will be surprised about what I actually think about immigration.
 
Black_Rose said:
You cannot use the current law to oppose/promote immigration because if one does that, then they would have to accept every law. Of course, abortion is legal, and many do not find it morally acceptable.
Again, many will be surprised about what I actually think about immigration.
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Again, you refuse to accept the very real distinction between legal and illegal immigration.
As to being surprised about what you think – I suspect many won’t care, after all this.
 
Black_Rose said:
Again, many will be surprised about what I actually think about immigration.
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We are nearly 70 posts into a thread that you authored.

If you really wished to discuss your own view of immigration, you would have brought it up by now.
This late into the game I suspect it a distraction from the real issues that have been brought up.

I am not certain I care to know.
You see, you have been trying desperately to seperate the law from the action.
We know this cannot be done. An act is either a crime or it is not.
Since you did not clarify which of the two in the original question, we are all forced to address both contingencies.
However when this is done, there is an immediate response on your end to complain about people using the law in their answer.

Knowing nothing of your actual position but seeing how you dance around the topic, I know your views on immigration to be distorted.

I know what I need to know of your view.
 
vz71 said:
I am not certain I care to know.
You see, you have been trying desperately to seperate the law from the action.
We know this cannot be done. An act is either a crime or it is not.
Since you did not clarify which of the two in the original question, we are all forced to address both contingencies.
However when this is done, there is an immediate response on your end to complain about people using the law in their answer.

Knowing nothing of your actual position but seeing how you dance around the topic, I know your views on immigration to be distorted.

I know what I need to know of your view.
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Ok, abortion isn’t a crime then, and it isn’t immoral. I guess abortion being legal is a reason not to oppose it, and justifies it morality then.
 
Ok, does anyone openly agree to Kevin MacDonald’s reasons for opposing immigration? It is a reason to oppose it, and it does not even invoke questions about its legality or illegality either:
“People opposed to immigration, they talk about economic problems and this and that. No one simply says “Europeans are not going to benefit from this as a group” that we are giving up control of our country to other peoples.”
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Does anyone think this is a legitimate view to oppose immigration? He doesn’t try to even try to enshroud his thinking with moralistic platitudes; he simply says it opposes European group interest. I simply admire it for its honesty.
 
Black_Rose said:
Ok, abortion isn’t a crime then, and it isn’t immoral. I guess abortion being legal is a reason not to oppose it, and justifies it morality then.
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With all due respect, what twisted logic brings you to equate the two? Immigration does not kill people, usually, abortion is murder. Yes, it is legal, but that does not make it moral and against God’s law.
 
mary_bobo said:
With all due respect, what twisted logic brings you to equate the two? Immigration does not kill people, usually, abortion is murder. Yes, it is legal, but that does not make it moral and against God’s law.
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I recall hearing a judge referring to abortion as “a legal execution”.
 
Black_Rose said:
Of course, I except most people’s opposition to immigration (or illegal immigration) to be mainly motivated by self-interest, instead of a through consideration of the common good. People would, of course, try to veil their self-interest by appealing to a version of morality by interpreting it in a fashion that would be in agreement with their interests.

I expressed my own views about it elsewhere, and they would be quite surprising to many.

Regardless of the actually motivations, I am interest enough to take a few minutes post a thread asking about people’s justifications for their position on immigration.

I’ll close with a quotation from Kevin MacDonald that is very controversial and frank:

“People opposed to immigration, they talk about economic problems and this and that. No one simply says “Europeans are not going to benefit from this as a group” that we are giving up control of our country to other peoples.”
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**Why do you oppose intelligence?

No one opposes immigration, every US citizen is the descendant of an immigrant. Every human being immigrated from somewhere!

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is the problem!
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
Black_Rose said:
Of course, I except most people’s opposition to immigration (or illegal immigration) to be mainly motivated by self-interest, instead of a through consideration of the common good. People would, of course, try to veil their self-interest by appealing to a version of morality by interpreting it in a fashion that would be in agreement with their interests.

I expressed my own views about it elsewhere, and they would be quite surprising to many.

Regardless of the actually motivations, I am interest enough to take a few minutes post a thread asking about people’s justifications for their position on immigration.

I’ll close with a quotation from Kevin MacDonald that is very controversial and frank:

“People opposed to immigration, they talk about economic problems and this and that. No one simply says “Europeans are not going to benefit from this as a group” that we are giving up control of our country to other peoples.”
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Why do you post a thread where you are essentially asking people to answer “Why are you a bad, racist person?”

You’ve assumed a strawman and you won’t give it up. If you gave it up, you would have to the arguments other would make.
 
Mark77 said:
No one opposes immigration, every US citizen is the descendant of an immigrant. Every human being immigrated from somewhere!

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is the problem!
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But that isn’t the answer the original poster wants.

Clearly our intelligence is lacking as we simply cannot come up with the magic words that the original poster wishes to hear.
We do not see things in their proper perspective.:rolleyes:
 
vz71 said:
But that isn’t the answer the original poster wants.

Clearly our intelligence is lacking as we simply cannot come up with the magic words that the original poster wishes to hear.
We do not see things in their proper perspective.:rolleyes:
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I am not certain we are lacking in intelligence. After all, the OP refuses to explain how my assertion, previously posted, differs in any substantive way from his refusal to distinguish between illegal and legal immigration.
rpp said:
Okay, then separate the difference difference between getting punched in the face during a boxing match and while you are being raped.

Or can you?
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There is a great deal of difference between those who favor legal immigration while opposing illegal immigration and those who “oppose immigration”. Those who seek to enforce existing immigration laws are concerned with the lawlessness, disenfranchisement and exploitation in the underworld of illegal immigrants, and the violence spilling into civil society at large, that has been observed as the direct result of illegal immigration. These people, who represent the vast majority of Americans, are considerably different from those who “oppose immigration” who are, in general, vanishingly small lunatic fringe groups of racists and xenophobes.
 
rpp said:
I am not certain we are lacking in intelligence. After all, the OP refuses to explain how my assertion, previously posted, differs in any substantive way from his refusal to distinguish between illegal and legal immigration.
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One must wonder if the OP rails against the Mexican government, opposing their strict immigration policies. Oh, and there is always the matter of those pristine Mexican jails in which violators are kept until they are granted the privilege of a hearing…
rpp said:
There is a great deal of difference between those who favor legal immigration while opposing illegal immigration and those who “oppose immigration”. Those who seek to enforce existing immigration laws are concerned with the lawlessness, disenfranchisement and exploitation in the underworld of illegal immigrants, and the violence spilling into civil society at large, that has been observed as the direct result of illegal immigration. These people, who represent the vast majority of Americans, are considerably different from those who “oppose immigration” who are, in general, vanishingly small lunatic fringe groups of racists and xenophobes.
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The premise of this thread is nonsensical, since no one in a position of power or authority per se opposes “immigration”. The premise appears to be only an emotional canard, and is of no credit to the OP’s argument.

To the OP: Should we allow homicidal rapists into the US? After all, they are only seeking opportunity! It seems so unfair to deny them entry by putting up a fence and passing laws. If they should not be allowed in, how do you suppose we should screen them out?
 
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