Why do you pray to dead people?!

[po18guy]

Next time, you can also quote Jesus:

Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

To this, I can add only Matthew 16:23b: "You are a stumbling block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.”

 

[po18guy]

The author of the Letter to the Hebrews begins the 11th chapter with the best definition of faith ever written, then fleshes out the chapter by extolling the acts of faith by various figures in the Old Testament, from Abraham to Rahab the harlot. He caps it all off by defining all of them as a Christian’s “cloud of witnesses”

Hebrews 12:1

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

Witnesses must testify as to something, and must also testify to Someone. If these witnesses were dead as many think ( Mt 16:23b “You are a stumbling block to me, you think as man does and not as God does”) they could not be witnesses.

As well, in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19), both of them as well as Abraham are revealed as being alive and conscious. This was related by our Lord, Who can neither deceive nor be deceived.

You might tactfully suggest that your friend read all of the bible and not simply those verses which define his community.

 

[fisherman_carl]

That won’t wash as an apologetics argument with n-Cs since they consider it all ultimate authority. If you use it they will immediately accuse you of not believing the Bible, (something they already pretty much “know” about us Catholics). Naturally that is not at all true…

Ecclesiastes is one of my favorite reads. It’s a mystical book that covers so much more than just philosophical musings, though they are also there.

It is full of insights into Jewish thinking.

Here’s an personal example.

Many years ago I had a wealthy Jewish friend whom I trained privately in Karate and we often chatted all kinds of things. One day we somehow got on the subject of the messiah and his coming and I mentioned that Muslims in Jerusalem had buried their dead outside the Eastern gate intentionally because of OT prophecy is that the messiah will enter that way and Jews cannot pass through a graveyard.

So I asked him if Jews believe in a resurrection of the dead (thinking about the resurrection at Christ’s return would make that a moot point) and his answer was no.

See how that passage shapes and sums up their thinking?

That is not quite right. Jews have traditionally believed in a general resurrection. This is mentioned in several places in the Bible as well as the Jewish Talmud. Also, East of the Jerusalem wall is the mount of Olives Jewish cemetery. Where Jews have been burying their dead for millennia and believe the Messiah to come through the Eastern gate and they would be the first to rise from the dead. There were some Jews that didn’t believe in a resurrection. The NT called these the Sadducees. Most of them were wiped out with the fall of Jerusalem. Modern Jews are spiritual descendants of the Pharisees who believed in the resurrection. When I was in Jerusalem I personally saw the thousands of Jewish tombs on the Mount of Olives, which is also where the garden of gethsemene is.

 

[fisherman_carl]

See also en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_of_Olives_Jewish_Cemetery

And

templemount.org/visittemp.html

 

[Jennifer132]

One thing I recently read, I think it was mentioned by Dr. Edward Sri, was that as parents we are pleased/happy/touched when our children go to one another asking for help, and helping one another. We wouldn’t rush over to them and stop them, saying, “hey! You need to come straight to ME for that request! Don’t ignore me!!”. Rather, we are extremely proud of our children when they go to one another for help! So to, God, as our Father is pleased when his children ask each other for prayer, and when we pray for each other. It doesn’t at all take away from giving God glory. In fact, it pleases him!!

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
Ah.

I was wondering if maybe there was an OT verse or something that, if taken oh-so-literally, could be construed as stating that the dead don’t hear us.

THE REPLY:

I believe there’s something in Ecclesiastes to the effect of “The dead know not any thing,” which is used by groups that champion “soul sleep” until the Judgment.

That “dead people” don’t hear us is not truly relevant, so long as God does. Yet the evidence that “dead people” {Saints} DO hear us has been proven time and time again in and THROUGH Intercessory Prayers.

Lourdes and Fatima are HISTORICAL examples of this:thumbsup: