Why do you regularly attend the tridentine mass?

[ProVobis]

(and that does seem to be the majority).

Everyone wants everything in vernacular. That was the whole point of the Reformation.

Surely Latin and the vernacular can happily co-exist.

They did before Vatican II.

 

[Warrenton]

Is this a point we may all agree on?

FYI, people are not allowed to say the OF is not licit on this forum.

It is fair to say, however, that what the actual V2 dox authorized and the order of mass that ultimately came out are two different things. The discrepancy does not necessarilly speak to the issue of validity.

How much the Novus Ordo tracked the intentions of the bishops who attended V2 is hard to say. At this point in time, it is probably impossible to say with any certainty. The Archbishop of Westminster (UK) was not pleased with it, and wrote publicly about it. Archbishop Bugnini was very pleased with the results. The present pope has, over the course of his lifetime, written different things about the question you posed.

Some (not myself) would answer the question of this title by saying that they prefer the tridentine mass because they don’t have to wonder which changes are in accordance with the mind of the Church and which are not.

 

[MillTownCath]

FYI, people are not allowed to say the OF is not licit on this forum.

It is fair to say, however, that what the actual V2 dox authorized and the order of mass that ultimately came out are two different things. The discrepancy does not necessarilly speak to the issue of validity.

How much the Novus Ordo tracked the intentions of the bishops who attended V2 is hard to say. At this point in time, it is probably impossible to say with any certainty. The Archbishop of Westminster (UK) was not pleased with it, and wrote publicly about it. Archbishop Bugnini was very pleased with the results. The present pope has, over the course of his lifetime, written different things about the question you posed.

Some (not myself) would answer the question of this title by saying that they prefer the tridentine mass because they don’t have to wonder which changes are in accordance with the mind of the Church and which are not.

Thank you very much for your well informed, pragmatic answer.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

What on earth are you rambling on about? Nowhere in the pastoral documents of Vatican II were indications given to create an banal experimental liturgy entirely in the vernacular. You might want to give them a read before trying to follow their directives…

The word “banal” is yours.
The links of English Chants in the New Translation were everything except banal. They were exceptionally good Chants, as I said, though austere, like old Gregorian Chant.
You put things in my mouth to fight what I did not say… That is easy to discuss this way…
Maybe you’ld better learn how was it created the “Silent Night” (in a hurry) or the majestic “Messiah” of Handel (in 1 month)

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

2011 English and other 2011 languages will be long dead before Latin is done. It’s not only the liturgy but Roman law and principles that guide our lives and organizations. Vernacular is an attempt to reach out to the world but this attempt seems to have found unintended consequences such as divisiveness in cultures, resentment against bishops, unstable translations, and excessive national pride as a result.

Christianized Latin has had ups and downs, to be sure. The barbarians of the sixth century tried their best to destroy it and for several hundred years it struggled. The Protestants have been trying for the last 500 years and where has that led to? Only 30,000 denominations without a true direction. Cicero and other classists and the Latin grammar live and if it takes only scholars to keep them alive, the classicists will do so longer than Shakespeare.

No, no, and no.
Please trust the Holy Spirit. Let Him guide you and the Church.
It is not me who is guiding the Church but the Holy spirit. If the Holy spirit wants the Latin to be the Language of Mass in 1000 years, I will go to the mass in Latin ( shall I? 1000 years? Just a supposition).
But, do you remember John XXIII?. What did He say? He felt that the Holy Spirit asked Him to convene a Council, that the Church needed “aggiornamento” (do you remember the word?).
No, it is not Latin that will keep the Church united. That is an heresy.
What will keep the Church united is Christ, Who will send the Holy Spirit to drive the Church through storm and fire and the Church will never sink, with or without Latin.

And, please, be reasonable: which Latin are we talking about? 300 BC? Cicerus and Virgil, the corrupt Latin of the Middle Ages, which is not Latin anymore, at least the latin of Virgil, Julius Caear, Suetonius. If you would put the mass in Cicerus’s Latin, which is pretty difficult, all people who understand Mass Latin, would be with crossed eyes, just not to talk about Virgil style or the archaic latin … Latin is not stable it has got 2500 years of history. When you speak spanish, italian, portugese and french you are speaking 2500 years old latin…

Let’s jump into to wings of the Holy Spirit. We do not know where we are going and sometimes we are afraid, but we are in Good wings…

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

You sound just like the guy in the Vatican II video that was posted, LOL.

TrueLight, do I sound crazy? If so, it is all right, for everybody says that I am half-crazy. I do not agree for I feel that I am totally crazy…

Would you mind to remember the video ???

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

‘Drink the wine, give out communion, use contraception…Latin is bad, everything before Vatican II was evil!’

Where is the video? Was I who posted and did not notice ?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I am confused by this. When I said the new mass contains more scope for individual preference than ever before,

I agree

you said that should not be because the Church is not a democracy.

Then, in this post, you said that individual preference is a good thing.

Individual preference is good but must have the approval of the community. Generally, composers compose and the community adopts the Hymns that tell more to the Community Catholic Heart.



You also said that you like Latin. If every kind of person can have his or her own mass, do you agree that people should be free to attend old masses?

I would think so, that the Tridentine Mass is an enrichment for the Church and that Benedict XVI approved and encouraged (even John Paul II) the Lain Mass. BUT, what is unacceptable is what I find in the SSPX website insults and attacks to the Church. I like Latin Mass but I DO NOT go to their mass as FIRST is the Church, then is the Latin. those guys exceed all norms of polite discussion. So, as there is no onw who, in his right mind, celebrates Latin Masses, I rehearse Gregorian outside the Church, and I read my Cicerus and Virgil in Latin and the New Testament in Greek.

Forget about what I said, please.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Move on, brother. I beg of you.

TrueLight, you treat others badly ?
Naughty girl…
If you ever treated me badly, I never noticed. Do you think I have an elephant skin or a turtoise shell?

 

[ProVobis]

But, do you remember John XXIII?. What did He say?

Glad you asked. He said this:

…Of its very nature Latin is most suitable for promoting every form of culture among peoples. It gives rise to no jealousies. It does not favor any one nation, but presents itself with equal impartiality to all and is equally acceptable to all.

Nor must we overlook the characteristic nobility of Latin formal structure. Its "concise, varied and harmonious style, full of majesty and dignity"4 makes for singular clarity and impressiveness of expression.

Preservation of Latin by the Holy See

For these reasons the Apostolic See has always been at pains to preserve Latin, deeming it worthy of being used in the exercise of her teaching authority "as the splendid vesture of her heavenly doctrine and sacred laws."5 She further requires her sacred ministers to use it, for by so doing they are the better able, wherever they may be, to acquaint themselves with the mind of the Holy See on any matter, and communicate the more easily with Rome and with one another.

Thus the “knowledge and use of this language,” so intimately bound up with the Church’s life, "is important not so much on cultural or literary grounds, as for religious reasons."6 These are the words of Our Predecessor Pius XI, who conducted a scientific inquiry into this whole subject, and indicated three qualities of the Latin language which harmonize to a remarkable degree with the Church’s nature. "For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure to the end of time … of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular."7

papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm

This was a well-accepted encyclical at the time, by the way.

And, please, be reasonable: which Latin are we talking about? 300 BC? Cicerus and Virgil, the corrupt Latin of the Middle Ages, which is not Latin anymore, at least the latin of Virgil, Julius Caear, Suetonius.

You are correct. Latin had been corrupted into Vulgar Latin by the 3rd century. This is from where the Romance languages developed.

I think it’s most reasonable to go with the codified grammar (word-endings) of Cicero and the meanings which the Church codified in the 3rd century (for example, oratio became “prayer,” gratia became “grace” etc.) Any book on Ecclesiastical Latin should have the necessary vocabulary and grammar to learn it.

What’s interesting, though is that we don’t need to really learn how to read Cicero or the Church documents to follow the ordinary Latin Mass at all. There are only a total of 606 distinct words used in the 1962 Missal, of which 240 are nouns, 34 proper names, 99 adjectives, 177 verbs, 23 prepositions, and 33 adverbs.

gmr.sourceforge.net/html/word_list.html

How unreasonable is it to memorize just a fraction of the 606 words if not the entire list? Or if we are not able to memorize anything at all, to be able to follow a handmissal at least.

 

[MillTownCath]

So how was Mass for everyone today?

 

[TrueLight]

So how was Mass for everyone today?

Awesome TLM. Awesome polyphony!

 

[mattkubes]

The word “banal” is yours.

No, it’s actually Pope Benedict’s.

“We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”

Again, read before arguing.

 

[albertjazz]

Forget about what I said, please.

Ir I could only attend a Tridentine Mass here in Norwich England and at my parish Church The Catheral Church of St John the Baptist but there seems no chance,its just the Novo Ordo,and the Banal Liturgy with a protestant feel to it.I feel that the lack of respect to The Blessed Sacrament of the Alter,the lack of belief in the Real Presence and Transsubstantiation,has all lead to this current situation,Holy Communion in the hand and not Kneeling when receiving the king of kings Even the priest would only hold th sacred host between forefinger and thumb in the Tridentine Mass which was once the only Mass,Seeking excuses in sin, Modernism,Materialism. Most of what has happened under the banner of “Spirit of Vactican Two” was not ordained at this council,but has been introduced by the liberal clergy who seemingly want to change the church from within,as many before ,down the years who are now protestants.Mass facing the wrong way.Iconoclsm,Roman Vestments,Happy Clappy Hymns.No communion Rail.Holy Communion taken in the Hand,and condemnation of the Tridentine Mass,the mass for all time,l a culpable sin by these often unkown perpertrators

 

[Bearontherun]

However lovely the Tridentine mass is, we must be ever so thankful that at both forms of the mass Jesus humbles himself so greatly to be there. The reason for mass being wonderful is because Jesus is there.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Glad you asked. He said this:

papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm

This was a well-accepted encyclical at the time, by the way.

You are correct. Latin had been corrupted into Vulgar Latin by the 3rd century. This is from where the Romance languages developed.

I think it’s most reasonable to go with the codified grammar (word-endings) of Cicero and the meanings which the Church codified in the 3rd century (for example, oratio became “prayer,” gratia became “grace” etc.) Any book on Ecclesiastical Latin should have the necessary vocabulary and grammar to learn it.

What’s interesting, though is that we don’t need to really learn how to read Cicero or the Church documents to follow the ordinary Latin Mass at all. There are only a total of 606 distinct words used in the 1962 Missal, of which 240 are nouns, 34 proper names, 99 adjectives, 177 verbs, 23 prepositions, and 33 adverbs.

gmr.sourceforge.net/html/word_list.html

How unreasonable is it to memorize just a fraction of the 606 words if not the entire list? Or if we are not able to memorize anything at all, to be able to follow a handmissal at least.

Oh! No!
A mad latinist! The last thing I wanted to find here !!
You seem to know Latin but you are just too much …
There are 100 million children who cannot go to school and you want them to learn Latin?
Do you understand the difficulty for Chinese to learn Latin?
Latin is a DEAD language !!!

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

No, it’s actually Pope Benedict’s.

“We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”

Again, read before arguing.

So, YOUR CONCLUSION, not mine: the Pope was talking to me !!!
So, your conclusion is that the Pope is saying that we abandon the Latin Liturgy which is excelent and we have now the Vatican II liturgy which is a “banal on-the-spot product” ?

I mean, what are you talking about with outside context quotations?

No, the “banal” is yours, applied to our discussion. Do not take refuge under the Pope’s cassock and take responsability for what YOU said.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Ir I could only attend a Tridentine Mass here in Norwich England and at my parish Church The Catheral Church of St John the Baptist but there seems no chance,its just the Novo Ordo,and the Banal Liturgy with a protestant feel to it.I feel that the lack of respect to The Blessed Sacrament of the Alter,the lack of belief in the Real Presence and Transsubstantiation,has all lead to this current situation,Holy Communion in the hand and not Kneeling when receiving the king of kings Even the priest would only hold th sacred host between forefinger and thumb in the Tridentine Mass which was once the only Mass,Seeking excuses in sin, Modernism,Materialism. Most of what has happened under the banner of “Spirit of Vactican Two” was not ordained at this council,but has been introduced by the liberal clergy who seemingly want to change the church from within,as many before ,down the years who are now protestants.Mass facing the wrong way.Iconoclsm,Roman Vestments,Happy Clappy Hymns.No communion Rail.Holy Communion taken in the Hand,and condemnation of the Tridentine Mass,the mass for all time,l a culpable sin by these often unkown perpertrators

Sorry, no matter what your feelings are, the Church in the first place.
When I go to mass, I prefer to close my eyes for I concentrate better on the words of the Priest and of the congregation.
I simply do not care what is going around.
I just care for Jesus Christ, Whom I adore.
The rest? I do not care…

 

[mattkubes]

I have strong concerns for your sanity. Or at least for your proficiency in the English language.

 

[TrueLight]

I have strong concerns for your sanity. Or at least for your proficiency in the English language.

Well, he’s not a native English speaker, and he knows his English is not perfect, so no need to bring it up.

But yes, he is not exactly supportive of the traditional Latin mass.

Latin is a DEAD language !!!

Pfaffenhoffen, please be respectful of those of us who attend the TLM. Our Pope is helping to open doors for the TLM.

Thank you.