Why do you regularly attend the tridentine mass?

[jmj1984]

Brother JR could chime in on that one as he’s an expert on the Franciscans. From some of what I’ve read over the last few years, it seems to be the case. But I’ll differ to his knowledge as it’s very possible I’m mistaken. Until he or another Franciscan comes by, don’t quote me on it

I recall that TimothyH mentioned that he was invited to go near the Alter during his stay at the monastery he visited, perhaps he could share this experience at some point as well.

I should add 'Is it an original franciscan tradition?'

Lets not forget that just because so and so monastery did it that does not in and of itself make it right, there are enough monasteries that were involved with liturgical abuses. And for that matter there have been massive changes in for example the most recent rule for the third order which to my eyes looks nothing like the original rule.

 

[Melchior_1]

I should add 'Is it an original franciscan tradition?'

Lets not forget that just because so and so monastery did it that does not in and of itself make it right, there are enough monasteries that were involved with liturgical abuses. And for that matter there have been massive changes in for example the most recent rule for the third order which to my eyes looks nothing like the original rule.

Your initial response was:

“sigh”.

I’ve moved once every two years over the course of my life. This doesn’t include being homeless. As a result, my library of books and articles are anywhere from mid-western to eastern Ontario, since not everything made it in the moves (and I got rid of everything except a backpack and a Rubbermaid bin while I was homeless). If there isn’t a reference to it online or in my current literature, I’m going off of memory, which in this case is about five or six years ago. I did have something on this, but it’s not currently in my home. So after some reflection after posting, I figured it’d be good to ask someone more current on the Franciscans to comment in the event that my memory is spotty.

 

[jmj1984]

Your initial response was:

“sigh”.

I’ve moved once every two years over the course of my life. This doesn’t include being homeless. As a result, my library of books and articles are anywhere from mid-western to eastern Ontario, since not everything made it in the moves (and I got rid of everything except a backpack and a Rubbermaid bin while I was homeless). If there isn’t a reference to it online or in my current literature, I’m going off of memory, which in this case is about five or six years ago. I did have something on this, but it’s not currently in my home. So after some reflection after posting, I figured it’d be good to ask someone more current on the Franciscans to comment in the event that my memory is spotty.

Yes sorry about that, I did revise my post.

Well thanks

And glad to hear you are no longer homeless!

 

[Melchior_1]

Yes sorry about that, I did revise my post.

Well thanks

And glad to hear you are no longer homeless!

That’s fine, good sir! Despite our disagreements you’re usually quite cordial, so I wasn’t offended. In hindsight, I should have explained why I didn’t have the references offhand in the previous post

I’m glad I’m not homeless either! Ironically, I met my wife during that time period (but that’s yet another story for another time).

 

[jmj1984]

That’s fine, good sir! Despite our disagreements you’re usually quite cordial, so I wasn’t offended. In hindsight, I should have explained why I didn’t have the references offhand in the previous post

I’m glad I’m not homeless either! Ironically, I met my wife during that time period (but that’s yet another story for another time).

Same to you, I do try to be charitable though I fail sometimes. Ah its no problem, I’ll look forward to (maybe) seeing them, I was just curious.

As for meeting your wife, I guess thats divine providence for you!

 

[JM3]

As for those few people who think the OF is valid,

Must you always attack the Church?

 

[albertjazz]

Must you always attack the Church?

He will ask you not to say such things as the thread could be cancelled…I was told to “Shush” for stating my opinion

 

[Melchior_1]

He will ask you not to say such things as the thread could be cancelled…I was told to “Shush” for stating my opinion

To be fair, your opinion is contrary to that of our Pope, the last Pope, the Pope before him, and the Pope before him.

Catholic Answers is a Catholic site, who believe Catholic things. That includes that the Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form are both valid expressions and valid forms of the Roman Rite. They don’t approve of people saying either one of them is invalid, because frankly that goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Unless you want to argue with the last four Popes.

 

[albertjazz]

To be fair, your opinion is contrary to that of our Pope, the last Pope, the Pope before him, and the Pope before him.

Catholic Answers is a Catholic site, who believe Catholic things. That includes that the Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form are both valid expressions and valid forms of the Roman Rite. They don’t approve of people saying either one of them is invalid, because frankly that goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Unless you want to argue with the last four Popes.

I have never stated that the OF or the EF were not equally valid.What I did say was that many within the Church are hostile to the Holy Fathers wish for the EF to be available to the faithfull,and that here in Norwich England and my parish church the Cathedral Church of St John the Baptist there seems liitle chance of having the privilege to attend an EF Mass…I then said its great for those who wish to attend an O.F Mass to have it available and for those who prefer the E.F the same,but surely you can see that the E.F. is restricted,and more hard to find ,than the O.F I also find the remark" Belief in Catholic things" as to intimate I don,t.I attend a Norvo Ordo Mass every Sunday,since the new translation,which I find a great improvement,and when in a state of grace receive Our Blessed Lord,though I would still prefer the EF.and receiving the Blessed Sacrament by mouth and Kneeling…I hope this clarifys my posts and if Ive said someting in error ,well I apologise

 

[mattkubes]

I feel for you, Albertjazz. And it’s an absurd situation given Pope St Pius V’s statement when he promulgated his missal:

“We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used.”

But then some people seem to be under the impression that the Church was (at least de facto) founded in the 1960s.

 

[albertjazz]

I feel for you, Albertjazz. And it’s an absurd situation given Pope St Pius V’s statement when he promulgated his missal:

“We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used.”

But then some people seem to be under the impression that the Church was (at least de facto) founded in the 1960s.

I was a Roman Catholic in the 1930s and still am today but in temerity I still prefer the E.F form of Mass

The voting graph of this thread seems to bare this out !

 

[CarolVP]

Feelings have nothing to do with it.

Amen! to that.

Someone once told me, when I mentioned that I attend the Traditional Latin Mass, that the “Latin Mass does nothing for me.” I made no reply, but was horrified by her response. My thinking was that we shouldn’t be attending Mass for what we can get, but to worship God in the best way that we can. Any Mass attended with sincere love and reverence, and desire to truly worship God, must be pleasing to Him.

With my attendance of the Traditional Mass, I have, in addition, found priests who give solid sermons. I don’t have to search for a parish where the priest is orthodox. I have also found people who are all attempting to be holy, along with a beautiful, genuinely worshipful, **sacrificial **form of liturgy. I am also able to receive Our Lord Jesus, in the Blessed Eucharist, kneeling and on the tongue. And the High Masses are truly sublime. My youngest son made his First Holy Communion recently, in a Sung Mass of the Traditional Rite, and the singing was absolutely glorious.

Whether the words are in Latin, or not, what are the words actually saying to God?

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

It is worth the half hour drive to attend a Latin High Mass. What the local parishes do and what the parish that celebrates TLM does; there is absolutely no comparison. It is truly a divine ceremony, not a human one.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

To be fair, your opinion is contrary to that of our Pope, the last Pope, the Pope before him, and the Pope before him.

Catholic Answers is a Catholic site, who believe Catholic things. That includes that the Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form are both valid expressions and valid forms of the Roman Rite. They don’t approve of people saying either one of them is invalid, because frankly that goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Unless you want to argue with the last four Popes.

Could I ask you to quote where he said that? I’ve read his last couple of posts and this is what they say:

Its not complicated we had a perfectly good liturgy before the Second Vactiacan Council,the the “Spirit of” all a total diaster for so many reasons.You can dicuss with deep meaning anaylises and meanings,but true Roman Catholics in the Pew just want devotion DEVOTION to our Blessed Lord and nothing else,and the abominations of the liturgy,the excuses in sin,the lack of penance,the lack of reverence to the most holy Sacrament of the alter.Change for changes sake,th attempt to change the church from within to meet the modern word MODERNISM the great heresy

And

But the majority don,t have back pain,this is all stupid,Norvo Ordo for those who want it,but allow the Tridentne Mass for those who wnat it,the fear of the “reformers” and the “Spirit of Vactican Two” is that the Tridentine Mass,given exposure to the faithfull will,in time be preferred !

It’s not quite clear what he meant by the bolded part, I’m guessing he meant the liturgical abuses that occurred. Unless he meant that the new Mass is an abomination (which is obviously false), I see nothing wrong with his opinion.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I chose “other” because I feel the EF Mass best adheres to the true spirit of Vatacin II.

Oh and just to clarify I also still go to the OF. Both are valid Masses and both have Our Lord present in the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[MillTownCath]

Does anyone else sense there is a subtle movement of people in the CC to go back to the EF or use more latin? At the highest level, it seems the Vatican is trying to appease the SSPX and traditional Catholics with this new translation. At lower levels, I see young Catholics, many who were born 25 years after Vatican II, who prefer the EF.

I like the EF Mass and appreciate its beauty, but I hope there isn’t a movement to rewrite Vatican II.

 

[Melchior_1]

I have never stated that the OF or the EF were not equally valid.What I did say was that many within the Church are hostile to the Holy Fathers wish for the EF to be available to the faithfull,and that here in Norwich England and my parish church the Cathedral Church of St John the Baptist there seems liitle chance of having the privilege to attend an EF Mass…I then said its great for those who wish to attend an O.F Mass to have it available and for those who prefer the E.F the same,but surely you can see that the E.F. is restricted,and more hard to find ,than the O.F I also find the remark" Belief in Catholic things" as to intimate I don,t.I attend a Norvo Ordo Mass every Sunday,since the new translation,which I find a great improvement,and when in a state of grace receive Our Blessed Lord,though I would still prefer the EF.and receiving the Blessed Sacrament by mouth and Kneeling…I hope this clarifys my posts and if Ive said someting in error ,well I apologise

Your posting is a bit difficult to read sometimes due to formatting, so my apologies if I misunderstood you. If all you want is more access to the EF, then that’s perfectly understandable if the circumstances allow it.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Does anyone else sense there is a subtle movement of people in the CC to go back to the EF or use more latin? At the highest level, it seems the Vatican is trying to appease the SSPX and traditional Catholics with this new translation. At lower levels, I see young Catholics, many who were born 25 years after Vatican II, who prefer the EF.

I like the EF Mass and appreciate its beauty, but I hope there isn’t a movement to rewrite Vatican II.

The Vatican isn’t trying to appease anyone but rather correct the unfortunate mistakes which have come up. No one can deny that the Liturgy changes but it is the type of change that happens which is important. In the past the change has been organic and over a long period of time. Vatican II wanted the same type of organic change to continue; however, the problem is too much freedom has been given to the Bishops to alter the liturgy based on the “needs” of the people and this has caused us to go way off track.

Based on the documents of Vatican II the EF is still the mass that closely resembles what the Holy Fathers wanted and until the OF resembles this there will be further corrections in the future to the liturgy. I fully believe that the Holy Father and the Vatican are trying to bring the people back to what they wanted the Mass to be. The problem is this clean up is going to take years and years and years especially since a couple generations have already grown up with the OF being the way it is now. We are going to have to slowly backtrack in order to move forward.

 

[ProVobis]

Does anyone else sense there is a subtle movement of people in the CC to go back to the EF or use more latin? At the highest level, it seems the Vatican is trying to appease the SSPX and traditional Catholics with this new translation.

I don’t know how by issuing a retranslation there is a direct push to using more Latin. If anything it solidifies the use of the all-vernacular. But maybe someone can convince me I’m wrong. I hope someone does, in fact.

 

[jonbhorton]

I don’t know how by issuing a retranslation there is a direct push to using more Latin. If anything it solidifies the use of the all-vernacular. But maybe someone can convince me I’m wrong. I hope someone does, in fact.

It gets people more in tune with what the Latin says, undoubtedly.

The issue, as I see it, is NOT the actual language being used, but rather that the language being used is in accordance with what the prayers/liturgy actually say. Otherwise, why aren’t we having Mass in Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew?

Heck, make it Mandarin Chinese- just make sure people aren’t falling into the vortex of heretical doctrine by vague translation. Latin is very specific, specificity is definitely needed in such important aspects of the Mass.

Latin also works out well because it is easily learned with enough exposure. Read the side by side translations… it’s not some mystery language that is not able to be learned. I sat last night and did a comparative reading of Pater Noster with the English next to it. Wasn’t hard to figure out what was being said and how it was structured. Very hard to mess up when kept pure.

The problem, then, becomes the specificity itself in view of the laity- as I can tell. Specific language leaves no room for linguistic bastardization nor ignorance of self-Sin.

One thing I heard at RCIA from a confirmed Catholic, at the OF parish, was “well, they’re really driving home that whole ‘my fault, my fault, my most grievous fault’ thing.” Uh, yeah. Because it is MY fault, MY fault, MY MOST GRIEVOUS FAULT that Jesus had to die for MY sins.

Why do I attend EF? Because it’s safe, secure, externally predictable yet unpredictable internally- in a good way. I go for the transformation of self, the inner-peace, the solemnity, the quiet, the letting go of my own idiotic faults and just worshiping. I don’t have to worry about walking in to see Jesuspalooza Mass, mosh pit, dancers, mimes, and all.