Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

[royal_archer]

How can it appear to be right thing to do if redistribution of wealth is theft, as you practically said earlier? Even a positive result wouldn’t justify it. You’re attempting to appear sympathetic while arguing for some libertarian ideal that has nothing to do with compassion.

Compasion come from free will, the left shows no compasion, they are simply exploiting one group to buy the votes of another group whom they are also exploiting.
Libertarians believe in charity, socialist believe in resource redistirbution under threat of intervention from armed government agents; not very compasionate.

I want the right to keep all my income and I want the kudos from private donations to charity. Right or wrong, this is self-interest, not about the un-met needs of another.

You do not apear to care about the unmet needs of others, only in redistributing the fruits of their labors.

Did you ever stop to think that if you were nice to people who were good workers they would willingly share what they had? instead those who work are treated as nothing more than slave to the slothful masses.

 

[St_Francis]

Some people ignore their sickness, pains, aches, and other limitations and still work hard enough to get jobs with good bennefits. Why should they be forced to subsidize those who are not willing to make the same effort?

Royal Archer,
Some people are too sick to work, or too sick to work much. Pathia would probably love to have sickness, pains, aches, and other limitations at the level to where she could ignore them and get on with her life, but she, along with many others, is unable to do that because they are too great.

When a person cannot *stand, *(and I am speaking generally here), they cannot just ignore that and go off to work. It is not a matter of making an effort and working hard, it is disability to the point where that can *not *happen. I know people who are too sick to work. I know people who are mentally challenged (retarded, as we used to say) who cannot get a good job.

Christ said that the poor we would always have with us. There is a reason for that: we live in a fallen world and there will always be people who *can’t *do what you are able to do.

While I am against the health insurance bill that was passed because I think it will devastate this nation economically, and while I am against the federal government’s intervention in what should be more local decisions, and while I am against the type of government action which disincentivizes work and incentivizes not working, I think that you go too far in the opposite direction, and in doing so, you skip over Catholic teaching. I have been where you are, but I realized that I was in the wrong place.

The Church teaches that to those to whom much is given, much is expected. We live in a society, we are embedded among people. For those to whom God has given good things, living in a developed nation instead of Haiti or Somalia, health, creativity, talent, strength, we benefit from that, but in order to follow God’s true will for that, we need to share the benefits of that, because we wouldn’t have the good stuff if God had not given us the capacity for getting it. To show our gratitude to God, we share with those who are less fortunate than we are.

 

[seekerz]

Royal Archer,
Some people are too sick to work, or too sick to work much. Pathia would probably love to have sickness, pains, aches, and other limitations at the level to where she could ignore them and get on with her life, but she, along with many others, is unable to do that because they are too great.

When a person cannot *stand, *(and I am speaking generally here), they cannot just ignore that and go off to work. It is not a matter of making an effort and working hard, it is disability to the point where that can *not *happen. I know people who are too sick to work. I know people who are mentally challenged (retarded, as we used to say) who cannot get a good job.

Christ said that the poor we would always have with us. There is a reason for that: we live in a fallen world and there will always be people who *can’t *do what you are able to do.

While I am against the health insurance bill that was passed because I think it will devastate this nation economically, and while I am against the federal government’s intervention in what should be more local decisions, and while I am against the type of government action which disincentivizes work and incentivizes not working, I think that you go too far in the opposite direction, and in doing so, you skip over Catholic teaching. I have been where you are, but I realized that I was in the wrong place.

The Church teaches that to those to whom much is given, much is expected. We live in a society, we are embedded among people. For those to whom God has given good things, living in a developed nation instead of Haiti or Somalia, health, creativity, talent, strength, we benefit from that, but in order to follow God’s true will for that, we need to share the benefits of that, because we wouldn’t have the good stuff if God had not given us the capacity for getting it. To show our gratitude to God, we share with those who are less fortunate than we are.

Can you be my poster of the month? Exceedingly well put!

 

[pathia]

12 hours sleep + 8 hour day+2 hours commuting & eating= 22 hours of a 24 hour day.

FYI many of us are lucky to get 6-7 hours of sleep a night before we have to get up for work again. We have no obligation to assist you in getting 12 hours of sleep a night.

I’ve worked plenty of jobs where I really had to ‘work’. That is why I am as run down as I am now. I worked until I could work no more. As for having had so much time before, I was homeless for several years and in the hospital for something like 4months out of the year in my early twenties.

You aren’t employable when you’re in the ICU for bacterial pneumonia run out of control due to a immune system that doesn’t work right. You expect me to work, when I’m in the hospital, or unable to walk? There are days when I get out of bed and I collapse. My body refuses to hold up the weight I have (and I am not overweight, in fact I’m underweight for my height I think. 6’ and I am 130lbs).

I’ve had pneumonia every winter since 1998, my lungs have the capacity of a chain smoker in their 70’s who still hasn’t quit. Every time you get something like that, your lungs are damaged and they never recover completely. I’m not trying to get anyone to pity me, it’s just no matter what anyone says, you simply say ‘you aren’t trying hard enough’. Some of us try as hard as we can to the point of lapsing into stupors. That might be much less than a normal person can do, but as much as I can try to do everything I want, I have to accept that God gave me physical limitations far less than healthy individuals.

 

[cynic]

Compasion come from free will, the left shows no compasion, they are simply exploiting one group to buy the votes of another group whom they are also exploiting.
Libertarians believe in charity, socialist believe in resource redistirbution under threat of intervention from armed government agents; not very compasionate.

Read the post I was replying to.

The free market and complete economic freedom and the fundamentals of libertarianism. Favouring charity is incidental. One need not believe in a neccessity for charity to call oneself a libertarian.

Did you ever stop to think that if you were nice to people who were good workers they would willingly share what they had? instead those who work are treated as nothing more than slave to the slothful masses.

I guess you’re trying to imply that I don’t support myself, but I’ll ignore it. Isolated acts of charity will not pay for chemotherapy.

 

[royal_archer]

…
The Church teaches that to those to whom much is given, much is expected. We live in a society, we are embedded among people. For those to whom God has given good things, living in a developed nation instead of Haiti or Somalia, health, creativity, talent, strength, we benefit from that, but in order to follow God’s true will for that, we need to share the benefits of that, because we wouldn’t have the good stuff if God had not given us the capacity for getting it. To show our gratitude to God, we share with those who are less fortunate than we are.

What you are speaking about is voluntary charity. I am a big supporter of volunteer charity and probably give much more than the average Obama supporter. Where I draw the line is in forcing people at gun point, or through threat of imprisonment/death, to give up what is rightfully theirs. Please provide one biblical reference which endorses government theft for the purpose of paying off a politcal group. The Bible does warn of us of the dangers of big government and teaches that those who do not work should not receive charity; and of course it specifically forbids theft and coveting of neighbors goods.

People like the aforementioned are not comming asking me for an opportunity for them to earn a living, nor are they politely asking for charity. Instead tbey are demanding resources be taken from other by force or through threat of force.

 

[royal_archer]

I’ve worked plenty of jobs where I really had to ‘work’. That is why I am as run down as I am now. I worked until I could work no more. As for having had so much time before, I was homeless for several years and in the hospital for something like 4months out of the year in my early twenties.

You aren’t employable when you’re in the ICU for bacterial pneumonia run out of control due to a immune system that doesn’t work right. You expect me to work, when I’m in the hospital, or unable to walk? There are days when I get out of bed and I collapse. My body refuses to hold up the weight I have (and I am not overweight, in fact I’m underweight for my height I think. 6’ and I am 130lbs).

I’ve had pneumonia every winter since 1998, my lungs have the capacity of a chain smoker in their 70’s who still hasn’t quit. Every time you get something like that, your lungs are damaged and they never recover completely. I’m not trying to get anyone to pity me, it’s just no matter what anyone says, you simply say ‘you aren’t trying hard enough’. Some of us try as hard as we can to the point of lapsing into stupors. That might be much less than a normal person can do, but as much as I can try to do everything I want, I have to accept that God gave me physical limitations far less than healthy individuals.

Do you realy think that the conditions you describe above are representative 35 million people?

Even if it did, it is purely a matter of earthly limitations of the human body. Why should I put my mortal soul in jeapordy by endorsing a mortal sin whose only bennefit is to extend the earthly portion of someones life a few years?

 

[TenBobNote]

How can it appear to be right thing to do if redistribution of wealth is theft, as you practically said earlier? Even a positive result wouldn’t justify it. You’re attempting to appear sympathetic while arguing for some libertarian ideal that has nothing to do with compassion.

You seem to have a notion that libertarianism is evil??

I want the right to keep all my income and I want the kudos from private donations to charity. Right or wrong, this is self-interest, not about the un-met needs of another.

What is wrong with self interest?! How can you have anything but self interest? The only way anything ever happens is because of self interest, its natural. Am I bad because I am selfish and want to go to Heaven? The feeling of doing what is right and having to live with my conscious if I do something against the natural law of God deters me from evil. What other reason can there be for doing the will of God other then being selfish?

 

[royal_archer]

The free market and complete economic freedom and the fundamentals of libertarianism. Favouring charity is incidental. One need not believe in a neccessity for charity to call oneself a libertarian.

Anyone can call themselves anything.

I guess you’re trying to imply that I don’t support myself, but I’ll ignore it. Isolated acts of charity will not pay for chemotherapy.

Isolated acts of charity? you call 35 million people who are suviving off the charity of the working class, isolated.

The charity would be even greater if the recipients were appreciative instead of constantly and rudely demanding more and more from those who are productive.

Again, it is a matter of many people choosing to leach instead of produce. While some may not be suited to working in a factory, they could be suited to other things.

 

[royal_archer]

You seem to have a notion that libertarianism is evil??

What is wrong with self interest?! How can you have anything but self interest? The only way anything ever happens is because of self interest, its natural. Am I bad because I am selfish and want to go to Heaven? The feeling of doing what is right and having to live with my conscious if I do something against the natural law of God deters me from evil. What other reason can there be for doing the will of God other then being selfish?

It is crazy how when someone wants to choose how the fruits of their labor are distributed they are called selfish but society lauds those who wish to consume something they have not contributed to producing.

 

[St_Francis]

What you are speaking about is voluntary charity. I am a big supporter of volunteer charity and probably give much more than the average Obama supporter. Where I draw the line is in forcing people at gun point, or through threat of imprisonment/death, to give up what is rightfully theirs. Please provide one biblical reference which endorses government theft for the purpose of paying off a politcal group. The Bible does warn of us of the dangers of big government and teaches that those who do not work should not receive charity; and of course it specifically forbids theft and coveting of neighbors goods.

People like the aforementioned are not comming asking me for an opportunity for them to earn a living, nor are they politely asking for charity. Instead tbey are demanding resources be taken from other by force or through threat of force.

I understand what you are saying, but a lot of times you write as if the *only *reason not everyone has what they need is that they are lazy, and it is that to which I was objecting.

From the CCC: 2449 Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of **juridical **measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to tithe, the daily payment of the day-laborer, the right to glean vines and fields) answer the exhortation of Deuteronomy: "For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor in the land.’"249

Not from the Bible, but:

2446 St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: "Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs."239 “The demands of **justice **must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity”:240

When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice.241

(Note: questions of justice are within the purview of the government)

The Church teaches that we are to give as individuals, but also that the government needs to support this, and that there will be times when the government will need to do it.

2406 Political authority has the right and duty to regulate the legitimate exercise of the right to ownership for the sake of the common good.189

 

[cynic]

What is wrong with self interest?! How can you have anything but self interest? The only way anything ever happens is because of self interest, its natural.

I didn’t say it was wrong, rather the examples of compassion you used didn’t really have much to do with compassion.

Am I bad because I am selfish and want to go to Heaven? The feeling of doing what is right and having to live with my conscious if I do something against the natural law of God deters me from evil. What other reason can there be for doing the will of God other then being selfish?

You only care about immediate relatives because that happens to be the will of God? Not every thought, emotion and action can be explained by self-interest.

 

[royal_archer]

I understand what you are saying, but a lot of times you write as if the *only *reason not everyone has what they need is that they are lazy, and it is that to which I was objecting.

However the other side drags out the extreme rare and unconfirmed situation and represents it as the norm. Lets face it of that purported 35 million all but a couple hundred thousand are able bodied and capable of being more productive than they are. of those who are incapable of being productive, the vast majority have the capability of offering something else to society. Now if you were to get them out of the mix the residual could easily be taken care of via charity.

From the CCC: 2449 Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of **juridical **measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to tithe, the daily payment of the day-laborer, the right to glean vines and fields) answer the exhortation of Deuteronomy: "For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor in the land.’"249

Not from the Bible, but:

2446 St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: "Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs."239 “The demands of **justice **must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity”:240

When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice.241

(Note: questions of justice are within the purview of the government)

The Church teaches that we are to give as individuals, but also that the government needs to support this, and that there will be times when the government will need to do it.

The government can do it out of resources generated by the government. for instance oil rich states using some of the proceeds to help the needy. this how ever does not support the notion that the government can justly take from one person and give to another who is simply unwilling to take care of themselves.

As an individual I can not horde resources to the detriment of society. However this is not a matter of hording resources and not giving others a fair opportunity to partake. This is a case where some create resources and others demand access to those resources with out contributing. They have the ability to partake of those resources they just don’t choose to make the effort.

2406 Political authority has the right and duty to regulate the legitimate exercise of the right to ownership for the sake of the common good.189

I can not use my ownership of something to harm others. Also the government can use emminent domain to buy stuff from individuals for the purpose of the public good assuming a fair price is paid for the property.

However, welfare (including government run medicine), is not an item of common good, with the roads, military, courts, etc all people in society bennefit, with welfare only a select few bennefit. As such welfare is not for the common good, it is for the bennefit of a political group.

 

[St_Francis]

…

From the political standpoint, I mostly agree with you. The point I am trying to make has nothing to do with politics. The only thing that we can judge your ideas by on the internet like this is what you write. When you write as if *everyone *could just ignore their pain and get a better job, that is all we have to judge your ideas by. I am simply trying to alert you to that, and perhaps encourage you to change that impression you are giving, or your mind if that is truly what you think (which is not what I think you think).

 

[royal_archer]

From the political standpoint, I mostly agree with you. The point I am trying to make has nothing to do with politics. The only thing that we can judge your ideas by on the internet like this is what you write. When you write as if *everyone *could just ignore their pain and get a better job, that is all we have to judge your ideas by. I am simply trying to alert you to that, and perhaps encourage you to change that impression you are giving, or your mind if that is truly what you think (which is not what I think you think).

I have made over 3000 posts here. My thoughts have been articulated clearly through a combination of those postings. It is not possible to make every single post reflect every nuiance of perspective to the concepts I am posting. Perhaps some are too willing to make an unfair judgement of me.

 

[jaimepsalm63]

I’ve only read a few of the posts, so if someone else mentions this…please forgive me. Have any of you READ the bill? I have read about 1,000 pages of it so far and am reading more every night. This bill is not what it seems. The govt. will be in your bank accounts (not a moral issue, just an irritating one). The govt. will give you end of life counseling to help you decide what medicines you are ALLOWED by THEM (a moral issue), they WILL ALLOW assisted suicide (a moral issue), they WILL NOT cover most preexisting conditions as they said (a moral issue), they ENFORCE that a company MUST have a separate fund for women who seek abortions (a moral issue). They will cut off medical care after a certain age (a moral issue). The govt will fund embryonic stem cell research with your taxes(a moral issue).

There is so much more to this bill and I can keep going, but don’t want to fill the entire page up with what is in this bill. It makes me angry seeing people remaining ignorant and just accepting blindly what lying thieves tell them. Don’t we have a right to know the truth?

Please don’t think that I believe the current system to be perfect, I don’t. I would love to have everyone have the same care ALL human beings deserve. We all deserve respect and health care regardless of income. However, it isn’t right to tell someone when they can die (abortion, assisted suicide, “end of life counseling”). Look how our current society cares not for the living…Terri Shiavo was told her life was needing to end to satisfy her husbands wants…etc.

I used to be a legislative aide, but decided my soul was much more important. Please, read the bill then comment so you know fact from fiction/truth from lies. There are a lot of moral issues in the bill that are being ignored.

 

[pathia]

Do you realy think that the conditions you describe above are representative 35 million people?

Even if it did, it is purely a matter of earthly limitations of the human body. Why should I put my mortal soul in jeapordy by endorsing a mortal sin whose only bennefit is to extend the earthly portion of someones life a few years?

Wow…I…don’t even know what to say in reply to this. I don’t think I can dialog with you anymore. I’m not even worth a few pennies, apparently. So I’ll just go now.

 

[SoulBeaver]

Hello,

I don’t make too many posts around here, but I figured I’d give my (name removed by moderator)ut to a thread that has obviously gotten way off-track.

As a German citizen living in said country, I find it shocking that there is so much resentment, or at least disagreement, with the new health care reform. I read it- it doesn’t look bad.

The fact that the state forces you to get health care and that you have to pay for their health insurance is basically forcing you to do something nice for someone who maybe hasn’t deserved it. Or maybe they did.

It’s nothing new for us here in Germany. The state handles social security, child care, schools, health insurance, etc. So, to put it bluntly, once I get out of college I will be paying for other people’s health care, child care, social security, rent, and unemployment (we have a law, Hartz IV, that gives every non-working citizen a set amount of money each month until they find another job. There are people that abuse the system by taking the money every month and not going to work. I personally know two such people.)

Yet we aren’t that much in debt. Not nearly as much as America is even though we’re forcing a lot more policies onto our people. We can’t even be homeschooled!

What I want to say is that, looking at Germany’s way of handling all those things and America’s, I must honestly say, your way sucks.

I don’t want to offend anybody with this, but I want to give you the feeling I have when I know I’m taken care of in all respects. Be it becoming a father, dropping out of college or facturing my skull. I feel safe.

Moreover, I can have health care without having a job because the state financially supports me going to college. I feel safe, and secure, and I don’t have to worry about having anything bad happen to me.

It will still suck. Immensely. But I won’t go into a deep dark pit because I wasn’t able to afford health care or anything like that. This is good. People should want to have universal health care in my opinion. Sure, you are forced to pay, but if you had a low-paying job, you’d certainly want rights to health care too, right? (and yes, I know people will say no to this.)

I know a lot of people will disagree with me, and that’s because of conflicting mentalities. I’ve never really lived in the US, but I know from several accounts that people were happy and feeling lucky that their job gave them a minimum of health care. Is this really how America wants to safeguard their citizens?

Freedom is not the right for the citizen to go and do what he wants. It is accepting his freedom in bounds of the laws of the state so that his life, wellbeing, property and pursuit of happiness are even made possible. Being denied basic health care is not living up to those standards

Just because you won’t agree to it, and the state forces you to pay for it, doesn’t make it immoral or bad. It is, in my opinion, a very good law and a step forward for America. I really hope people will stop complaining about the morality of forcing a person to pay for other people, which is nice, even if they abuse it, and the morality of no longer being able to choose to not have health care.

So, just a message from yea person across the ocean ^^ Don’t take it too personal, just sharing my thoughts in a probably too passive-aggressive way. So if it comes across as that, rest assured that I didn’t mean to attack you personally and that I’m open for your thoughts.

Cheers!

 

[Cheshire_Cat]

It is staggering to think that someone who calls themselves a Christian can think more about a tax than who is going to benefit from it. the USA amazes me. So called Christians like some of those posting here are the sort that make the Catholic Church seem so out of date and out of touch with what Christianity is about. You make right wing political points on a subject that has nothing to do with politics, its about loving your neighbour not a chance for a Republican rant. You need to read some of the Latin American Liberation Theology to find out what being a Christian is about and who Jesus came to save, it was not the rich.

 

[TenBobNote]

You only care about immediate relatives because that happens to be the will of God? Not every thought, emotion and action can be explained by self-interest.

Would you be so kind as to give me an example, please?