Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

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The tax rate for unearned income and capital gains is close to the lowest it has been for a long time.

Yet when we had higher rates, especially on corporations, the economy grew at its fastest rates. Why? Because when the rates are higher, the corporations reinvested it in their companies and benefited from the cash flows from depreciation.

Now we have a class that don’t even want to pay the much lower rates and engage in every maneuver to avoid paying any possible taxes.

It is our present low tax rate that makes people not want to invest in building businesses etc.

Peace
People are not investing in businesses as much as they have in the past out of fear that the government will come in, nationalize their industry/business and destroy what they have worked hard to make.

When you complain about people not wanting to pay taxes why not go after the approximately 30 % who pay no taxes or the majority of Americans who pay less than their proportional share.
If an innovative and motivated individual pays taxes worth 1/300 millionth of the annual budget and then makes even more money by providing goods and services we as consumers value, we should encourage it, not punish it. Instead we should be going after those who are not paying 1/300 millionth of the budget and hold them accountable for their fair share.
 
People are not investing in businesses as much as they have in the past out of fear that the government will come in, nationalize their industry/business and destroy what they have worked hard to make.

When you complain about people not wanting to pay taxes why not go after the approximately 30 % who pay no taxes or the majority of Americans who pay less than their proportional share.
If an innovative and motivated individual pays taxes worth 1/300 millionth of the annual budget and then makes even more money by providing goods and services we as consumers value, we should encourage it, not punish it. Instead we should be going after those who are not paying 1/300 millionth of the budget and hold them accountable for their fair share.
:sleep:
 
Sleep all you want. If Catholics stopped acting like communists, this country wouldn’t be in such grave danger of literally losing its soul.
 
Sleep all you want. If Catholics stopped acting like communists, this country wouldn’t be in such grave danger of literally losing its soul.
The person Im reacting to talks business this busniness that, and the heck with the human factor. To him business can do no wrong. The worship of business by some in our society is a big spiritual problem also.
 
The person Im reacting to talks business this busniness that, and the heck with the human factor. To him business can do no wrong. The worship of business by some in our society is a big spiritual problem also.
Monkey business in this country, please look it up:
The Savings and Loan theft of billions in the 80’s
The stock market theft and crash (black Friday) in 87-92
The mortgage theft 2004 to 2006
The investment financial theft 2001 to 2006

Business cannot police itself.
 
Monkey business in this country, please look it up:
The Savings and Loan theft of billions in the 80’s
The stock market theft and crash (black Friday) in 87-92
The mortgage theft 2004 to 2006
The investment financial theft 2001 to 2006

Business cannot police itself.
I’m pretty sure RA will find some excuse for those.
 
Would Jesus have approved of the good Samaritan having to pay for that stranger’s healthcare at the point of a Roman spear?
Are there any Bible verses from the New Testament that oppose socialism?
 
Monkey business in this country, please look it up:
The Savings and Loan theft of billions in the 80’s
The stock market theft and crash (black Friday) in 87-92
The mortgage theft 2004 to 2006
The investment financial theft 2001 to 2006

Business cannot police itself.
Awe come on. they are doing a great job with the oil spill, aren’t they?

Peace
 
Medicare is a Govenment program, but it is a lot more efficient than For Profit Health Insurance. It doesn’t pay ridiculous salaries to its executives, and their stockholders in turn do not benefit from denying health care to people. In most of the civilized/industrialized world, this would be criminal. If ours was really the best system, why is it no one else is trying to make their system more like what the Insurance Cartel likes best?

The concept of subsidiarity actually has limited applicability to this debate. First it presumes the local operation to be competent, but when thousands of Americans are dying and/ or going bankrupt, that competence is not credible. Additionally, what about my wanting to help people in other states? When I know people in other places, even other continents, need help, why would I limit my concern to those nearest to me? The fact that others may be more responsible for them doesn’t mean that I should not care, or act. It seems that in many circumstances it is through my government that I can best help the most people in the most efficient manner.
Exactly. Thank you for your entry. I agree with you but was not able to express my opinion as accurately as you have. How is it any different than trying to end hunger in the world or setting out to offer aid to another country during a time of need? I try to give more than my share whenever I can, but it should never be a hardship to give when I have enough. Blessing
 
I believe what is in question is not whether we should have any taxes, but rather what the limits of taxes and government should be. The country was founded on a principle of limited government, both due to a valid concern about the dangerous and excessive power of government and for the love of liberty and productive spirit of the American people. These values were enshrined in our founding documents, including our binding Constitution. Many of us continue to hold those values.

For those that don’t, the question now is, if we are not to strictly and carefully limit government powers and the extent of taxation and mandated services, then what limit should be placed?

Taxing everything 100% and have the government provide all services is communism, and has been proven not to work. If we don’t go to that extent, where do we stop short? Why? What limits a government that views its own governing documents as “flexible,” to the point that nearly anything can be read between the lines of a reinterpreted, “living” document? These are the concerns many of us have. Are they not valid? Are they not questions we should be asking ourselves, always?

What of our Catholic principle of subsidiarity? At what point do we violate that when we shift our burdens to the government? At what point does the State become idol and savior?
Agree 100% as well.

Communism and socialism don’t work, have never worked, but we still have people who want to cram it down our throats whether we like it or not.
 
Exactly. Thank you for your entry. I agree with you but was not able to express my opinion as accurately as you have. How is it any different than trying to end hunger in the world or setting out to offer aid to another country during a time of need? I try to give more than my share whenever I can, but it should never be a hardship to give when I have enough. Blessing
How is it different?!?!

Look, “ending world hunger” and “providing adequate health care” are wonderful goals. We should try to pursue them. The principle of subsidiarity is partly about HOW we pursue them!

How should we try to end world hunger? Should we set up some world government to take care of the problem, and send all of our “excess” resources (all money not required for basic sustenance) to this government so that our resources can be redistributed until things like world hunger and healthcare inadequacies are solved?

NO. Not only does that approach not work, it is a violation of a variety of liberties and of the principles of charity (whereby we are required to be involved personally, not abdicate our responsibility by delegating to some higher authority or having all of our ability for charity stolen from us by that higher authority). It is also a violation of this principle of subsidiarity, whereby we should handle our problems at the lowest level possible first.

This is not just a moral obligation. It is also a recognition of how things work. The greatest efficiency and effectiveness is achieved at the lowest level possible. Yes, some things require efforts by larger communities, working off of economies of scale, but you still just try to resort to the smallest level possible.

From the Catechism:
1883 Socialization also presents dangers.** Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative.** The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which "a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to **co- ordinate **its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good."7

(co-ordinate, not usurp or replace/supercede)

1884 God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature. This mode of governance ought to be followed in social life. The way God acts in governing the world, which bears witness to such great regard for human freedom, should inspire the wisdom of those who govern human communities. They should behave as ministers of divine providence.

1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.

Also see:
1887** The inversion of means and ends, which results in giving the value of ultimate end to what is only a means for attaining it**, or in viewing persons as mere means to that end, engenders unjust structures which “make Christian conduct in keeping with the commandments of the divine Law-giver difficult and almost impossible.”

The ends of providing adequate health care to all and ending world hunger do not justify any means in doing so, and can in fact end up “engendering unjust structures” in our government and in viewing people (“the rich,” or health care professionals) as mere means to an end. These are some of the evils of the approach that is being taken with universal health care in this country.
 
How is it different?!?!

Look, “ending world hunger” and “providing adequate health care” are wonderful goals. We should try to pursue them. The principle of subsidiarity is partly about HOW we pursue them!

How should we try to end world hunger? Should we set up some world government to take care of the problem, and send all of our “excess” resources (all money not required for basic sustenance) to this government so that our resources can be redistributed until things like world hunger and healthcare inadequacies are solved?

NO. Not only does that approach not work, it is a violation of a variety of liberties and of the principles of charity (whereby we are required to be involved personally, not abdicate our responsibility by delegating to some higher authority or having all of our ability for charity stolen from us by that higher authority). It is also a violation of this principle of subsidiarity, whereby we should handle our problems at the lowest level possible first.

This is not just a moral obligation. It is also a recognition of how things work. The greatest efficiency and effectiveness is achieved at the lowest level possible. Yes, some things require efforts by larger communities, working off of economies of scale, but you still just try to resort to the smallest level possible.

From the Catechism:
1883 Socialization also presents dangers.** Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative.** The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which "a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to **co- ordinate **its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good."7

(co-ordinate, not usurp or replace/supercede)

1884 God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature. This mode of governance ought to be followed in social life. The way God acts in governing the world, which bears witness to such great regard for human freedom, should inspire the wisdom of those who govern human communities. They should behave as ministers of divine providence.

1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.

Also see:
1887** The inversion of means and ends, which results in giving the value of ultimate end to what is only a means for attaining it**, or in viewing persons as mere means to that end, engenders unjust structures which “make Christian conduct in keeping with the commandments of the divine Law-giver difficult and almost impossible.”

The ends of providing adequate health care to all and ending world hunger do not justify any means in doing so, and can in fact end up “engendering unjust structures” in our government and in viewing people (“the rich,” or health care professionals) as mere means to an end. These are some of the evils of the approach that is being taken with universal health care in this country.
All these platitudes don’t matter when the currency is based on nothing (fiat). If we had a gold based dollar Id be fine with all this.
 
If the healthcare bill does indeed end up covering more unisnured people, and gives access to medical treatment for people that can’t access it right now, then it’s a good thing.
One of the fundemental human rights is healthcare. I think that selfeshness plays a part in this healthcare debate. For one group of citizens to have health coverage, and another excluded is immoral, unjust, and inexcusable.
 
If the healthcare bill does indeed end up covering more unisnured people, and gives access to medical treatment for people that can’t access it right now, then it’s a good thing.
One of the fundemental human rights is healthcare. I think that selfeshness plays a part in this healthcare debate. For one group of citizens to have health coverage, and another excluded is immoral, unjust, and inexcusable.
If someone quits their job because they can now get healthcare for free is it fair to the people who keep working?
 
Are there any Bible verses from the New Testament that oppose socialism?
2 Thessalonians - Chapter 3
6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we urge you, brothers, to keep away from any of the brothers who lives an undisciplined life, not in accordance with the tradition you received from us.
7 You know how you should take us as your model: we were not undisciplined when we were with you,
8 nor did we ever accept food from anyone without paying for it; no, we worked with unsparing energy, night and day, so as not to be a burden on any of you.
9 This was not because we had no right to be, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to imitate.
10 We urged you when we were with you not to let anyone eat who refused to work.
11 Now we hear that there are some of you who are living lives without any discipline, doing no work themselves but interfering with other people’s.
12 In the Lord Jesus Christ, we urge and call on people of this kind to go on quietly working and earning the food that they eat.
13 My brothers, never slacken in doing what is right.
14 If anyone refuses to obey what I have written in this letter, take note of him and have nothing to do with him, so that he will be ashamed of himself,
 
Awe come on. they are doing a great job with the oil spill, aren’t they?

Peace
It is the rightfull place of government to force them to clean up the mess they made and to force them to make retribution to those who were harmed.
 
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