Why do you think forced healthcare is immoral?

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The Health Care Insurance reform program is structured to try to get everyone to buy their own insurance, so the government and the non-profits that run most of the hospitals dont have to pick up the uncovered costs and/or pass them along to others. By getting earlier and more appropriate care, fewer people will die, and fewer people will need more drastic care.

The states already have Medicaid to cover the indigent, but there are many people working in jobs that have no health benefits, and health insurance is priced beyond their reach. Part of the goal of the program is to make it possible for these people to afford insurance.

Health Insurance provided by for profit Corporations will aim to serve the most profitable, and avoid the least profitable. For various reasons, poorer people are less profitable than wealthier people. The reason that we have Medicare is that the elderly were seen as not particularly profitable, and so as a class were poorly served by the market. (We didn’t just “socialize” the costs of care for the elderly, but developed an insurance plan that they pay premiums into. Not unlike the current suggestions for general reform.) This is a simple problem of economics which nearly every other civilized country has recognized, and tried to deal with in a humane manner. We on the other hand have rapidly increasing health care costs, and increasing numbers of people having their insurance cancelled.

The idea that " if you dont work you dont eat" has any application here is ludicrous. Most of the people we are talking about expanding coverage to are working, but cannot afford a product which has to meet Wall Street’s standards for profitabilty. And many are veterans of military service. In most other countries, sending profits from Health Insurance to Wall Street, draining resources away from health care, is a crime.

Generally reported numbers say Medicare, our government run health insurance, costs between 5 and 7% of paid claims to function, whereas private health insurance companies costs from 10 to 15%. One can further argue that the profits drain is a cost which people who cannot afford coverage likewise cannot afford.

And of course the best times for the growth of the middle class in this country were the times of Eisenhower when the progerssive tax rates were really progressive. Americans made money, many from union jobs, and so they had money to spend and to save. As taxes have become less progressive, the median wage stalled, the rich have gotten far richer, the poor poorer, and the middle class is fading. (Along the way, our industrial firms have been warning us that they cannot compete internationally when every other competitor has significantly lower health care costs to factor into their prices.) And we can expect Health Insurance companies to follow that trend, focusing on those who can afford its product. The question for society is if we are to treat Health Insurance as a luxury good, and allow health insurance, and timely access to health care, to become exclusive the province of the wealthy. Will we allow The Market to control our health care system, or will we use The Law to structure our markets? Will we take reponsibility for our country, or abandon it to those who are only interested in their own profits?
 
All these platitudes don’t matter when the currency is based on nothing (fiat). If we had a gold based dollar Id be fine with all this.
Platitudes? You’re calling the Catechism teachings platitudes? With such a throwaway argument as just “fiat money,” as if it’s supposed to make everything else irrelevant?
 
One of the fundemental human rights is healthcare. I think that selfeshness plays a part in this healthcare debate. For one group of citizens to have health coverage, and another excluded is immoral, unjust, and inexcusable.
This idea keeps getting vomited up as if it hasn’t been addressed at all.

Health care is not now nor could it ever have been or be a “fundamental” human right. It can only be a “right” or, more properly termed, a “privilege” granted by a government.

No one in previous ages could ever have dreamed of health care as a “right,” because it simply wasn’t available. Nothing can be a “fundamental human right” that has not always at all times in all places existed.

Further, you cannot have a fundamental human right to another person’s service. Asserting health care as a “right” is making a claim on a health care provider’s service, saying essentially that it must be granted to you, and forcing other people to provide it. It’s the very same type of argument that would justify slavery.

As for selfishness or “exclusion,” no one is being forcibly denied health care. So you’ve tossed out a red herring.

Health care, like it or not, is a scarce resource. It is governed by economic laws. The demand is (and in the case of health care, to a certain extent always will be) far in excess of supply. Only some of the demand can be met.

So how should we ration the supply to meet the demand? What demands should be met? The economic, free market system cannot be wholly abandoned without destroying innovation and efficiency, which are its primary fruits. Competition drives productivity, greater supply, lower prices, and more innovation and efficiency. This is known. The problem we have is there isn’t enough competition.

The debate isn’t about whether health care should be available, it’s about what is the most effective way to make it available, and what means are justifiable to the ends. We cannot use evil (liberty-destroying) means to achieve good ends. The Catholic Church is clear on this. Ends do not justify means. That in itself should give you pause in the seemingly-blanket approval of any attempt to expand the availability of health care.

Aside from the immoral aspects of the health care bill, it is simply not the most effective means. In fact, it increases costs (this is now recognized by all parties), while trying to meet increased demand by decreasing compensation to health care providers (this is the immoral claim that you have a right to another person’s service, regardless of compensation–aka, ultimately, slavery), and by reducing services (rationing–see Obama’s comments about “unnecessary” tests and services, such as the Administrations recommended reduction in mammograms).
 
If the healthcare bill does indeed end up covering more unisnured people, and gives access to medical treatment for people that can’t access it right now, then it’s a good thing.
One of the fundemental human rights is healthcare. I think that selfeshness plays a part in this healthcare debate. For one group of citizens to have health coverage, and another excluded is immoral, unjust, and inexcusable.
I dont know of ANY fundamental rights that are predicated on taking ones persons moeny and giving it to someone else.
 
I dont know of ANY fundamental rights that are predicated on taking ones persons moeny and giving it to someone else.
In the spirit of good discussion… 🙂

The government takes my money (in the form of taxes) to pay the wages of the local police and fire department.

Not sure if this would to provide for “life” or “the pursuit of happiness”, but I’d say the safety of society would be a fundamental right.
 
The Health Care Insurance reform program is structured to try to get everyone to buy their own insurance, so the government and the non-profits that run most of the hospitals dont have to pick up the uncovered costs and/or pass them along to others. By getting earlier and more appropriate care, fewer people will die, and fewer people will need more drastic care.
If this is all it did it would not be so offensive or oppressive. Making people pay their own way is a good thing. Unfortunately this bill does not make individuals pay for their own health care, it simply shifts the cost in a new and overly beuracratic way.
The states already have Medicaid to cover the indigent, but there are many people working in jobs that have no health benefits, and health insurance is priced beyond their reach. Part of the goal of the program is to make it possible for these people to afford insurance.
This law does not reduce overall costs. Instead it increases costs by mandating insurance offer services that are not not deemed worth the cost by many people.
Health Insurance provided by for profit Corporations will aim to serve the most profitable, and avoid the least profitable. For various reasons, poorer people are less profitable than wealthier people. The reason that we have Medicare is that the elderly were seen as not particularly profitable, and so as a class were poorly served by the market. (We didn’t just “socialize” the costs of care for the elderly, but developed an insurance plan that they pay premiums into. Not unlike the current suggestions for general reform.) This is a simple problem of economics which nearly every other civilized country has recognized, and tried to deal with in a humane manner. We on the other hand have rapidly increasing health care costs, and increasing numbers of people having their insurance cancelled.
There is nothing stoping charities or other not for profit agencies from offering insurance with out a profit. We do not need any laws to allow for this. The wealth of the purchaser has nothing to do with the profit, my insurance company could not care less about how much I earn. The government on the other hand has a direct interest in my income and does consider wealthier people to be more profitable.
The idea that " if you dont work you dont eat" has any application here is ludicrous. Most of the people we are talking about expanding coverage to are working, but cannot afford a product which has to meet Wall Street’s standards for profitabilty. And many are veterans of military service. In most other countries, sending profits from Health Insurance to Wall Street, draining resources away from health care, is a crime.
Once again, profit is a non issue since non profit entities could easily compete if profit was driving cost. What is driving cost is excessive service. This law will continue to drive up costs. In most countries people are trying to immigrate to the U.S.
Generally reported numbers say Medicare, our government run health insurance, costs between 5 and 7% of paid claims to function, whereas private health insurance companies costs from 10 to 15%. One can further argue that the profits drain is a cost which people who cannot afford coverage likewise cannot afford.
reference?
And of course the best times for the growth of the middle class in this country were the times of Eisenhower when the progerssive tax rates were really progressive. Americans made money, many from union jobs, and so they had money to spend and to save. As taxes have become less progressive, the median wage stalled, the rich have gotten far richer, the poor poorer, and the middle class is fading. (Along the way, our industrial firms have been warning us that they cannot compete internationally when every other competitor has significantly lower health care costs to factor into their prices.) And we can expect Health Insurance companies to follow that trend, focusing on those who can afford its product. The question for society is if we are to treat Health Insurance as a luxury good, and allow health insurance, and timely access to health care, to become exclusive the province of the wealthy. Will we allow The Market to control our health care system, or will we use The Law to structure our markets? Will we take reponsibility for our country, or abandon it to those who are only interested in their own profits?
Consider the companies that are loosing business to countries like Mexico and China. Do you want us to have the quality of life that they have?
 
In the spirit of good discussion… 🙂

The government takes my money (in the form of taxes) to pay the wages of the local police and fire department.

Not sure if this would to provide for “life” or “the pursuit of happiness”, but I’d say the safety of society would be a fundamental right.
In that exchange the person providing the money is getting a service in return. With few exceptions the police offer a service for a fraction of the cost if contracted individually. The police also have to work from a position of authority. if there is a dispute between me and an intruder, I need police who can be an impartial advocate for the laws of the land. This is not the case with medicine which is a private exchange between individuals.
 
I believe it is unconstitutional for the US Federal Government to force the citizens to BUY anything and then, if they don’t buy, to fine them. People would object to this no matter what the government was trying to get us to buy.

And I believe charity ceases to be chairty if it is forced on those donating.
But we already do this all the time with taxes. You get tax credits if you buy certain things…that energy efficient washing machine, new windows, etc. THis is just another tax credit…if you buy insurance you get a credit…if you don’t, you are charged a new federal tax. It’s done all the time.
 
I think unjust taxes are immoral. Catholic church clearly recognizes that there is such thing as unjust tax.

Here are some examples of unjust tax:

-taxes to fund public school system
-taxes to fund child ‘protective’ services
Really? I find it so sad that you feel that way. I am grateful that the majority of Americans don’t.
 
I think education is the parents responsibilty, just like feeding, clothing, etc… There are already milions of people homeschooling with far superior results than public schools, why can’t everybody else do the same ? It’'s not your neighbour’s responsibility to pay for education of your children.
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But what about the parents who refuse to educate or who are uneducated themselves? Their kids are just bum out of luck? :confused:
 
But we already do this all the time with taxes. You get tax credits if you buy certain things…that energy efficient washing machine, new windows, etc. THis is just another tax credit…if you buy insurance you get a credit…if you don’t, you are charged a new federal tax. It’s done all the time.
The fault in you premise is that those other taxes and credits are proper. If my neighbor hang dries their clothes and I get a fancy new dryer every couple of years why should I be getting money that my neighbor paid into taxes?
 
But what about the parents who refuse to educate or who are uneducated themselves? Their kids are just bum out of luck? :confused:
If parrents neglect their kids, they need to be punished for it, not rewarded with higher levels of welfare (for having more kids than they can afford). If Parrents are not capable of taking care of their kids, their are plenty of would be parrents who are willing and capable.
 
Really? I find it so sad that you feel that way. I am grateful that the majority of Americans don’t.
The way those organizations (government run schools & protective services) are run is extremely innefficient and the way the cost is distributed is very unfair. Those two factors introduce a degree of injustice. However, there is a just basis for taxes contributing to those two programs. For the record their is also some basis for using taxes for medical issues such as the Center for Disease Control, monitoring epidemics, dealing with biological threats, some research and development, but not individual treatment.
 
Perhaps that money could be invested and doing good for our economy rather than put in trusts if the tax code didn’t make doing so detrimental.
Money in trusts is in the ecconomy. The trust is not a mason jar in the back yard, it is in stocks, bonds, savings, etc. That gives others capital to use in building businesses that provide goods and services.
 
But we already do this all the time with taxes. You get tax credits if you buy certain things…that energy efficient washing machine, new windows, etc. THis is just another tax credit…if you buy insurance you get a credit…if you don’t, you are charged a new federal tax. It’s done all the time.
My friend, The law clearly states that you are not taxed for failing to buy healthcare. It is spelled out as a FINE. A fine is not a tax. Different words mean different things. A fine is a penalty for disobeying a law, or a US gov favorite, regulation.
You can be forced by this law, when in full effect, to be penalized for failing to buy a product from a private company. Do you believe that is just, or dare I ask, constitutional?

As to the original posts question. I don’t see where you are asking about the healhcare law recently passed. As to a literal reading of the original question. Yes forced healthcare is immoral. ( Except where the individual is incompetent to understand the consequences of not accepting healthcare, Incompetence legally is usually because of age or mental defect.) In China they force some of what is called healthcare even here in the US. Many euphemistically call it “reproductive services” I call it what it is, the murder of unborn human beings. Do you think that forced healthcare is immoral?

As a general rule I find forcing a human being to do against their will repulsive. I could be wrong, but off hand I do not recall Jesus forcing anybody to do anything against their will. I believe it was Ceasar, and by proxy his legions, forcing an oppressed populace to act against their will.
 
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