Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

[distracted]

i’ll ask the question again…where does it CLEARLY STATE that he prefers the rc?..doesnt the bible state that " wherever two or more are gathered in my name there i am?"…isnt that directly at odds with the supposition that the rc is the only “true church?”…it doesnt say "wherever two or more catholics…or two or more baptists, etc…btw…what about the borgia’s?..one of them was a pope who engaged in simony, murder and incest…he’s part of that “unbroken line”…do you think that’s what god intended?..what about the three popes?..which one was “gods chosen” and where was the “real” church located?..avignon?..rome?..do you think that the political squabbles and internecine situations that held sway for centuries were what god had in mind?..fd

where is the church where there are no sinners???

Please, please, please tell me… because i surely would like to go to that church… (of course, once i join, it won’t be a sinner-less church anymore… but oh well…) .

anyhow, why can’t it be true both that “where 2 or more are gathered…”

and “On this rock i will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it” / Today’s Mass readings (found in Non-Catholic Religions)

have you read today’s Mass readings? They are from the New American Standard version which Protestants also use. the rdgs speak of the House of God… Jesus was IN that House… and called it His Father’s House…

Then there’s the issue of the Ark of the Covenant…

The Real Presence is real… but you will only find out when you go There… (and stay for awhile … preferably in total silence… )

 

[distracted]

i’ll ask the question again…where does it CLEARLY STATE that he prefers the rcfd

God prefers his own Church to those that are made by humans…

 

[Scardinoz]

As someone with great respect for the Roman Catholic church, I’m not interested in debating, but I will clearify one thing if you want clearification.

It is a foregone conclusion that Jesus Christ founded only one Church.

1. Why then, do Protestants ignore this fact and continue to splinter the Body of Christ?
2. There is no Protestant who can trace his or her church back any farther than the Protestant revolt of the early 16th century.
   Where is the verse which authorized them to break from the true Church in the first place?

Generally speaking, protestants believe the Church, founded by God, to mean all believers in the death and resurrection of Christ who live out their lives in a way to honor him, not specifically meaning only members of the Roman Catholic church.

By this logic, a protestant would believe that all churches, including the Roman Catholic church, are segments of the catholic (universal) church.

 

[jmcrae]

i’ll ask the question again…where does it CLEARLY STATE that he prefers the rc?

He founded the Catholic Church - it has nothing to do with “preference.” The SDA, Baptists, and so on, didn’t even exist until more than 15 centuries later.

What is your preference? To belong to what Christ founded, Himself, or to belong to an imitator, or to make up your own?

Me, I’d rather belong to what Christ founded, Himself.

…doesnt the bible state that " wherever two or more are gathered in my name there i am?"…isnt that directly at odds with the supposition that the rc is the only “true church?”…

It’s not “at odds” because this is a very Catholic thing to do. Those who are gathering in Christ’s name are doing a Catholic thing.

it doesnt say "wherever two or more catholics…or two or more baptists, etc…btw…what about the borgia’s?..one of them was a pope who engaged in simony, murder and incest…he’s part of that “unbroken line”…do you think that’s what god intended?..

What about Judas? He, too, was an Apostle. If you are looking for perfection, good luck - not even Jesus could find it.

what about the three popes?..which one was “gods chosen” and where was the “real” church located?..avignon?..rome?..do you think that the political squabbles and internecine situations that held sway for centuries were what god had in mind?..

Notice that God in His great wisdom chose a little girl to sort that particular problem out. Her name was St. Catherine of Sienna. (God seems to really favour little girls - either that, or little girls are just really good at listening to God and doing His will.)

 

[distracted]

As someone with great respect for the Roman Catholic church, I’m not interested in debating, but I will clearify one thing if you want clearification.

Generally speaking, protestants believe the Church, founded by God, to mean all believers in the death and resurrection of Christ who live out their lives in a way to honor him, not specifically meaning only members of the Roman Catholic church.

By this logic, a protestant would believe that all churches, including the Roman Catholic church, are segments of the catholic (universal) church.

some protestant think the Catholic Church is the AntiChrist… or the pope is, rahter.

gee, you’d think that someone like… Hitler or stalin would be the anti-Christ… but no, its the pope…

hmmm… go be figuring…

 

[Detales]

Dear Distracted,

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. I started regular attendenc at Mas at 3yo, as best memory serves. I attended Roman Catholic schools taught by clergy from grade three through twelve. During that time I had clergry as friends, as did the family, as we often had visitng priests as guests. I often went on retreats both as a part of school functions and as a free agent. I regualarly did novenas and was actually mentioned in one of them given by a redemptorist Father. I regularly met and talked with my friends about the Catholic Church and was very active in proselytizing. I excelled in catechism, and in high school was part of a small team the won a rather large trophy for knowledge of Catholic theology “against” larger teams. I was knowledgeable to the point that I was invited once to a conference that excluded me only on discovery that I was not ordained. I was considering, for some time, going to seminary. Until their passing, a number of well respected priests were close firends. The last one that died had a crowd so large at his funeral the large school gym where it was held couldn’t hold them. I dearly loved him as a teacher and Mentor through the many years of our asociation. I was also an altar boy and often volunteered to do maintainance work at our Church. I was in a Church Choir, as was my Dad, who was very acitve in Catholic and other social justice activities. My Mother is a devoted and prayerful person who still goes to Mass at 86yo, and somtiemes it is I who take her there. I have been from my early youth to this day a student of religion and philosophy both academically and on my own, having as well met with and talked with clerics of both Catholic and other faiths for many years, some whose names I believe you would easily recognize. I have read and considered everything regarding the Catholic faith that has come to me since childhood. I have been as well graced by several mystical experiences of various magnitudes.

That is a short synopsis of the extent of my exposure to the Catholic Church.

 

[workingman]

some protestant think the Catholic Church is the AntiChrist… or the pope is, rahter.

gee, you’d think that someone like… Hitler or stalin would be the anti-Christ… but no, its the pope…

hmmm… go be figuring…

I just thought I would throw this into the ring just as a snipit. The Pope pictured as the AntiChrist was made popular by our favorite litte monk Luther. He had a picture of the pope that I believe is still in The Book of Concordia where he is pictured as the AntiChrist. I believe that is where the concept started.

p.s. I am not looking to pick a fight on that topic either. I would look it up in my copy but I packed it up as I am in the process of moving. :hammering:

 

[distracted]

jpaul1953, there IS indeed, one Truth. And there are a zillion interpretations of it or we would not be having this conversation.

not so… we are arguing (Catholics and Protestants) because Protestants don’t accept The Catholic Church and haven’t for 500 yrs (gee… why does it seem so much longer.?)

There is no truth outside the Catholic Church other than subjective truth… personal truth… the truth that belongs to each individual… andthat truth must stand or fall by its comparison to aAbsolute Truth, Catholicism… In other words, all souls have to pass through the Church (Christ) before getting to Heavne… If they happen to find truth somewhere else, that’s great… but whatever so called truth they find must conform to the truth of Catholicism… a God-made religion… the only true religion there is.

And clearly you have not looked into Catholic history other than through Catholic eyes.

:

ther is not other way to look at history. Catholics (real ones) do not lie or distort truth… at least not on a grand scale…
they’re too afraid of eternal Hell to do that…

those who believe in OnceSavedAlwaysSaved… well, heck, they’ll spout off anything… because… Why not?? There’ no consequences… It’s the old I’m saved no matter what thing…

I don’t trust non-Catholic history books… Sorry, if that makes me narrow minded… well, Hey… Jesus said that the way to Heavne is NARROW…

 

[Detales]

Distracted, Thanks for your “narrow” (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Worthy5]

I am so, so sorry that that has been your experience. I would say uncatagorically that treating you and Catholics in general in this way is at best uncharitable. At worst it is, well, I won’t say.

Jon

Jon what do you think motivated Martin Luther? And second, what authority did he have? God Bless

 

[RobbyS]

Name one or two reasons you think God allowed Protestantism.

I think one reason might be that Catholicism is so… difficult, that maybe God wanted there to be an “easier, softer” way that would lead people to Christ (and He knew that many would then be led to the RC Church)?? Just a thought.

Also, i think that Protestants generally focus on different things than Catholics do, different “aspects” of God, things that are nonetheless very important… like, well… i just think that sometimes they are more… friendly… & i feel they may trust in God’s mercy more than a lot of Catholics…

Luther represents a laudable effort to return to the roots, say in his emphasis on “the gospel of Paul.” In the other hand, the humanists had already pointed out the need for this. and to call for reforms. The real disagreements, however , was less over Paul’s notion of grace than the role of the Church in the conveying of to to sinners. Unable to find grace in the teachings and ritual of the Church, he sought it in the Bible. The new Greek Bible of Erasmus seemed to provide a key, a way of connecting immediately with the teachings of the Apostles. Ironically, as we ought not to know, the Latin Vulgate probably conveyed a truer version of the original Greek text, since moist of it was based on older Greek texts than were available to Erasmus. The best thing about the Reformation was that it put the average Christian closer to that text; the worst thing was that it provided him with a poorer understand of it.

 

[Scardinoz]

some protestant think the Catholic Church is the AntiChrist… or the pope is, rahter.

gee, you’d think that someone like… Hitler or stalin would be the anti-Christ… but no, its the pope…

hmmm… go be figuring…

That is rather sad and I am aware that a minority do believe that. It is out of genuine ignorance and lack of understanding. Most do not even know that there was no church before the Catholic church.

those who believe in OnceSavedAlwaysSaved… well, heck, they’ll spout off anything… because… Why not?? There’ no consequences… It’s the old I’m saved no matter what thing…

I’ve seen this concept associated with protestants quite a bit here but I’ve never actually seen it in real life. Genuine protestants I’ve known all believed in what I would call ‘relational salvation’. In this theology, one must not only believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead (Satan himself does not deny this!) but also seek a relationship with God through prayer, avoidance of sin, and praying for forgiveness.

Most, in my experience, seriously overlook the significance of communion and do not believe that a person must absolutely be baptized to go to heaven.

 

[ron77nyc]

Notice that God in His great wisdom chose a little girl to sort that particular problem out. Her name was St. Catherine of Sienna. (God seems to really favour little girls - either that, or little girls are just really good at listening to God and doing His will.)

The men were too busy fighting over control of land and people. Girls are not interested in that stuff.

 

[Matariel]

Why did God allow Protestantism? The same reason He allowed Hinduism, Buddhism, or Islam.

People have the free will for whatever they wish.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Why did God allow Protestantism? The same reason He allowed Hinduism, Buddhism, or Islam.

People have the free will for whatever they wish.

Yikes!

You make a mess of your God if you realize it or not by saying this from my lense.

You mention belief that existed before humans had any way of knowing yours.

You scare me with your triumphalism.

 

[1beleevr]

distracted:As much as I hate to disagree with you(again), I believe that the Bible speaks to ALL of us! Jesus wasn’t wasting His breath, when He said, “Come to Me, all ye who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” And was Phillip in church when the eunuch got saved and baptized? One of my favorite Bible verses, comes from the OLd Testament:Jeremiah 29:11:For I know the plans I have for you, to give you a future, and not destroy you. Sorry brother, but we don’t see eye to eye, once moreBut thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, and I still love you!

 

[1beleevr]

God Is…!!! And because He is, we are! And the winner of the “I can type more posts than you” award goes torum roll please…Nancy Dalrymple:thumbsup:W-O-W!! Let’s see, how the heck do we know that Jesus didn’t mean His red=letter words for ALL of us, who are in Him? I believe that where 2 or more Christians are gathered, wherever that may be; Jesus is there! Last year, at a nursing home, there were about 8 residents near the nursing station. I was on my way out after visiting my mother, when I just started singing, “Michael, Row the Boat Ashore”! The ladies started singing along, clapping their hands, some crying. WE all talked about Jesus, and how awesome God is, for the next half hour:thumbsup:So, yes, I believe that where two or more are gathered, Jesus will be there!

 

[1beleevr]

Hey, everyone: Time to hit the sack; finally, got a busy weekend planned, but just wanted to wish all the fathers out there, regardless of denomination or belief, or non-belief,HAPPY FATHER’S DAY! And on Sunday, let’ all remember our Heavenly Father, without whom we wouldn’t be here:thumbsup:

 

[wisdomseeker]

jpaul1953, there IS indeed, one Truth. And there are a zillion interpretations of it or we would not be having this conversation. Your reference to the President of Iran deliniates exactly why this is so. And clearly you have not looked into Catholic history other than through Catholic eyes.

Wow. Nancy. :hypno:

where do you go to find out about Jesus? do you go to the muslims? or hindus? or mormons? or jehova’s witnesses? or budhism? where do you go to find the true teachings of Jesus? if you are sick, do you go to a lawyer or an accountant, or do you go to a doctor?

:byzsoc:

 

[thunderballs75]

It seems to me that the reason Martin Luther did what he did was originally because of vast corruption. If it weren’t for the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation would never have been proposed, and the corrupt practices may have continued unabated.