Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

[PJM]

I know those verses very well, your point is?

I also that if it were my chuose (my free will) to follow Christ it would never have happened. It was God’s effectual call that changed my will to follow him

reply:

My dear Brother in Christ

Back in the sixties we had a 1947 and a 1949 AC tractor. I think My cousin is still using them!

On to spiritual issues,

I fear that your not being completely honest with yourself. Quite natural, we often work hard to justify our position.

I am a conserative, informed, fully practcing Roman Catholic, and as such I strive to avoid making blanket statements, but I am completely sure, without making a persoanl judgement, that your wrong:shrug:

As I mentioned in a prior post, If I understand correctly, your a fallen away Catholic? Putting asside for the moment the reason(s) why you made such a rash decission, I will point out why I know that God cannot (not will not… CANNOT) be "happy with your decession. Not necessarly in priority order, but as they occur to me…

1. You walked away from God’s Son. You had Jesus Himself, Truly. Really and Substanually avail to you in the Eucharist of Holy Communion. Not a sign, NOT a mere symbol, but the same Jesus born of Mary, who Died of the Cross, Rose from the Dead, and remains in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, under a Sacramental Veil. As I said before, I’ll be happy to walk you through the Bible and give irefruitible evidence of God’s claim.
2. You left behind the Seven Sacraments, all of which were instituted by Christ to give us the grace necessary for Salvation.
3. “Justification by Faith Alone” is a lie! I can prove it!
4. How can you know if God has actually forgiven your sins?
   John 20:"**19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ** And Keep in mind the deciples were Catholic, indeed, Roman Catholic, and the RCC has historical evidence of 2000 years of Apolostoic Succession!

And feel free to look these up in your (I assume) KJV… I have read your new and improved version too.

When was your church founded and by whom?

1. Dispite some major errors of the clergy and laity, the RCC doctrines and dogma’s on matters of Faith and MORALS have not changed. The RCC is still the worlds Moral Compass! The fact that many choose to ignore it, including many catholics (small c) does not alter that fact.
2. The RCC is the ONLY, I repeat, THE ONLY Church founded by Jesus Himself, and you my friend walked away from it and thing God is pleased with you. Have you forgottem that one of God’s attributes is Divine Justice. God has to be just, has to judge your actions. One can male “lite” of this fact, but know that God will not!

If God prevented Moses from entering the Promised land because he “struck the rock twice” (in anger) instead of once, which is what God mandated, it is obvious that God is indeed Loving and Merciful, but “Vengence is mine say’s the Lord.”

1. I’ll stop at “seven” the perfect number: There have to be good, solid, valid, Holy Spirit Led reasons why the RCC in over 2000 years old! Gotta be:thumbsup:

I could go on but if your reject this post, it may not be God who is inspiring you?

The Holy Spirit led you to this CA Forum for a reason, right?

God bless you Brother, may you hear God speak and actually listen to Him

PJM m.c.

 

[leopolis1]

I think one reason might be that Catholicism is so… difficult, that maybe God wanted there to be an “easier, softer” way that would lead people to Christ

How can protestantism lead people to God? How can disobedience lead people to God? I don’t think protestants can be saved as they have bread and wine instead of the Body and Blood and no confession to purify their souls. There are no different ways to God. The only way to God is the Catholic Church. God cannot be illogical and cannot give us different ways to be saved: for some people it’s buddism, for others hinduism, protestantism or paganism. It doesn’t work that way. People believe in lies and easy solutions.

 

[SIA]

Name one or two reasons you think God allowed Protestantism.

I think one reason might be that Catholicism is so… difficult, that maybe God wanted there to be an “easier, softer” way that would lead people to Christ (and He knew that many would then be led to the RC Church)?? Just a thought.

Also, i think that Protestants generally focus on different things than Catholics do, different “aspects” of God, things that are nonetheless very important… like, well… i just think that sometimes they are more… friendly… & i feel they may trust in God’s mercy more than a lot of Catholics…

1. Because it was totally necessary to bring God’s Church back on track. The RCC in the early 1500’s was not in a politcal position to know the err of its ways. The RCC was practicing much that was not Biblical and not Holy. The Reformation was absolutely from God. thank God for Martin Luther and his tenacity and perserverance. He risked his skin and would have been burned at the stake by Rome if it weren’t for God’s intervention.
2. To better focus upon his Holy Word as the supreme authority of Christians today and forever. So that folks know that all needed for salvation is contained in Holy Scripture. This was even proclaimed at the Coucil of Trent.

 

[sambos671]

How can protestantism lead people to God? How can disobedience lead people to God? I don’t think protestants can be saved as they have bread and wine instead of the Body and Blood and no confession to purify their souls. There are no different ways to God. The only way to God is the Catholic Church. God cannot be illogical and cannot give us different ways to be saved: for some people it’s buddism, for others hinduism, protestantism or paganism. It doesn’t work that way. People believe in lies and easy solutions.

Protestants are not buddhist, are not hindu’s aren’t even Muslim. People who have left the Catholic Church have done so because of an absence of Christ. Many Catholics recieve the Body and Blood and are only eating and drinking their own condemnation. How many Catholics are baptized such? How many have recieved 1st Communion? How many have been Confirmed? All of them saved except the ones too young to do so. How many Catholics voted for Obama against the teachng of Parish priest and still recieve communion? How many Catholics are divorsed? How many Catholics have commited adultery? How many priest have abused people? How many Popes sitting in Peter’s Chair have ordered murders? How many Bishops have had illigitamate Children? Jesus surely isn’t in these acts! Humble people in search of Jesus find that too many Catholics have taken their covenant for granted and forgoten Jesus altogether! The ones who become they go looking for Jesus and are blessed for it. I would put up an average protestant’s knowledge of Scripture to the average Catholic. Which is Strange for the CCC states that Sacred Scripture work hand in hand with Tradition. Many Catholics rely soley on tradition making the so called same error of Protestants who rely soley on Scripture. Certainly one should not be without the other! Yet how many Catholics know Scripture? How many catholics would rather bury ST. Joseph in their yard to sell their house? Jesus says this that the world would know how we are his by how we love each other. Many priest, and laity have gotten wrong on this thus abuse. Many protestants live the way Jesus intended. Many Catholics follow their ritual but miss christ altogether very similar to the pharisees. Sorry for being harsh but thats how I see it. On the day of judgement I believe their will be many protestants accepted and many Catholics that will not. I’m not saying there won’t be many catholics who are aqccepted but I am saying being Catholic in name only isn’t the same as being a Christian. Don’t forget the parable. Two sons one said he would not do the father’s bidding but does and the other who says that he would but does not which is more acceptable to the father? The one who did the father’s bidding!

 

[SIA]

Protestants are not buddhist, are not hindu’s aren’t even Muslim. People who have left the Catholic Church have done so because of an absence of Christ. Many Catholics recieve the Body and Blood and are only eating and drinking their own condemnation. How many Catholics are baptized such? How many have recieved 1st Communion? How many have been Confirmed? All of them saved except the ones too young to do so. How many Catholics voted for Obama against the teachng of Parish priest and still recieve communion? How many Catholics are divorsed? How many Catholics have commited adultery? How many priest have abused people? How many Popes sitting in Peter’s Chair have ordered murders? How many Bishops have had illigitamate Children? Jesus surely isn’t in these acts! Humble people in search of Jesus find that too many Catholics have taken their covenant for granted and forgoten Jesus altogether! The ones who become they go looking for Jesus and are blessed for it. I would put up an average protestant’s knowledge of Scripture to the average Catholic. Which is Strange for the CCC states that Sacred Scripture work hand in hand with Tradition. Many Catholics rely soley on tradition making the so called same error of Protestants who rely soley on Scripture. Certainly one should not be without the other! Yet how many Catholics know Scripture? How many catholics would rather bury ST. Joseph in their yard to sell their house? Jesus says this that the world would know how we are his by how we love each other. Many priest, and laity have gotten wrong on this thus abuse. Many protestants live the way Jesus intended. Many Catholics follow their ritual but miss christ altogether very similar to the pharisees. Sorry for being harsh but thats how I see it. On the day of judgement I believe their will be many protestants accepted and many Catholics that will not. I’m not saying there won’t be many catholics who are aqccepted but I am saying being Catholic in name only isn’t the same as being a Christian. Don’t forget the parable. Two sons one said he would not do the father’s bidding but does and the other who says that he would but does not which is more acceptable to the father? The one who did the father’s bidding!

Brilliant post!! Thank you for it!

 

[JPUSC]

There are many Protestants in name only and many Protestant pastors that have been proven of sexual abuse or other scandals too. You are lumping all Catholics together when all the things you said could be applied easily to Protestants as well.

I’m sorry you had a terrible experience when you were a Catholic but there’s no reason to be so anti-Catholic now. If you are happy at your new church, then that’s good. No reason to spread around the anger and animosity you have against the Church.

You said that “Jesus says this that the world would know how we are his by how we love each other” and I don’t think your post is showing a lot of love.

 

[SIA]

There are many Protestants in name only and many Protestant pastors that have been proven of sexual abuse too. You are lumping all Catholics together when the things you said could apply to Protestants as well.

I’m sorry you had a terrible experience when you were a Catholic but there’s no reason to be so anti-Catholic now. If you are happy at your new church, then that’s good. No reason to spread the anger and negativity around.

You said that “Jesus says this that the world would know how we are his by how we love each other” and I don’t think your post is showing a lot of love.

It appears to be much the same kind of love that many Catholics show Protestants here and besides, what the poster said was true. If you wish to speak about the Catholic child abuse sex scandal, I would gladly offer that there have been 107 Catholic clergy members that have been convicted of the such abuse. Can you produce any information of a scandal of that magnitude in any Protestant church?

 

[JPUSC]

reformation.com/

ALL Protestant denominations - 838 Ministers

147 Baptist Ministers

251 “Bible” Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical)

140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers

38 Lutheran Ministers

46 Methodist Ministers

19 Presbyterian Ministers

197 various Church Ministers

“We would be naïve and dishonest were we to say this is a Roman Catholic problem and has nothing to do with us because we have married and female priests in our church. Sin and abusive behavior know no ecclesial or other boundaries.”

Rt. Rev. William Persell, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Chicago, Good Friday Sermon, 2002.

 

[SIA]

reformation.com/

ALL Protestant denominations - 838 Ministers

147 Baptist Ministers

251 “Bible” Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical)

140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers

38 Lutheran Ministers

46 Methodist Ministers

19 Presbyterian Ministers

197 various Church Ministers

Thanks for your response. It certainly is funny that I didn’t hear a word about any of these in the news media.

 

[JPUSC]

Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year

By Rose French
Associated Press Writer
June 18, 2007

The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members.

The figures released to The Associated Press offer a glimpse into what has long been an extremely difficult phenomenon to pin down — the frequency of sex abuse in Protestant congregations.

christianpost.com/article/20070618/released-figures-offer-glimpse-into-protestant-sex-abuse-problems.htm

insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm

The mainstream media has all but ignored the recent Associated Press report that the three major insurance companies for Protestant Churches in America say they typically receive 260 reports each year of minors being sexually abused by Protestant clergy, staff, or other church-related relationships.

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286153,00.html

A simple google search yielded these results.

 

[SIA]

Oops, I forgot to mention the other 573 documented sexual abuses by Catholic clergy.

www. Bishop-Accountability.org

 

[sambos671]

There are many Protestants in name only and many Protestant pastors that have been proven of sexual abuse too. You are lumping all Catholics together when all the things you said could be applied easily to Protestants as well.

I’m sorry you had a terrible experience when you were a Catholic but there’s no reason to be so anti-Catholic now. If you are happy at your new church, then that’s good. No reason to spread around the anger and animosity you have against the Church.

You said that “Jesus says this that the world would know how we are his by how we love each other” and I don’t think your post is showing a lot of love.

You got me wrong. I’m not anti-Catholic! I would that every Catholic live according to the magisterium of the church! I am responding to a specific statement which I quoted. I personally believe the statment to be without knowledge or without a honest look at the Catholic Church. The debate is not weather or not protestants have their faults but why Catholics left the Church. IF it’s improper Chatacheses (which I believe it is) then who’s to blame! too many Catholics rely soley on their Tradition when Traditon doesn’t work alone but with Scripture! Protestants if anything Causes the Church to look at herself objectively so that it may improve. I honestly believe there will be future event when the entire christianity will reunite and be fully Catholic.

 

[JPUSC]

Oops, I forgot to mention the other 573 documented sexual abuses by Catholic clergy.

www. Bishop-Accountability.org

It’s harder to document the abuse cases for Protestants because you guys are so fragmented.

Allegations and confirmed cases of sex abuse by priests against children in the Catholic Church have been well documented since widespread reports of abuse first surfaced in the Boston area in the early 2000s.

But tracking allegations and confirmed cases of misconduct by Protestant clergy is an elusive task because Christianity’s other ecclesiastical division is wildly diverse, congregational and sometimes staunchly independent compared to Catholicism’s centralized hierarchy.

stopbaptistpredators.org/article07/child_sex_abuse_by_protestant_clergy.html

Protestants’ numbers are harder to come by and sketchier because the denominations are less centralized than the Catholic Church. Many congregations are independent, making reporting even more difficult.

nytimes.com/2007/06/16/us/16protestant.html

 

[Melchior]

Name one or two reasons you think God allowed Protestantism.

I think one reason might be that Catholicism is so… difficult, that maybe God wanted there to be an “easier, softer” way that would lead people to Christ (and He knew that many would then be led to the RC Church)?? Just a thought.

Also, i think that Protestants generally focus on different things than Catholics do, different “aspects” of God, things that are nonetheless very important… like, well… i just think that sometimes they are more… friendly… & i feel they may trust in God’s mercy more than a lot of Catholics…

That the Reformation happened is a failure of the Church - not the original Reformers. They were reacting to an ugly time in the church. They overreacted but still God gave the Church a wake up call through it. Protestantism continues to serve as a mirror and should be a constant reminder to remain vigilant and not become worldly as it certainly did during that period. That God allows Protestantism and blesses Christians in it should remind Catholics that they are responsible to end it by showing devout Christians that the Church is worth coming home too. And alot of that responsibility should fall on lay Catholics to lead by example and fellowship. The Catholic Church has been lame and cold on the lay level most of my life. It is finally waking up and why I am leaving my nearly 30 year sojourn in Protestantism because there is finally something alive to come back too. We should not blam Protestants for the Churches failures we should see them as a mirror so we can see our blemishes and clean them.

 

[SIA]

It’s harder to document the abuse cases for Protestants because you guys are so fragmented.

I could make the same case for Catholics worldwide.

 

[JPUSC]

You got me wrong. I’m not anti-Catholic! I would that every Catholic live according to the magisterium of the church! I am responding to a specific statement which I quoted. I personally believe the statment to be without knowledge or without a honest look at the Catholic Church. The debate is not weather or not protestants have their faults but why Catholics left the Church. IF it’s improper Chatacheses (which I believe it is) then who’s to blame! too many Catholics rely soley on their Tradition when Traditon doesn’t work alone but with Scripture! Protestants if anything Causes the Church to look at herself objectively so that it may improve. I honestly believe there will be future event when the entire christianity will reunite and be fully Catholic.

Yes, I believe that Christianity will be one body again also. It’s only been 500 years since the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic Church’s unification efforts with the Orthodox are going well too.

 

[Truthstalker]

Name one or two reasons you think God allowed Protestantism.

I think one reason might be that Catholicism is so… difficult, that maybe God wanted there to be an “easier, softer” way that would lead people to Christ (and He knew that many would then be led to the RC Church)?? Just a thought.

Also, i think that Protestants generally focus on different things than Catholics do, different “aspects” of God, things that are nonetheless very important… like, well… i just think that sometimes they are more… friendly… & i feel they may trust in God’s mercy more than a lot of Catholics…

When we are done here, let’s do a thread on why God allowed Catholicism.

Christianity is being crucified with Christ. There is nothing easy about it apart from the grace of God whether one is Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant.

distracted, I think you really want to reach Protestants. One thing that stands in the way are posts like this that convey the message that you regard Protestantism as a filthy thing to be regarded, if at all, at arm’s length with repugnance and disgust. Not a way to win friends and influence people, particularly as many Protestant communities actually are a lot closer to the Catholic position than many Catholics are. We are regarded, officially in Church teaching, as fellow-Christians and brothers, but then there are those who regard us as unclean illegitimate rebels and posts like yours do nothing towards reconciliation. I may have erred in taking you off my Ignore list.

 

[Steadfast]

Name one or two reasons you think God allowed Protestantism.

I think one reason might be that Catholicism is so… difficult, that maybe God wanted there to be an “easier, softer” way that would lead people to Christ (and He knew that many would then be led to the RC Church)?? Just a thought.

Also, i think that Protestants generally focus on different things than Catholics do, different “aspects” of God, things that are nonetheless very important… like, well… i just think that sometimes they are more… friendly… & i feel they may trust in God’s mercy more than a lot of Catholics…

He didn’t allow it, He mandated it and brought it about as a necessary reformation of His church.

We hold the truth in earthen vessels, we are human, we are fallen, there will always be sin, wrong-headedness, schism, but there remains only one church, not defined by pedigree or episcopal affiliation and this is the great truth to be sifted from all the mess of the history of the church.

 

[PJM]

How can protestantism lead people to God? How can disobedience lead people to God? I don’t think protestants can be saved as they have bread and wine instead of the Body and Blood and no confession to purify their souls.

Actually they can be and are my friend.

We are delighted to welcome new members, but if you post a “persoanl opinion” not supported by fact, God willing, you’ll get called on it.

The RCC teaches that “all salvation is somehow mysteriously connected to the RCC,” and that the RCC is the only Church actually founded by Jesus Himself, and thus is the ONLY source for the single TRUTH, on issues of Faith and Morals.

There are no different ways to God. The only way to God is the Catholic Church. God cannot be illogical and cannot give us different ways to be saved: for some people it’s buddism, for others hinduism, protestantism or paganism. It doesn’t work that way. People believe in lies and easy solutions.

One has to be a Baptized Christain, obey His Commandments, love others as you wish to be loved, and obey His teachers. Other Christian’s can and often do these very things.

Jesus is "The Truth (singular), The Way (singular), and The Light, also singular, and while in there Fullness these are only found in the only Christian Church actually founded by Jesus Himself, and the only Church (now I include the Eastern and Western Orthodox Churches) that have access to graces through the Seven Sacraments (ALL instituted by Jesus Himself) to give us a greater opportunity for Salvation, which is His RCC.

Issiah 55: 6 "Seek the LORD while he may be found, call upon him while he is near; 7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. **8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. **

We are directed to “Judge them by there fruits.” BUT ONLY God can judge motives and hearts.

Look at the *Grahams and Focus On The Family’s James Dobson. *Both are doing very good work for the Lord! Amen!

God is both All Loving and All Just, He permits Other Churches (does NOT cause them) because sometimes, and in isolated cases, they fill a need not being filled ( note I did not say “not to be filled by His RCC, only that they are not being filled.”) and Jesus tells us, to teach, share, love and leave the judgement up to Him.

The Catholic Church is “The One true Church” but not the only avenue to heaven.

God bless you, keep posting

PJM m.c.

 

[PJM]

Protestants are not buddhist, are not hindu’s aren’t even Muslim. ** People who have left the Catholic Church have done so because of an absence of Christ**.

My dear friend,

This is a BLASPHEMY! I have proven to you otherwise, even using your KJV bible!

Your ranting and raving are not doing you any spiritual good on any level.

If I were to ask you to describe the meaning of the entire bible in a single word, would not that word be LOVE?

It is difficult to think of you as a Christian with the content of lies, mis-understandings, and mis-represenations you are putting forth.

I have invested much time and prayer in my post to you, and you have yet to respond to a single truth I have sharred.

What are you afraid of?

Come Holy Spirit, fill our minds and hearts with love and understanding! God bless you,

PJM m.c.