Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

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I’ve read this discussion, and it had some interesting ideas throughout, especially from the point of view of a non-catholic believer, which I am. The one point of view that I found both prominent and troubling is summed up in the quote above.

I am not Catholic, but attended a Catholic university, where I took classes taught by priests and sisters on the faith and was surrounded by young Catholics at every turn. And I have to say I never once experienced the vitriol and hatred of protestantism I’ve seen here.

I just don’t get it…50+ years since Vatican II and the advent of ecumenics, and still some of you fight this battle, stoke these fires, as if you were in the trenches of WWII. To hear you speak, protestantism is an unspeakable evil, a blight, at best a great evil that God has SOMEHOW used for a (tiny) amount of good.

Seriously? Is this really what Catholics believe? Were all of those young people I spent time with really thinking this during all the discussions we had, the conversations of faith? If so, I should say they hid it well.

Let me clear something up for all of you: I love Jesus. He saved me from certain death and a lifetime of sin, and has been mercy and kindness to me every day since. He has become the meaning of my life, the center of my existence, and my closest dearest Lord to boot. And all of that is true because of the non-catholic faith that opened my eyes to Christ. And there are millions of Protestants just like me, and millions of Catholics too.

This war you fight, this hatred you have for protestantism, makes you look small, and I promise it does NOTHING to further the message of love your Lord died for, nor to build His Church, whatever form of that you adhere to. I would be very careful of calling something that has saved so many souls, and so swelled the ranks of the believing, something equal to “diseases, accidents, and every kind of stupidity.”
Thank you for pointing that out, and I agree that such wording such as calling protestantism the quote that you provided is not in any way conducive to dialogue. Who is going to listen to you if you use such words?

I would like to point out that I’ve found it quite difficult on these forums in forming a response to answers because responses will vary greatly depending on the audience. When Catholics speak to other faithful Catholics who are trying to further the truth of Catholic faith, when they discuss protestantism, we will often emphasize the negative aspects such as the numberless interpretations of Scripture and the differences between our theologies. As a result, I’ve found that when protestants enter such dialogue, they can sometimes find it to be somewhat offensive because the dialogue assumes their faith to be problematic. I’m not undermining the fact that there are still Catholics out there who hate protestants, though I don’t know of any, just as there are very many protestants who hate Catholics, of whom I know quite a few.

Before I became Catholic three years ago, I grew up and lived in many many different variations of protestantism: baptist, fundamentalist, episcopalian, non-denominational, pentecostal, charismatic, presbyterian, and others. I’ve been to pentacostal churches that equated Catholicism with witchcraft. I’ve been in baptist and fundamentist churches that have called the pope the anti-Christ and one that said that when Pope JP2 died that if he followed Catholic teaching that he is in HELL!! (I entered the Catholic Church soon after that btw.)

There are many many points of agreement between Catholics and Protestants (depending on the beliefs of the denominational tradition); however, there are still many points of disagreement that must be worked out. So let’s have both sides cease with the pointless talk of vilifying the other side, as both Catholics and Protestants according to their tradition share one important thing in common: they both sincerely wish to follow Jesus Christ and do his will. What comes along with that is that we must humbly beg for light from him that he will guide us in his truth and lead us. We must be careful to not be prideful in assuming what we may have been taught or discovered to be automatically correct, and when something we believe is found to be wanting or lacking we must be willing to consider the other’s perspective.

That said, let’s use the many different forums here to discuss the specific differences or troubles that any given protestant may have with the Catholic faith, whether it be Mary, the saints, the pope, the priesthood, or whatever. Most hatred of Catholicism is almost certainly grounded in ignorance of what it truly teaches. That must always be remembered. I used to hate what I thought the Catholic Church taught, until I actually read what the Church taught from its own writers. The early Church fathers, btw, are a great start if you want to see what the Church believed and practiced immediately following the death of the apostles.

God bless you on your journey.
 
Name one or two reasons you think God allowed Protestantism.

I think one reason might be that Catholicism is so… difficult, that maybe God wanted there to be an “easier, softer” way that would lead people to Christ (and He knew that many would then be led to the RC Church)?? Just a thought.

Also, i think that Protestants generally focus on different things than Catholics do, different “aspects” of God, things that are nonetheless very important… like, well… i just think that sometimes they are more… friendly… & i feel they may trust in God’s mercy more than a lot of Catholics…
God always chooses a remant for Himself in every generation in redemptive history for His own good pleasure and His own glory. Being Catholic or Protestant does not reconcile you to God as it appears some may think.
 
Thank you for pointing that out, and I agree that such wording such as calling protestantism the quote that you provided is not in any way conducive to dialogue. Who is going to listen to you if you use such words?

I would like to point out that I’ve found it quite difficult on these forums in forming a response to answers because responses will vary greatly depending on the audience. When Catholics speak to other faithful Catholics who are trying to further the truth of Catholic faith, when they discuss protestantism, we will often emphasize the negative aspects such as the numberless interpretations of Scripture and the differences between our theologies. As a result, I’ve found that when protestants enter such dialogue, they can sometimes find it to be somewhat offensive because the dialogue assumes their faith to be problematic. I’m not undermining the fact that there are still Catholics out there who hate protestants, though I don’t know of any, just as there are very many protestants who hate Catholics, of whom I know quite a few.

Before I became Catholic three years ago, I grew up and lived in many many different variations of protestantism: baptist, fundamentalist, episcopalian, non-denominational, pentecostal, charismatic, presbyterian, and others. I’ve been to pentacostal churches that equated Catholicism with witchcraft. I’ve been in baptist and fundamentist churches that have called the pope the anti-Christ and one that said that when Pope JP2 died that if he followed Catholic teaching that he is in HELL!! (I entered the Catholic Church soon after that btw.)

There are many many points of agreement between Catholics and Protestants (depending on the beliefs of the denominational tradition); however, there are still many points of disagreement that must be worked out. So let’s have both sides cease with the pointless talk of vilifying the other side, as both Catholics and Protestants according to their tradition share one important thing in common: they both sincerely wish to follow Jesus Christ and do his will. What comes along with that is that we must humbly beg for light from him that he will guide us in his truth and lead us. We must be careful to not be prideful in assuming what we may have been taught or discovered to be automatically correct, and when something we believe is found to be wanting or lacking we must be willing to consider the other’s perspective.

That said, let’s use the many different forums here to discuss the specific differences or troubles that any given protestant may have with the Catholic faith, whether it be Mary, the saints, the pope, the priesthood, or whatever. Most hatred of Catholicism is almost certainly grounded in ignorance of what it truly teaches. That must always be remembered. I used to hate what I thought the Catholic Church taught, until I actually read what the Church taught from its own writers. The early Church fathers, btw, are a great start if you want to see what the Church believed and practiced immediately following the death of the apostles.

God bless you on your journey.
Funny Pentecostals equate Catholicism with witchcraft since they’re the ones screaming, running up and down isles, going in into epileptic seizures (thats how it looks), passing out as people lay hands on them, “casting out demons”, thowing hankerchefs at people, Having snakes bite them (some offshoots of pentecostals), drinking arsenic (some offshoots), and on and on. Who’s more guilty of witchcraft?
 
Why did God allow protestantism? To salvage the Gospel of Jesus Christ from false religion and to further His church!!!

The bashing can go on and on on these blogs, but ask yourself what was originally taught by Christ and the apostles? Are you, reader, practicing what Christ taught? Do you believe that you are? On what grounds? Have you read the Bible recently? Why or why not? It is written plainly—one does not need to be a priest to interpret it! The holy spirit reveals the truth of God’s word!

I grew up steeped in Christian tradition, until the day that God opened my eyes and revealed to me what Christianity is really about. Read your Bible!

Pray to God for him to reveal his truth to you, regardless of what it means as to what church you are affiliated with, or what your friends say. He changed my life of religious ritual into one of glorious fellowship with the God of the universe!

-Igy
youtube.com/profile?user=igystrvigy&view=playlists
The Bible came from the Catholic Church. Without the early Church fathers compiling a canon, who on a universal level upheld and practiced foundational Catholic teachings that protestants later denied, we would not know which books are inspired and which are not. They sorted through them, and they were unquestionably Catholic in their theology. I’m sure you are reading your Bible just as the other millions of peoples in the many thousands of different protestant denominations who all disagree over ever fundamental issue in the Book. The question is who is interpreting it in light of the correct apostolic tradition. The Catholic Church does not teach that one needs “a priest to interpret” the Bible. It does teach, however, that the Bible must be understood properly within the Tradition in which it was written, compiled, and handed down. The Catholic faith did not originate with Constantine, as the non-historically minded protestants try to argue. The teachings of the Catholic faith are evidenced in the writings of the earliest followers of the apostles. Read St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was approved and appointed bishop by the apostle Peter and who was a disciple of the apostle John. Then we can have this discussion.

“Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the people also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Ignatius of Antioch, letter to the Smyrnaeans, ** AD 107**).
nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Ignatius-of-Antioch
newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm
 
God always chooses a remant for Himself in every generation in redemptive history for His own good pleasure and His own glory. Being Catholic or Protestant does not reconcile you to God as it appears some may think.
True. We must not only hold to the truth; we also must do the will of the Father and persevere to the end in order to be saved. As a result, the number of the faithful has always been few in comparison to the many who choose to go their own way.

When it comes to truth, however, God unquestionably wants us to know the truth about him, which is why he gave us the Church.
John 8:32 And you shall know the truth: and the truth shall make you free.
 
In all your extensive reading, have you ever stumbled across St. Thomas Aquinas’s Summa Theologica per chance? If so, do you recall what the angelic doctor had to say on the subject?
franklky, atthis time in my life, i am more into trying to get others to Jesus than studying complex theological ideas and etc, etc…

getting people to have a proper fear of God and become concerned about their salvation is far more important…

especially considering the fact that, according to some saints, more people end up in Hell than Heaven…
 
Why did God allow protestantism? To salvage the Gospel of Jesus Christ from false religion and to further His church!!!
hmmm… so he allows division of the worst kind in the Church He established so that he could… make a better Church? As Jesus said, a House divided against itself will fall… Protestantism has caused so much division that a lot of people think Christianity is bogus… and so, they stay far away from it…
so much for progress…
The bashing can go on and on on these blogs, but ask yourself what was originally taught by Christ and the apostles?
Catholicism
Are you, reader, practicing what Christ taught?
yes. And i was NOt doing that as a regular Christian… only started doing that well when got back to God’s original Church… and there is only ONE Church… God is nt the author of confusion… people are.
Do you believe that you are? On what grounds?
I know the Word of God.
have you read the Bible recently?
hear it every day - Old and New Testament - and have for the last, well, so mnay yrs, don’t know exactly… how many.
It is written plainly—one does not need to be a priest to interpret it!
well, there sure are a lot of interpretations out there (Methodist, Baptist, Mormon, JWs)…

So much for the Bible being so plainly written…
Pray to God for him to reveal his truth to you, regardless of what it means as to what church you are affiliated with, or what your friends say. He changed my life of religious ritual into one of glorious fellowship with the God of the universe!
lovely… and waht about the woman who was also outside the original Church… who said God told her to throw her 8-month old down the stairs…??

There is God and there is the “god of this world”… sometimes we all have trouble discerning the difference

which is why we need not only the Bible but the Church that Christ originally established… The Bible without the Church is like a fish out of water…
 
To hear you speak, protestantism is an unspeakable evil, a blight, at best a great evil that God has SOMEHOW used for a (tiny) amount of good.
maybe you should name names because i don’t see anything that fits this description… (maybe i missed a few posts??)
Let me clear something up for all of you: I love Jesus. He saved me from certain death and a lifetime of sin, and has been mercy and kindness to me every day since.
you seem to imply He doesn’t do this for those in the RCC…
He has become the meaning of my life, the center of my existence, and my closest dearest Lord to boot.
and you feel He is NOT to Catholics???
all of that is true because of the non-catholic faith that opened my eyes to Christ.
All Christians are “Catholic”. If it weren’t for the Catholic Church, you would not be a Christian… all Protestant “churches” broke away from Catholicism, keeping what they thoguht was necessary… but all that they kept and much of what they discarded or thought they discarded was CATHOLIC. who are you to say that they kept all the right - and most important things… and by the way, WHICH one of those break-aways kept all the right things and was the purest form of Chritianity possible??? Why did true Christianity wait 1500 , at best… yrs to arrive on the scene? Makes no sense…
This war you fight, this hatred you have for protestantism, makes you look small, ."
No, it doesn’t There may be some who have actual hatred toward actual Protestant people… (i don’t recall reading their posts if they are here)…but most Catholics just hate heresy

And it is because they LOVE truth… to love truth is to hate lies
 
franklky, atthis time in my life, i am more into trying to get others to Jesus than studying complex theological ideas and etc, etc…

getting people to have a proper fear of God and become concerned about their salvation is far more important…

especially considering the fact that, according to some saints, more people end up in Hell than Heaven…
I agree. More important, but that doesn’t mean that finer points of theology are a waist of time by any means. Certainly we would rank studying and discussing theology as more worthwhile than watching movies, going to the mall, shopping, discussing sports, etc, yet I’m sure you engage in those activities as well. If you’re not interested in it, then I’d suggest shying away from making such comments as if they were known facts. Yes, let’s lead as many souls to heaven as possible, but we certainly wouldn’t want to discourage people from studying the details of the faith that saves us and the faith that we love. That said, we’ll drop those specifics and leave them for another thread on purgatory.

Great subsequent posts btw!
 
All that we know by faith and reason tells us that God permits evil only because He foresees the good that results by His permissive will. .
I agree…

but this last statement seems to negate the fact that evil does a lot of damage in the world, regardless of whether or not good comes from it. good comes from evil because the ultimate good that is God is everywhere & watching everything… and He loves people & helps them depite the evil they experience/endure… and yet that evil still causes sometimes irreversible damage…(physically, emotionally, etc…) - irreversible, that is, if someone does not come into deep intimacy with our Healer, Jesus Christ… and even then, some damage is permanent until we get to Heaven…

:heaven:
 
I agree. More important, but that doesn’t mean that finer points of theology are a waist of time by any means. Certainly we would rank studying and discussing theology as more worthwhile than watching movies, going to the mall, shopping, discussing sports, etc, yet I’m sure you engage in those activities as well.
ha ha… you don’t know me very well… i do vritually none of those things… I shop only for essentials… I take the Gospel and my love of Christ seriously…
then I’d suggest shying away from making such comments as if they were known facts.
what did i state as a known fact??? I don’t state anything as known fact unless i’m sure it IS a known fact… so again… you don’t know me/have misunderstood something i said… I’d like to know WHAT…

and besides, even if i say something that i can’t prove as fact does not take away my right to say it… and I am not going to muzzle the Holy Spirit (assuming it was He who led me to say waht you don’t like?)… just because you want verifiable proof provided for everything i say…
Yes, let’s lead as many souls to heaven as possible, but we certainly wouldn’t want to discourage people from studying the details of the faith that saves us and the faith that we love.
who discouraged anyone?
 
ha ha… you don’t know me very well… i do vritually none of those things… I shop only for essentials… I take the Gospel and my love of Christ seriously… what did i state as a known fact??? I don’t state anything as known fact unless i’m sure it IS a known fact… so again… you don’t know me/have misunderstood something i said… I’d like to know WHAT…

and besides, even if i say something that i can’t prove as fact does not take away my right to say it… and I am not going to muzzle the Holy Spirit (assuming it was He who led me to say waht you don’t like?)… just because you want verifiable proof provided for everything i say…

who discouraged anyone?
I edited my post. read the stuff I added to the end of it. Also read your post that i originally commented on. You stated that the souls in purgatory are located inside of churches near Christ’s Real Presence there. It’s really not that big a deal and if you think that. That can be your opinion. I was just pointing it out because I hold to St. Thomas’ view and had never heard anyone propose such a thing as what you said. It’s not a big deal. Certainly not essential, and we’ll leave it for another thread.
 
I edited my post. read the stuff I added to the end of it. Also read your post that i originally commented on. You stated that the souls in purgatory are located inside of churches near Christ’s Real Presence there. It’s really not that big a deal and if you think that. That can be your opinion. I was just pointing it out because I hold to St. Thomas’ view and had never heard anyone propose such a thing as what you said. It’s not a big deal. Certainly not essential, and we’ll leave it for another thread.
I believe the souls in Purg really ARE at the Blessed S with Jesus because… well, i believe from experience as well as what i heard/read (and again, i read only “reliable” info… ). I have felt llike i was in hell sometimes @ the Blessed Sacrament (unexposed)… and could not figure out why because was not in mortal sin and had had my venials sins sacramentally absolved… and even atoned for through penance (acts of charity and etc…)… so i was happy to find out that the souls were There… 'cause it explained things… . Also, i like that they are There (assuming they are) because we can pray together & together our prayers are more powerful…(certainly more suffering to offer up for conversions:ouch: ) They desire our prayers to get into Heaven sooner… (can’t pray for themselves, though they can pray for us)

anyway… i don’t know St. thomas’ view on souls in Purg… What are they, in a nutshell? I could never get into his writings yrs ago… so probalby can’t now either… Frankly some of what he has said (or supposed to have said?) sounds a little sexist… but don’t make a big deal out of that because i may be speaking only of waht someone SAID about his writings… I haven’t read them all for mysefl…
 
A protestant perspective on Purgatory, hell, prison, pit, hades or any other name attributed to hell.

It all stems from the creation of mankind where any soul who came to know knowledge between good and evil was automatically separated from God. (Spiritual death if you will).

Knowledge brings death and then life.
Two trees (Knowledge of good and evil brings death) and knowledge of The Tree of Life. (Knowledge of Jesus as your savior brings life)

Getting back to hell, the bible speaks of a prison where souls were held captive.

Have you ever wondered just how God was to deal with all those souls who lived and died thousands of years before Christ who did not even know whether there was even a God much less knowing of any written work about Him?

Well the answer is all right there in the bible, just have to trust God to reveal it to you.

Prison: 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Why were they there in the first place?

Remember that in Adam all die? Physical and spiritual death?

Hence, unless God comes and saves us, we are without hope.

Jesus is that redeemer, who in perfection be came sin for us and paid the penalty of our death from the very first set of parents, to the present day and for all future generations.

But those trapped between heaven and earth had no chance to hear as you and I, the word of God, Jesus.

So, Jesus was condemned to hell in our place, and there is where He went to visit the imprisoned to liberate them.

There is supportive scripture to that effect and in in accordance with the theme of the whole bible.

Opened the prisons doors:

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Have eyes but could not see, free but bound in prison of separation and sitting in darkness for lack of knowledge of the tree of life.
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Why must/did Jesus have to do that?
Predicted
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

The pit:
Eze 32:23 Whose graves are set in the sides of the pit, and her company is round about her grave: all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which caused terror in the land of the living.

Hell is stirred up for the coming of Jesus:Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirred up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

The thing to keep in mind when trying to understand scripture is the prevailing theme that is the main subject of the word of God, and that is that Gods works are in creation, and salvation of its creatures.

If we look at it from His point of view, we will see His great mercy.

What mankind has done is make shambles of righteousness simply because we are without power to redeem our selves.

Had God not moved to deliver us from this hell, we would be as if we had never existed.

That is what we have to learn, and reaching out to eat (Gain knowledge of) of the tree of Life will grant us life eternal.

If we should worry about anything in this life, it should be to reach others and instruct them about Gods saving grace via Jesus.

All other subjects and issues will always be debatable because that is the means by which we sharpen our swords in knowledge, unless, we become close minded and bound by mankind’s dogmas.

Peace>>>AJ
 
For the same reason he allows paganism, Islam, Buddism, etc. Man has freedom to choose. We don’t always make the best choices but God doesn’t force Himself or His way on any of us. I don’t believe that God ever wanted the Church to split into different believing groups, I think that we can learn much from some of our Protestant brothers and sisters. And, one day all Christians will be one as the Lord intended.
 
For the same reason he allows paganism, Islam, Buddism, etc. Man has freedom to choose. We don’t always make the best choices but God doesn’t force Himself or His way on any of us. I don’t believe that God ever wanted the Church to split into different believing groups, I think that we can learn much from some of our Protestant brothers and sisters. And, one day all Christians will be one as the Lord intended.
👍 I just had to reply, that you have a very possitive attitude and are a pleasent person. Jesus is not coming back for a denomination or building but for all those who truley believe on his name and that he died for our sins for he is no respector of man and all our good works are as filthy rags,for by faith we are saved not by good works lest any man should boast,for faith comes by hearing,and by the word of god(faith) James:2 Salvation John1-12, 3-36 5:24 1st John:5:11-13
:blessyou: Nancy
 
anyway… i don’t know St. thomas’ view on souls in Purg… What are they, in a nutshell? I could never get into his writings yrs ago… so probalby can’t now either… Frankly some of what he has said (or supposed to have said?) sounds a little sexist… but don’t make a big deal out of that because i may be speaking only of waht someone SAID about his writings… I haven’t read them all for mysefl…
I’m not sure what feminist may have told you St. Thomas wrote something sexist. His writings happen to be the most praised and approved writings with more magisterial backings than any other saint or doctor in the 2000 year history of the Church!
From the encyclical Aeterni Patris by Pope Leo XIII:
Innocent VI: “His [Aquinas’] teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error.”
22. The ecumenical councils, also, where blossoms the flower of all earthly wisdom, have always been careful to hold Thomas Aquinas in singular honor. In the Councils of Lyons, Vienna, Florence, and the Vatican one might almost say that Thomas took part and presided over the deliberations and decrees of the Fathers
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13cph.htm
 
anyway… i don’t know St. thomas’ view on souls in Purg… What are they, in a nutshell?
In his Summa, St. Thomas answers almost every question you could have about Purgatory. His response as to the location can be found here: newadvent.org/summa/7001.htm#article2

I suggest reading the whole thing. Here is the key paragraph:
Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church.
Let’s continue to pray and beg God that we ourselves as well as others will not be sentenced to Purgatory and that the poor souls there will be liberated. God bless.
Btw, if you wish to continue this discussion, we should do so in another thread, since it’s not related to the subject in the OP. Thanks.
 
I’m not sure what feminist may have told you St. Thomas wrote something sexist. His writings happen to be the most praised and approved writings with more magisterial backings than any other saint or doctor in the 2000 year history of the Church!
No feminist needs to say anything about Aquinas (or Martin Luther) being sexist - their own words speak for themselves. It is not a pretty part of Christian history:

Aquinas insisted that every woman is birth-defective, an imperfect male begotten that way because her father was either ill, debilitated, or in a sinful condition at the time of her conception. “As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from a defect in the active power.” -Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Ia, q. 92, a. 1, Obj. 1

Martin Luther: “If women get tired and die of bearing, there is no harm in that; let them die as long as they bear; there is no harm in that.” - from Luther’s Essays

No argument that St. Thomas was brilliant. But he wasn’t perfect. Neither was Father Luther.

O+
 
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