Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

[distracted]

there is a book by Fr. Shoupe about Purgatory… some of it is hard to believe but the longer i live, the more i see/experience, the easier it is to believe…

It is probably carried here at Catholic Answers??? I don’t know for sure… but larger Catholic books stores have it…

 

[MelanieAnne]

Don’t you know that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags?

Hi AJ,

If I am reading this exchange correctly, the subject seems to be the worship of God with reverence towards the Holy Eucharist.

If we worship God, we do not do so because we are righteous. It seems to me that you are equating worship with something unpleasant.

Now, of course, were we to worship God for the sake of having others watch us do so, to cause them to believe we are holy or pious, that would be something altogether different.

 

[una_fides]

Can we separate the things which are spiritual from that which is physical?

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

The physical is where we are, whether it be at home or at a church, but the spirit of God has no physical home, unless, it be in your heart.

And if it is in your heart, then it is separate from this world because it is a spiritual.

So, if we are going to talk things of God, lets us talk about the spiritual nature of His Kingdom and not mix the two as if it were one.

Remember, when it was first mixed (Married) As in :Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The mix is the marriage between the breath of God (Adam) and the vessel of clay (Eve) resulting in separation from God=death.

To emphasize the Catholic church as the one and only way is to say that Christ alone (Spiritual) can not save unless one belongs to that physical church and not the spiritual.

So, I plead, as a member of the spiritual church, the body of believers, which is spiritual, that we as believers enjoy the fellowship of brotherhood in Christ.

For we both, as believers belong to the same spiritual church of which Christ is the head, and not necessarily the physical.

Peace>>>AJ

They mystical body and the visible body of the Church are one in the same. You are either a part of the body of Christ or you are not. You have the choice, and God’s grace is leading you there, leading back home to the Catholic faith, wherein you will find the fullness of grace and truth and wherein you will find Christ. The choice is yours as to whether you will humbly beg for light from heaven and thereby discover Christ’s real Church.

Here are some articles to read: (please read at least the first as I think you will find it relevant to your thinking and journey up to this point based on your comments earlier)
**catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0705fea4.asp **
catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0711clas.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409sbs.asp

 

[una_fides]

AJ, the Catholic Church is not a building or a religious organization. The people are the Church. When Jesus calls for one church, one body of believers, he’s talking about the people, not a building.

The decision of the Protestants, and I was one once so I know something about Protestantism, to separate from the church ~ the body of believers ~ destroyed the unity. We may have some things in common, but there is no unity.

One of the things that keeps getting advanced, but I haven’t seen an answer to, pertains to the Holy Spirit. Since you frequently refer to the Holy Spirit, and since I presume you agree that the Holy Spirit, with God and Jesus, are one in the Trinity, I have to ask ~ how is it that the Holy Spirit can confirm one “truth” to me, and another “truth” to you, and still another “truth” to someone else? Isn’t that, more, an example of each of us deciding for ourselves and then deciding that the Holy Spirit confirms our belief? Kinda convenient at times!

If there is only one Holy Spirit, there can be only one message of truth. Obviously, if there are thousands of sects/denominations, and each claims the confirmation of their belief by the Holy Spirit, more than a few have a problem. There can be only one.

excellent point! The HS is described in Sacred Scripture as the “Spirit of Truth,” and truth cannot contradict itself. I’d like to add to your opening comment that the people are the Church to the extent that they are communion with its leaders and their judgments made through the authority of Christ given to them and passed on through apostolic succession.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I’d like to add to your opening comment that the people are the Church to the extent that they are communion with its leaders and their judgments made through the authority of Christ given to them and passed on through apostolic succession.

That’s true. I was merely attempting to make the point that the “church” was not a building or an institution.

Similarly the WORD of God is not simply a book, it is a person, and His Name is Jesus Christ. When people try to reduce the WORD down to simply a collection of writings, even sacred ones, they are still missing the totality of the WORD. Since the Gospel of John makes it pretty clear that Jesus is the WORD it’s hard to understand why so many people seem to believe that the WORD is only the Bible.

 

[una_fides]

i doubt i have misunderstood a thing… JUst because you don’t see things the way i do does not make you right and me wrong…

not true… I define Purgatory broadly, to mean a condition of being purged… and as one saint (or many?) said we should begin our Purgatory on Earth… and Christians who love Jesus DO that when they attempt to live His teachings in a world that generally does NOT… all suffering can be Purgatorial if given to God as expiation…

Not true… I’m there… & no one will convince me otherwise… I entered Purgatory when i began praying the rosary year ago… and as stated, it is all the more intense while at the Real Presence…(for a long time).

i believe that no matter how much we suffer on Earth, it is nothing compared to Purgatory and most people who go to Heaven go to purg 1st… the saints will verify this. Purg is excrutiating… and that’s how i know i’m in Purg @ the Blessed Sacrament… Again, maybe i can’t prove it to anyone’s satisfaction, but oh well… I can’t prove that I exist to those who can’t see me… can’t prove i am loved by Christ… but know that i am…

Again, you are being purged from your sins but you are not in Purgatory properly speaking. Otherwise, you disagree not with me but with the Church’s definition of Purgatory.

Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible
Purgatory: The place and state in which souls suffer for a while and are purged after death, before they go to heaven, on account of their sins. Venial sins, which have never in life been remitted by an act of repentance or love or by good deeds, and grave sins, the guilt of which with its eternal punishment has indeed been removed by God after an act of repentance but for which there is still left a debt of temporal punishment due to His justice on account of the imperfection of that repentance, must be purged away after death by the pain of intense longing for God, whose blissful vision is delayed, and also, as is commonly taught, by some pain of sense, inflicted probably by material fire. It is of faith that those in purgatory can be helped by the prayers and sacrifices of the faithful on earth and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar.

The existence of purgatory is universally taught by all the Fathers of the Church. The words of Our Lord, “You shall not come out from it until you have paid the last penny” are very clear (Matt. 5:25-26). Later, when speaking of the sins against the Holy Spirit, Jesus says that such a sin “will not be forgiven either in this world or in the next,” thus implying that there are some sins that can be atoned for in the next world (Matt. 12:32). Paul also shows his belief in purgatory when, in his second letter to Timothy, he prays for the deceased Onesiphorus. “May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day” (2 Tim. 1:18). Even in the Old Testament there was a belief in the existence of purgatory, for there we find Judas Maccabeus sending 12,000 drachmas to Jerusalem to have sacrifices offered for the sins of the dead. That chapter ends with the advice. “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins” (2 Mac. 12:46).

 

[una_fides]

there is a book by Fr. Shoupe about Purgatory… some of it is hard to believe but the longer i live, the more i see/experience, the easier it is to believe…

It is probably carried here at Catholic Answers??? I don’t know for sure… but larger Catholic books stores have it…

Ok so I think I found what you may have read about the souls in Purgatory and the Blessed Sacrament:
Though there is no ecclesiastical decision in the matter, it is a common custom to pray to the souls in purgatory that they will intercede for us with God. “I do not believe it would be possible to find any joy comparable to that of a soul in purgatory, except the joy of the Blessed in Paradise. For every sight, however little, that can be gained of God exceeds every pain and every joy that man can conceive without it” (Saint Catherine of Genoa).​

Though to you it may feel like how you may envision purgatory when you pray the rosary or when you’re in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, you are not dead and therefore you are not in purgatory. You are experiencing purging, but you are not formally speaking in Purgatory. If you claim anything otherwise, you are doing so by “private revelation” which unless you can get the Vatican to approve, you are not permitted to discuss or promote such on this forum. Forum Rules

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Again, you are being purged from your sins but you are not in Purgatory properly speaking. Otherwise, you disagree not with me but with the Church’s definition of Purgatory.

Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible
Purgatory: The place and state in which souls suffer for a while and are purged after death, before they go to heaven, on account of their sins. Venial sins, which have never in life been remitted by an act of repentance or love or by good deeds, and grave sins, the guilt of which with its eternal punishment has indeed been removed by God after an act of repentance but for which there is still left a debt of temporal punishment due to His justice on account of the imperfection of that repentance, must be purged away after death by the pain of intense longing for God, whose blissful vision is delayed, and also, as is commonly taught, by some pain of sense, inflicted probably by material fire. It is of faith that those in purgatory can be helped by the prayers and sacrifices of the faithful on earth and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar.

The existence of purgatory is universally taught by all the Fathers of the Church. The words of Our Lord, “You shall not come out from it until you have paid the last penny” are very clear (Matt. 5:25-26). Later, when speaking of the sins against the Holy Spirit, Jesus says that such a sin “will not be forgiven either in this world or in the next,” thus implying that there are some sins that can be atoned for in the next world (Matt. 12:32). Paul also shows his belief in purgatory when, in his second letter to Timothy, he prays for the deceased Onesiphorus. “May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day” (2 Tim. 1:18). Even in the Old Testament there was a belief in the existence of purgatory, for there we find Judas Maccabeus sending 12,000 drachmas to Jerusalem to have sacrifices offered for the sins of the dead. That chapter ends with the advice. “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins” (2 Mac. 12:46).

What does what ever is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven mean? And if in 2nd Maccabees, they prayed for the dead that were holy why did they need prayers? Didnt Jesus say the dead know nothing?
Please get back Thank You Nancy

 

[una_fides]

What does what ever is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven mean? And if in 2nd Maccabees, they prayed for the dead that were holy why did they need prayers? Didnt Jesus say the dead know nothing?
Please get back Thank You Nancy

the terms “binding and loosing” were rabbinical terms that the rabbis of the day would have understood to mean as saying that whatever they bound as truth was truth and error was error. It was a sign of authority to declare truth from error to bind people to the truth and loose them from error.
I went to www.catholic.com and typed in “bind and loose” in the search words and here is a some relevant article that should help:
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0204frs.asp
I also found this outline with Scriptures by doing a Google search: biblechristiansociety.com/booklets/Apostolic%20Authority%20and%20the%20Pope.doc.
An excellent book that will answer most of your main questions, as it did mine when I was initially learning about Catholicism and that helped me overcome all the incorrect things I had been told Catholics believe was “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keeting. If you are not a fundamentalist or have no affiliations with them, this book is still an excellent resource. However, if that’s the case, you may want to skim over the first few chapters and get to his topics on specific doctrines regarding the papacy, intercession of saints, etc…
You can preview it here: books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=FlWAI0JeRcsC&dq=cathocism+and+fundamentalism&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=BKvtPfznin&sig=CEidfVadOgz9tzxgA5-Xilc_pL0&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
And purchase it here: amazon.com/Catholicism-Fundamentalism-Attack-Romanism-Christians/dp/0898701775

Regarding prayers for the dead, the dead who are not yet perfect but die in a state of grace go to Purgatory to be purified of their sins before entering heaven. Our prayers on their behalf can reduce their temporal punishment as we are all connected through the Communion of the saints.
Here is the Catechism from the Council of Trent on the Church and the Communion of Saints from the points in the creed: catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/ApostlesCreed09.shtml

Here are some articles about purgatory from Catholic.com:
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711word.asp
catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
You will also need to have an understanding on indulgences to understand how prayers for the souls in purgatory benefit them:

• catholic.com/library/primer_on_indulgences.asp *
• catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb1.asp *
  catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb2.asp
  catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb4.asp

If after reading these articles, you still have questions, let me know.

 

[guanophore]

Can we separate the things which are spiritual from that which is physical?

No. Jesus would not have joined His divinity to a human body if that was His intention. This is the incarnational principle. Spiritual things are joined to the physical, and act through them.

When He entered the waters of baptism, He joined the HS to them, so that the baptismal waters could wash away sins. He could have done this without water, but He chose not to. He could have healed the blind man without the mud, but He chose the mud. He chooses to heal through material objects, people’s hands, and people’s belongings.

Mark 10:8-9
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate."

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Indeed. And one of the things that is given us by God is the power to be in the world, but not of it.

The physical is where we are, whether it be at home or at a church, but the spirit of God has no physical home, unless, it be in your heart.

Indeed, and that is why He is present in the Body.

1 Cor 12:27

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

And if it is in your heart, then it is separate from this world because it is a spiritual.

Hogwash! That is like saying that Jesus was not truly present in the flesh, which is a grievious heresy.

So, if we are going to talk things of God, lets us talk about the spiritual nature of His Kingdom and not mix the two as if it were one.

They are one, look. If they were not, then it would not be possible for a person to join the members of the spiritual Body to a prostitute!

1 Cor 6:15-18
5 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Should I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that whoever is united to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For it is said, “The two shall be one flesh.” 17 But anyone united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Remember, when it was first mixed (Married) As in :Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The mix is the marriage between the breath of God (Adam) and the vessel of clay (Eve) resulting in separation from God=death.

No, look, you have your theology a bit mixed up. After God breathed into Adam the breath of Life, then created him a companion, He said “it is good”.

What caused the separation and death was sin, not creation, and not the combining of spirit and flesh. If this were true, then Jesus could not have become flesh and dwelt among us, as there is no death in Him.

To emphasize the Catholic church as the one and only way is to say that Christ alone (Spiritual) can not save unless one belongs to that physical church and not the spiritual.

Despite the fact that this is grammatically mixed up, it is clear that you do not understand the teaching of the Church on this point. The Church does not teach this malformed idea.

So, I plead, as a member of the spiritual church, the body of believers, which is spiritual, that we as believers enjoy the fellowship of brotherhood in Christ.

Unity, look, is found in adherance to the truth. To the extent that you have departed from the Apostolic Teaching, which seems quite far based on this post, our fellowship will be less than ideal.

For we both, as believers belong to the same spiritual church of which Christ is the head, and not necessarily the physical.

I agree, with the stipulation that His Body on earth is most definitely physical.

 

[guanophore]

What does what ever is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven mean? And if in 2nd Maccabees, they prayed for the dead that were holy why did they need prayers? Didnt Jesus say the dead know nothing?
Please get back Thank You Nancy

Quite the opposite, Jesus corrected that wrong understanding of the afterlife by making it clear that those who have passed on know quite a bit. He also clearly taught that they are alive, even if they have put off their bodies.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Quite the opposite, Jesus corrected that wrong understanding of the afterlife by making it clear that those who have passed on know quite a bit. He also clearly taught that they are alive, even if they have put off their bodies.

I believe their alive spritualy but not connected to this world. Nancy

 

[look3467]

AJ, the Catholic Church is not a building or a religious organization. The people are the Church. When Jesus calls for one church, one body of believers, he’s talking about the people, not a building.>>>Anne

That is precisely my point!

The decision of the Protestants, and I was one once so I know something about Protestantism, to separate from the church ~ the body of believers ~ destroyed the unity. We may have some things in common, but there is no unity.>>>Anne

The unity is not a mix of the spiritual and the physical, the reason that is so is because of all the variety, the divisions.

The Catholic Church has had its problems as all churches do, and that has to do with humanities managing them.

The only real unity we all have is in the spirit of our Lord where love is the motive and not a demand for conversions to a church.

One of the things that keeps getting advanced, but I haven’t seen an answer to, pertains to the Holy Spirit. Since you frequently refer to the Holy Spirit, and since I presume you agree that the Holy Spirit, with God and Jesus, are one in the Trinity, I have to ask ~ how is it that the Holy Spirit can confirm one “truth” to me, and another “truth” to you, and still another “truth” to someone else? Isn’t that, more, an example of each of us deciding for ourselves and then deciding that the Holy Spirit confirms our belief? Kinda convenient at times! >>>Anne

That is an excellent question of which many will be interested in my response.

Starting from the premise that we are all predestined to be saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus, we are all given the opportunity to grow spiritually at differing degrees or levels of understandings.

Some may not understand it at all but the attempt to may be there, but only the Holy Spirit will know and give certain revelations commensurate with the ability of the individual to comprehend.

The efforts of some to search out the deep things of God are rewarded upon sincere hearts that are after Gods own heart.

A sure indication, a positive indication of the Holy Spirits talking to us is if love is the ultimate desire in our earthly relationships one to another.

If there is only one Holy Spirit, there can be only one message of truth. Obviously, if there are thousands of sects/denominations, and each claims the confirmation of their belief by the Holy Spirit, more than a few have a problem. There can be only one.>>>Anne

Listen Anne, whatever religion one wants to participate in, if the love of God is not exercised , the problem is not with that religion, but with the individual in that religion.

Gods love is not discriminating because it looks at the heart of the individual regardless of who that person might be and touch that heart to do the right things.

If the right things are that we should experience certain beliefs, then that is to our credit in that by them we will learn how to generate God type of love.

Some may lead us into unfamiliar territory, but never abandoned.

If you find the Catholic Church to be the place to worship, then do it with all your heart.

For Jesus finds a pillow to rest His head on in your heart.

There, there is where it’s all at, the temple of your heart is where God resides.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MelanieAnne]

AJ, I’m not sure you understood my last point.

God is not a not of chaos and confusion. The Holy Spirit would not give one message to one person, and a different message to someone else. I’m sure we’ve all met someone in our life whose personal opinions always seemed to magically conform to confirmations from the Holy Spirit but, even where there is pride, or other things at work, the result is the same ~ there cannot be 2 different messages from one Holy Spirit.

I’m not talking about spiritual messages commensurate with someone’s ability to understand, I’m talking about diametrically opposite points of doctrine.

To illustrate, I’ll give some examples:

1A.
To a Mormon, the Holy Spirit confirms that God (the entity they refer to as “Heavenly Father”) has a body of flesh and bone and is a separate and distinct personage (with a separate and distinct physical body) from Jesus Christ.
1B.
To most other Christians, the Holy Spirit confirms that God and Jesus, together with the Holy Spirit, form the Holy Trinity. God does not have a physical body of flesh and bone separate and distinct from Jesus.

Another example:
2A.
To a Protestant, the Holy Spirit confirms that the Eucharist/Holy Communion is a symbol ~ perhaps even described as “an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace” ~ but it is not the literal body and blood of Jesus.
2B.
To a Catholic, the Holy Spirit confirms that the Eucharist, through the mystery of Transubstantiation, is the body and blood of Jesus.

As you can see from just a couple of examples, there are fundamental differences in doctrine, and yet each person identified above would no doubt confirm that the Holy Spirit confirmed the truth of their belief. But the Holy Spirit will not confirm one thing to one person and another thing to another person, so when there is a variance, there is something else at work besides the Holy Spirit.

My point is not to attempt to determine which, in either scenario, is true, my point in giving the examples is merely to illustrate that if 1A is true, then 1B cannot be true, hence 1B cannot truly have come from the Holy Spirit. And vice versa.

 

[look3467]

When He entered the waters of baptism, He joined the HS to them, so that the baptismal waters could wash away sins. He could have done this without water, but He chose not to. He could have healed the blind man without the mud, but He chose the mud. He chooses to heal through material objects, people’s hands, and people’s belongings.>>>guanophore

Jesus was baptized not for the washing of His sins, for He had none, but symbolic of the sins that he was about to take, meaning immersed into the sins of the whole world for the taking away of the sins he was immersed in.

Baptism did nothing but to give us a picture of the sins that Jesus was going to burden for us when at the garden He accepted the cup.

Indeed. And one of the things that is given us by God is the power to be in the world, but not of it.>>>guanophore

You’re absolutely correct there!

Hogwash! That is like saying that Jesus was not truly present in the flesh, which is a grievous heresy.>>> guanophore

The heart is in you, yet separate from the world is what was meant, spiritual.

They are one, look. If they were not, then it would not be possible for a person to join the members of the spiritual Body to a prostitute!>>>guanophere

What I meant there was that the spiritual side of us is where our salvation lies and not in the flesh, so to include the works of the body to the spiritual does not mix, for the spiritual was taken care of by God Himself.
It was His righteousness that we are given for salvation and nothing of our own can add to it.

No, look, you have your theology a bit mixed up. After God breathed into Adam the breath of Life, then created him a companion, He said “it is good”.

What caused the separation and death was sin, not creation, and not the combining of spirit and flesh. If this were true, then Jesus could not have become flesh and dwelt among us, as there is no death in Him.>>>guanopore

What defined that sin? Eating of the fruit? That fruit is symbolic of digesting knowledge, as in a symbolic tree, meaning knowledge of good and evil.

Despite the fact that this is grammatically mixed up, it is clear that you do not understand the teaching of the Church on this point. The Church does not teach this malformed idea.>>>Guanopore

NO? Is that why without the church I am considered lost?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

AJ, I’m not sure you understood my last point.>>>Anne

Very good examples on hat last post!

If we can understand the term predestination as to indicate that God predestined that all His creatures would be saved, as per the works of God as pictured in the whole of His bible, we would find that amongst all the differences between mankind’s understandings are but a means to leaning what love really is.

Our differences divide us, but the spirit of God unites us. It is that spirit which we need to acquire despite our differences which is the birth of love.

The Holy Spirit speaks with the intent to unite via the spirit of love.
The practices, traditions and differences are secondary.
If we can not have fellowship despite our differences, love has not yet matured.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MelanieAnne]

Very good examples on hat last post!

If we can understand the term predestination as to indicate that God predestined that all His creatures would be saved, as per the works of God as pictured in the whole of His bible, we would find that amongst all the differences between mankind’s understandings are but a means to leaning what love really is.

Our differences divide us, but the spirit of God unites us. It is that spirit which we need to acquire despite our differences which is the birth of love.

The Holy Spirit speaks with the intent to unite via the spirit of love.
The practices, traditions and differences are secondary.
If we can not have fellowship despite our differences, love has not yet matured.

Peace>>>AJ

AJ I can’t tell whether you get the point I am trying to make or not, but the fact is, love or no love, spiritual maturity or immaturity, fellowship or no fellowship, this is something that all the different sects seem unable to grapple with ~ the Holy Spirit doesn’t give out two different messages.

Using either of the previous examples, one of the “messages”, a message that someone may believe has been “confirmed” by the Holy Spirit, is WRONG and NOT FROM the Holy Spirit. (Where it may have originated is not pertinent to this discussion, the point is that it cannot be from the Holy Spirit.) It’s just a fact. It would be intellectually dishonest not to acknowledge that fact when discussing doctrinal differences, no matter how warm and fuzzy someone might want the world to be.

 

[wisdomseeker]

AJ, I’m not sure you understood my last point.

God is not a not of chaos and confusion. The Holy Spirit would not give one message to one person, and a different message to someone else. I’m sure we’ve all met someone in our life whose personal opinions always seemed to magically conform to confirmations from the Holy Spirit but, even where there is pride, or other things at work, the result is the same ~ there cannot be 2 different messages from one Holy Spirit.

I’m not talking about spiritual messages commensurate with someone’s ability to understand, I’m talking about diametrically opposite points of doctrine.

To illustrate, I’ll give some examples:

1A.
To a Mormon, the Holy Spirit confirms that God (the entity they refer to as “Heavenly Father”) has a body of flesh and bone and is a separate and distinct personage (with a separate and distinct physical body) from Jesus Christ.
1B.
To most other Christians, the Holy Spirit confirms that God and Jesus, together with the Holy Spirit, form the Holy Trinity. God does not have a physical body of flesh and bone separate and distinct from Jesus.

Another example:
2A.
To a Protestant, the Holy Spirit confirms that the Eucharist/Holy Communion is a symbol ~ perhaps even described as “an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace” ~ but it is not the literal body and blood of Jesus.
2B.
To a Catholic, the Holy Spirit confirms that the Eucharist, through the mystery of Transubstantiation, is the body and blood of Jesus.

As you can see from just a couple of examples, there are fundamental differences in doctrine, and yet each person identified above would no doubt confirm that the Holy Spirit confirmed the truth of their belief. But the Holy Spirit will not confirm one thing to one person and another thing to another person, so when there is a variance, there is something else at work besides the Holy Spirit.

My point is not to attempt to determine which, in either scenario, is true, my point in giving the examples is merely to illustrate that if 1A is true, then 1B cannot be true, hence 1B cannot truly have come from the Holy Spirit. And vice versa.

 

[guanophore]

I believe their alive spritualy but not connected to this world. Nancy

True, they are connected to the Body of Christ, which is in the world, but not “of” it. They also have whatever knowledge and influence God allows them to have in this world, just as Samuel knew what would happen to Saul and his sons the next day, and Moses and Elijah were able to talk to Jesus about the crucifixion.

 

[guanophore]

The unity is not a mix of the spiritual and the physical, the reason that is so is because of all the variety, the divisions.

It is definitely true that the unity of Christ’s One Body, the Church,has been splintered by disobedience and rebellion. This disunity prevents the world from knowing HIm.

The Catholic Church has had its problems as all churches do, and that has to do with humanities managing them.

It is true that humans do have problems. However, one must distinguish the Holy Bride of Christ from the sinful men attached to her.

The only real unity we all have is in the spirit of our Lord where love is the motive and not a demand for conversions to a church.

I agree. Conversion must be invited, not demanded. God calls everyone everywhere to repent,and become part of the One Church He founded.

That is an excellent question of which many will be interested in my response.

Starting from the premise that we are all predestined to be saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus, we are all given the opportunity to grow spiritually at differing degrees or levels of understandings.

Where did you get such a premise, I wonder? How come your premise does not apply to all situations, such as Judas?

Some may not understand it at all but the attempt to may be there, but only the Holy Spirit will know and give certain revelations commensurate with the ability of the individual to comprehend.

Catholics call this prevenient grace.

The efforts of some to search out the deep things of God are rewarded upon sincere hearts that are after Gods own heart.

Ahh, response to grace merits more grace! Very Catholic.

A sure indication, a positive indication of the Holy Spirits talking to us is if love is the ultimate desire in our earthly relationships one to another.

Indeed, the only thing that matters is faith, working through love.

  whatever religion one wants to participate in, if the love of God is not exercised , the problem is not with that religion, but with the individual in that religion.

It could be both.

Gods love is not discriminating because it looks at the heart of the individual regardless of who that person might be and touch that heart to do the right things.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

If the right things are that we should experience certain beliefs, then that is to our credit in that by them we will learn how to generate God type of love.

Some may lead us into unfamiliar territory, but never abandoned.

If you find the Catholic Church to be the place to worship, then do it with all your heart.

Actually, Jesus said we have to worship in Spirit, and in Truth. How do we know?

For Jesus finds a pillow to rest His head on in your heart.

There, there is where it’s all at, the temple of your heart is where God resides.

Peace>>>AJ

This is true, but He also resides in the Church, to which we are attached and made members through baptism.