M
Matariel
Guest
If you include Deism in Protestantism, I guess…
But God does bring good out of evil, so I guess you’re right.
America truly is a great country.
- Status
But God does bring good out of evil, so I guess you’re right.
America truly is a great country.
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
Honestly, to key into the above posts, I think, the key is not “Protestantism” but CHOICE. God is all about choice. He gave us free will and the choice to come to Him or Not. The difference is that the USA is the first place that religious choice was offered, in World History. That’s actually still true to this day. That makes the country great but it doesn’t validate Protestantism.
Let’s proceed from the construct that we Catholics believe ~ that Jesus founded our Church. Some practices, very obviously, had been corrupted by persons (humans!) by the time of the Reformation. I think we can all admit that it would have been better for the reformation to have taken place within the Church. But it didn’t. That’s too bad.
Along the way of Reformation, it’s pretty easy to see that a certain amount of Human Ego got involved too. So while they were busy breaking away from the church founded by Jesus Christ to “reform” religious practice, they also inserted their own personal viewpoints. We can see evidence of such human activity EVEN TODAY if we care to look.
It is often irresistible, no matter how noble your motives, to put your own personal stamp on something. Things like that occurred because the Catholic Church, at the time, did not react appropriately, and quickly enough, to the abuses of the time. That’s just a fact. We can regret that. That’s doesn’t mean that the doctrine of the “reformers” was correct.
What no one ever seems to recognize is that doctrine was never, truly, affected, by any of this. Why? Because Jesus promised it wouldn’t be. Sure, those that broke away inserted their own interpretation, but, truly, that has no meaning/substance. Any doctrine that has withstood the test of time for over a thousand years does not give way to the ego of a small few. And yet the so-called Protestant reformers thought they could do that, they thought they could substitute their own ideas for existing doctrine. They were utterly and totally wrong. The “abuses” that they mostly objected to, some of which were very real, did not affect doctrine, the things that they objected to affected PRACTICE.
Now, hundreds of years later, we have “Bible Scholars” preaching to us about the BIBLE ~ which was compiled by CATHOLICS (Hello!) ~ except for the parts that the Reformation folks, in their display of ego, felt the need to THROW OUT ~ and here, at CAF, we have people telling CATHOLICS what the BIBLE means? This is pretty much arrogance personified. Where in the world does that sort of thinking come from except from ego and arrogance? Does anyone ever think things through? Or do they just “spout”? Spouting has no intellectual value. Or maybe, just maybe, do they just not KNOW and they need to actually learn?
I was a Protestant once, because I didn’t know any better. I’m here to tell the Protestants ~ it’s time to stop fighting for the sake of fighting. Most of the stuff you’re fighting with Catholics about is buried in Tradition. Why? Because “way back when” people didn’t feel the need to write stuff down that was understood and obvious to everyone. And yet you hang your hat on the fact that if it’s not in the Bible (which you mostly refrain from giving the slightest consideration to Catholics for even PROVIDING to you) then it’s not “true”.
I have news for you. What about the Last Supper? Do you think Jesus, as a Jew Himself, needed to be told how it worked? what needed to be done and said? No. But that’s not written down EITHER. And yet you accept it. Why? Get a clue folks ~ stuff that is ARGUABLE is written down for clarity. Stuff that “everyone knows” ISN’T written down. USE THE BRAIN GOD GAVE YOU! Stop looking for everything in the Bible ~ the stuff that is there is there to clear up misunderstanding and heresy. No one, back when they were writing it, ever thought it had “everything”. If you read the history of just the compilation of the Bible you know that. Do you refrain from doing that because it’s too “Catholic”? Why? You read the Bible don’t you? Why stop there?
All this is why the complete deposit of the Faith, the faith founded by Jesus Himself, is found in the Catholic Church, because it’s all there. Everyone else is missing this part or that part because, well, just because. I’m not going to label it, I’m just going to say it’s there.
So, consider, what would it cost you, really, to conform your understanding to that of the Church founded by Jesus? What, really, is the problem? Because Jesus founded this Church, and promised that it would stand forever, notwithstanding whatever egregious abuses of its members. He made a promise. He has kept it. What’s your excuse?
Let’s proceed from the construct that we Catholics believe ~ that Jesus founded our Church. Some practices, very obviously, had been corrupted by persons (humans!) by the time of the Reformation. I think we can all admit that it would have been better for the reformation to have taken place within the Church. But it didn’t. That’s too bad.
Along the way of Reformation, it’s pretty easy to see that a certain amount of Human Ego got involved too. So while they were busy breaking away from the church founded by Jesus Christ to “reform” religious practice, they also inserted their own personal viewpoints. We can see evidence of such human activity EVEN TODAY if we care to look.
It is often irresistible, no matter how noble your motives, to put your own personal stamp on something. Things like that occurred because the Catholic Church, at the time, did not react appropriately, and quickly enough, to the abuses of the time. That’s just a fact. We can regret that. That’s doesn’t mean that the doctrine of the “reformers” was correct.
What no one ever seems to recognize is that doctrine was never, truly, affected, by any of this. Why? Because Jesus promised it wouldn’t be. Sure, those that broke away inserted their own interpretation, but, truly, that has no meaning/substance. Any doctrine that has withstood the test of time for over a thousand years does not give way to the ego of a small few. And yet the so-called Protestant reformers thought they could do that, they thought they could substitute their own ideas for existing doctrine. They were utterly and totally wrong. The “abuses” that they mostly objected to, some of which were very real, did not affect doctrine, the things that they objected to affected PRACTICE.
Now, hundreds of years later, we have “Bible Scholars” preaching to us about the BIBLE ~ which was compiled by CATHOLICS (Hello!) ~ except for the parts that the Reformation folks, in their display of ego, felt the need to THROW OUT ~ and here, at CAF, we have people telling CATHOLICS what the BIBLE means? This is pretty much arrogance personified. Where in the world does that sort of thinking come from except from ego and arrogance? Does anyone ever think things through? Or do they just “spout”? Spouting has no intellectual value. Or maybe, just maybe, do they just not KNOW and they need to actually learn?
I was a Protestant once, because I didn’t know any better. I’m here to tell the Protestants ~ it’s time to stop fighting for the sake of fighting. Most of the stuff you’re fighting with Catholics about is buried in Tradition. Why? Because “way back when” people didn’t feel the need to write stuff down that was understood and obvious to everyone. And yet you hang your hat on the fact that if it’s not in the Bible (which you mostly refrain from giving the slightest consideration to Catholics for even PROVIDING to you) then it’s not “true”.
I have news for you. What about the Last Supper? Do you think Jesus, as a Jew Himself, needed to be told how it worked? what needed to be done and said? No. But that’s not written down EITHER. And yet you accept it. Why? Get a clue folks ~ stuff that is ARGUABLE is written down for clarity. Stuff that “everyone knows” ISN’T written down. USE THE BRAIN GOD GAVE YOU! Stop looking for everything in the Bible ~ the stuff that is there is there to clear up misunderstanding and heresy. No one, back when they were writing it, ever thought it had “everything”. If you read the history of just the compilation of the Bible you know that. Do you refrain from doing that because it’s too “Catholic”? Why? You read the Bible don’t you? Why stop there?
All this is why the complete deposit of the Faith, the faith founded by Jesus Himself, is found in the Catholic Church, because it’s all there. Everyone else is missing this part or that part because, well, just because. I’m not going to label it, I’m just going to say it’s there.
So, consider, what would it cost you, really, to conform your understanding to that of the Church founded by Jesus? What, really, is the problem? Because Jesus founded this Church, and promised that it would stand forever, notwithstanding whatever egregious abuses of its members. He made a promise. He has kept it. What’s your excuse?
J
jean8
Guest
quan,
You may want to read Rom.2:10-11
I’ll type this out for you.
"Verse 10-11, "But glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11. For God does not show ‘favoritism’.
Surprise, the Lord loves us all.
You worship in your church as I do in mine. There is only one God and he is Omnipresent.God bless,
jean8
J
jean8
Guest
ads,
“God does not show favoritism.” Rom.2:11
Be watchful for the sin of pride. Prov.16;18
God bless,
jean8
J
jean8
Guest
Melanie,
I agree with your post. “thou shalt not kill.”(5th. commandment)
I have two daughters. when they were teens, I told them, in the event you get pregnant, we do not kill babies in this family. You will give birth, if this happens to you.
I think they were more afraid of me than of God.
As it turned out, they were both married when they had their babies. ‘Thank you Jesus’ .
God bless you,
jean8
M
Matariel
Guest
Excellent post.
J
John_Hendrix
Guest
J
John_Hendrix
Guest
A better question would be why did God allow the church to be used to reinstate the pagan Roman Empire and why did it take so long for godly men to be willing to die to cast of the bonds of the evil empire of Rome?
He allows men freedom of choice. The RCC is not mentioned in the Bible , it is an invention of man.
J
John_Hendrix
Guest
The Catholic Church was emphatically opposed to the idea of religious freedom, and still is. Without the Protestant Reformation it would not exist. The first place on earth it existed was Rhode Island, a Baptist colony.
As far as Catholics and there supposed stand on abortion the majority of Catholics voted for the most pro-baby murder President in history. You don;t walk the walk so why I should I listen to your talk?
The blood of babies in other countries as well as America is on ever so called Christian who voter for him.
The Catholics are not alone in this but they are the most 2 faced.
As far as Catholics and there supposed stand on abortion the majority of Catholics voted for the most pro-baby murder President in history. You don;t walk the walk so why I should I listen to your talk?
The blood of babies in other countries as well as America is on ever so called Christian who voter for him.
The Catholics are not alone in this but they are the most 2 faced.
L
look3467
Guest
When I say I believe in universal salvation it includes everybody period.
That is the reason why I am able to say brother or sister, and why I should love my enemies.
Jesus has enabled freedom of the soul from eternal separation as was not prior to His sacrifice.
That is why Paul says: Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
If liberty were a progressive work, then it could not be said "use it not for an occasion to the flesh.
What is liberty, or rather liberty from what?
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Free from what? What is this liberty that was evident?
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
What? They wanted to again require these free liberated disciples to come under bondage?
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
We were married (in bondage to) to the consequence of eternal death via the story of Adam and Eve.
In Jesus the former spouse (Death) is dead and Jesus replaced it with life, the new spouse.
This is that liberty spoken of, freedom from the death sentence, therefore when it is squired, Paul says: 1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
Here is understanding: Eternal death had been crucified at the cross. It was the end of it and the beginning of the new.
If we take the number 8, turn it horizontally, stretch it out, we have the sign of infinity right?
At the center of that sign the lines cross right?
If we open both ends of that sign we can see that the left half end of it gives us a picture of the beginning of life and to the right of that same half coming to an end when the lines cross.
We see a picture of the old coming to and end.
The right half of that same sign has a beginning at the cross and the right hand of that sign is open, meaning there is no end, but eternal.
That was just a simple picture of looking at both the old and the new divided by the cross.
We are in the new end of it because the old has come to and end in Christ’s cross.
If eternal death has been eliminated at the cross and life given free of charge, than it means every soul will be, if not now, eventually saved.
We can now understand why Paul says, do not use this liberty for our own gain, but to use it to serve God.
So, you can see my view includes everybody and why I am able to love everybody first, as brothers and sisters, and given to understand why I should love my enemies.
I give everybody the choice to worship God how they want because God’s spirit is who touches the hearts.
Condemnation is not from God, but from ourselves. We are responsible for this new found freedom in liberty, and we are either blessed or cursed according to our behavior.
This world is the spanking child evidenced by the evil that is done both in the secular world and the religious world.
I need not remind you of the misbehavior of some of the priests, let alone the misbehavior of some of the evangelists as well.
So then, the individual responsibility is to seek out the truth through study of the scriptures and trust no man concerning the requirements to adhere to this or that.
Jesus left us two commandments period!
We are free to exercise these two from the will and not from the requirement.
When born again, the desire is towards God, to change (repent) our thinking to conform to the new.
To exercise love, as He loved us.
Note: It is important to understand that when Christ was dying on the cross, there was no discriminating as to who He was paying the price for.
I hope you get a picture of what my view is.
It is not to tear down an institution by discriminating its beliefs, but that while they are in those beliefs, enlighten them to the wonderful gift of life we have in Jesus.
Peace>>>AJ
D
distracted
Guest
yeah, our coutnry is wonderful… started out discriminating against Catholics, then started killing off the Indians & taking thier land… imported slaves from Africa, many of whom died en route in the totally inhumane conditions of the cargo ships… and even when they were freed, this country didn’t do anything to help them much… Then in 1973 the Constitituion was violated for the 100th time, the people denied a say in whether baby murder was to be legalized… and now 45 million unborn children have been exterminated… and the most pro-abortion senator of all is now our president…
Wonderful legacy…
This is the kind of thing Catholicism could have prevented… but since M. Luther, people just kept wanting to abandon the True Church… and they still are abandoning Her… and always will…
Or-
As Jesus said: The road to eternal life is narrow and there are few who find it… many will try to enter Heaven but will not be strong enough (too busy stealing land, murdering babies, etc… things Protestants did far more than Catholics…)
L
look3467
Guest
God has given mankind authority over the earth.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Jesus honored the government of man that than was because He submitted to it in His crucifixion.
That is consistent with the freedom to worship Him as we will.
Now, America is a great nation to be, by that I mean that the united states started out as like an infant, who had to grow amidst all the obstacles that it had to overcome.
And we have overcome many obstacles not by any easy means, but with blood, the only redeeming value that causes a change in the mind of this infant trying to grow to adult hood.
That is why freedom of the individual is of vital importance, because once that is lost, the gain would be lost.
Abortion, religious discrimination, and all other issues that are not of God are to be worked out by the freedom loving people who will not tolerate ungodly values.
If “we” do not fight to hold our laws, our godly values to the feet of our nation, we shall reap our own consequences.
The decay of evil running rampant in our nation is a turn away from God and therefore, subject to our own consequences.
What is needed is a revival to Godly values, not in government, but in our daily lives, for there we can reach anybody, any where God sends us.
Government can not be religious because it can lead to religious persecutions of all unbelievers.
So, yes, America is a great country, as long as its citizens hold to good values.
Peace>>>AJ
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Jesus honored the government of man that than was because He submitted to it in His crucifixion.
That is consistent with the freedom to worship Him as we will.
Now, America is a great nation to be, by that I mean that the united states started out as like an infant, who had to grow amidst all the obstacles that it had to overcome.
And we have overcome many obstacles not by any easy means, but with blood, the only redeeming value that causes a change in the mind of this infant trying to grow to adult hood.
That is why freedom of the individual is of vital importance, because once that is lost, the gain would be lost.
Abortion, religious discrimination, and all other issues that are not of God are to be worked out by the freedom loving people who will not tolerate ungodly values.
If “we” do not fight to hold our laws, our godly values to the feet of our nation, we shall reap our own consequences.
The decay of evil running rampant in our nation is a turn away from God and therefore, subject to our own consequences.
What is needed is a revival to Godly values, not in government, but in our daily lives, for there we can reach anybody, any where God sends us.
Government can not be religious because it can lead to religious persecutions of all unbelievers.
So, yes, America is a great country, as long as its citizens hold to good values.
Peace>>>AJ
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
AJ ~
If you believe in “universal salvation” as you have stated, then does that mean you believe that unrepentant atheists like Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin are saved? The worst of the worst? Or does acceptance of Jesus’ saving sacrifice come into play?
Also, I take it from your lengthy post that you are no longer asserting that Catholics are not saved, despite the fact that you have repeatedly done so before? You are renouncing those former statements?
If you believe in “universal salvation” as you have stated, then does that mean you believe that unrepentant atheists like Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin are saved? The worst of the worst? Or does acceptance of Jesus’ saving sacrifice come into play?
Also, I take it from your lengthy post that you are no longer asserting that Catholics are not saved, despite the fact that you have repeatedly done so before? You are renouncing those former statements?
A
adstrinity
Guest
Mmmm-hmmmm, and not only do we acknowledge we as a country have done wrong, we do pennance for it now. We do not discriminate nationally against Catholics anymore, and we have a say in what our government does.
We ARE the best country in the world. Which wouldn’t have happened as it has if not for the Pilgrims coming over here which they did because they were being persecuted by the Church of England which decided to split because Henry VIII saw that Luther did it.
M
Matariel
Guest
Actually, it did not decide to split “because Henry VIII saw Luther do it”. The English Revolt happened for completely different reasons than Luther and Calvin’s Protestant Revolt. Anglicans, although they are sometimes called Protestants, are actually not, they are their own branch of Christianity, and are theologically and stylistically quite a different animal from Protestants. Although they lost apostolic succession from the Edwardian ordinals, in the 1930’s there was a massive re-ordering of Anglican lines of bishops using Old Catholic lines, which are valid. (note, this was after Apostolici Curæ so it was not taken into account) Unfortunately, Anglican lines are now diluted from ordination of women “bishops”. Traditional Continuing Anglicans, for the most part, have maintained valid apostolic succession though. So they are really a whole 'nother issue from Protestants.
S
SteveGC
Guest
:yup: :clapping:
L
look3467
Guest
That is a popular question asked from all skeptics of universal salvation views.
The other one is “Oh, you mean I can sin all I want and still go to heaven?”
Listen, that view can only be understood outside all religious views because it does not fit the norm of their views.
To answer your first question, I want to ask you a question first as a form of an answer.
The High priest during Jesus’ time where they following the Mosaic law to the degree that if anyone coming giving another gospel should be put to death?
If you can answer yes, then you will have answered your own question because Jesus said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.
Not only were the High priests forgiven, but Judas and the Romans as well.
The issue that had to be dealt with by Jesus was eternal death.
Eternal death was upon all humanity regardless of religious or none religious views.
It was the sentence of eternal death that Jesus came to address.
Behavior has always been a factor in our blessings or cursing and of which is still the same today and tomorrow, but not a determining factor in the elimination of the eternal death sentence.
The wages of sin is death, says the word of God, meaning that upon our physical death, sin ceases to exist.
Otherwise, we are accountable for our own sins.
My assertion was that Catholics believe that apart from the Catholic Church salvation is a question.
My belief has been that all Catholics and all Protestant beliefs will be saved as well.
Where ever God has us to perform as believers, there is where He will be.
We are His representatives on earth!
Now, the issue of eternal death had to be addressed by God alone.
He, the creator subjected us to vanity to begin with resulting in our separation because of the flesh.
Did we choose to be subject to vanity? Or in other words, did you have a choice in being born in the flesh?
None what so ever right?
By the same token, we did not have a choice in the eradication of the death sentence, but were subjected in hope to life.
Look at the whole of the bible and see if that is not the trend.
We have, 1. creation 2. the fall. 3. judgment and 4. death/salvation.
That is consistent throughout the whole bible but is changed when Jesus is crucified.
Jesus changes the issue of eternal death to eternal life by the same 4 things I mentioned above.
- Creation, Jesus was formed in a body of flesh, introduced to the world with a difference, and that is that He was God in the flesh.
2.At the Garden when Jesus prayed, He took on the sins of the world, or as like fallen, (the fall for mankind as a whole). - The judgment of all our sins and death of the soul was upon Him, He was judged in our place.
- Death of the death sentence ended in salvation for all mankind.
Now, as for our behavior after we have received the gift of life, changes not because we still die physically.
So, the wages for our sins is the death of the physical.
In the case of Hitler and others, their behavior brought about an early death.
Have you wondered why Jesus only lived 33 years?
He was burdened with the sins of the world making Him the biggest and greatest sin laden ed person in the world, and unless God cut Him short, salvation of mankind might be in question.
That is biblical.
You discern what you want and live accordingly.
Peace>>>AJ
S
SteveGC
Guest
Just curious, jean…what are you agreeing with? I agree with it too, in it’s entirety…but I was wondering what the sidebar about your daughters had to do with Melanie’s post. I actually would also be interested in other non-Catholic’s honest assessment of that post.Melanie,
I agree with your post. “thou shalt not kill.”(5th. commandment)
I have two daughters. when they were teens, I told them, in the event you get pregnant, we do not kill babies in this family. You will give birth, if this happens to you.
I think they were more afraid of me than of God.
As it turned out, they were both married when they had their babies. ‘Thank you Jesus’ .
God bless you,
jean8
L
look3467
Guest
Anne, you said “Because Jesus founded this Church, and promised that it would stand forever”, define forever for me in light of the world being temporal?
Peace>>>AJ
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
Steve, I can’t speak for Jean of course, but I suspect she is responding to the quote from Fr. Corapi in my “signature”.
- Status