Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

[SteveGC]

In actuallity your saying to me that unless I agree with you to what the church means to you, I am not capable of debating it?

Wrong. I am saying that this is the issue up for debate. You are quite capable of debating it while not agreeing with it…that is, after all, the essence of a debate.

What I am saying to you is that it doesn’t matter to me whether the church is physical or not, but that the heart is where the real church is.

I would contend that it WOULD matter to you if you realized The Church was not merely physical, but united to Christ spiritually. It would matter a great deal to you…as much as you claim it wouldn’t.

One can go to church every Sunday, confess every Friday and do it over and over again to relieve the guilt that is within, but does never touch the heart to willfuly make a change (Repentance) from the former, is guilty to repeat it again.

No Catholic, who understands The Church’s teaching on repentance, EVER does it in this frame of mind. We are not “relieving guilt”, AJ. Where do you get such notions? From lukewarm Catholics, perhaps…but certainly not from Church teaching, nor devout Catholics. If this is what you truly believe, no wonder you have such a disdainful view of The Church. This proves my point earlier that you really have to revisit official Church teaching. When was the last time you read through the Catechism, AJ? Our repentance MUST be from the heart, MUST be from a desire to turn from sin, and turn back to God, hopefully in sorrow for offending Him.

God Bless

 

[look3467]

Okay…getting somewhere…maybe. So…not universal salvation then? right? We must believe, accept, and cooperate with grace, yes? Those who don’t…no salvation, right? We’re not all just “subjected” to holiness and bound for heaven, yes? If so, why do you think this is contrary to Catholic teaching? And…you’re right…we DO come to love God via His Holy Spirit…but the Holy Spirit is first and foremost united with The Church (not a building…Christ’s Bride…represented by The One Holy Catholic Church)…The Church is the channel through which The Holy Spirit comes to all the world, whether they are Catholic, protestant, non-denom, atheist…whatever.

God Bless

The great mystery to mankind is how could God love an unjust soul?

The example is depicted in the story of the Prodigal Son.

The righteous son could not see the father loving the unrighteous son.

Salvation is an acknowledged action in the flesh, and nonacknowledgement means it remains as is, lost.

So, it is to our advantage to enter into the kingdom via knowledge of salvation than not to, for there we shall recieve just reward.

But the curse remains if we do not.

Now, at the end of this life, whether we acknoledged salvation or not, the fact remains that the soul shall be saved.

What is lost is not salvation, but the joy of salvation had we heard of it and not accepted it.

That is where we all get stuck on, the defining of what salvation is, which is a mystery to our understanding.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MelanieAnne]

Wrong. I am saying that this is the issue up for debate. You are quite capable of debating it while not agreeing with it…that is, after all, the essence of a debate.

I would contend that it WOULD matter to you if you realized The Church was not merely physical, but united to Christ spiritually. It would matter a great deal to you…as much as you claim it wouldn’t.

No Catholic, who understands The Church’s teaching on repentance, EVER does it in this frame of mind. We are not “relieving guilt”, AJ. Where do you get such notions? From lukewarm Catholics, perhaps…but certainly not from Church teaching, nor devout Catholics. If this is what you truly believe, no wonder you have such a disdainful view of The Church. This proves my point earlier that you really have to revisit official Church teaching. When was the last time you read through the Catechism, AJ? Our repentance MUST be from the heart, MUST be from a desire to turn from sin, and turn back to God, hopefully in sorrow for offending Him.

God Bless

Hi Steve,

Yes, I think we have yet another example of someone who thinks they know what the Catholic Church stands for, and argues against it on that basis. Long-held, deeply-held notions, no matter how inaccurate, are difficult to release. Good luck!

And now I’ll throw another point into the discussion, since it appears pertinent ~

The CHURCH = all validly baptized Christians

It’s not a building, it’s not an organization or a hierarchical structure. WE are the Church. The Church also includes those who have already passed away who, during their life, could be described as a validly baptized Christian.

 

[look3467]

Wrong. I am saying that this is the issue up for debate. You are quite capable of debating it while not agreeing with it…that is, after all, the essence of a debate.

I would contend that it WOULD matter to you if you realized The Church was not merely physical, but united to Christ spiritually. It would matter a great deal to you…as much as you claim it wouldn’t.

No Catholic, who understands The Church’s teaching on repentance, EVER does it in this frame of mind. We are not “relieving guilt”, AJ. Where do you get such notions? From lukewarm Catholics, perhaps…but certainly not from Church teaching, nor devout Catholics. If this is what you truly believe, no wonder you have such a disdainful view of The Church. This proves my point earlier that you really have to revisit official Church teaching. When was the last time you read through the Catechism, AJ? Our repentance MUST be from the heart, MUST be from a desire to turn from sin, and turn back to God, hopefully in sorrow for offending Him.

God Bless

I have first hand experiece as I was once a Catholic, and I speak to that understanding.

But a yet a greater experience is one where I am enjoying the assurance of my salvation which has changed the way I will my desires to.

And that is priceless!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Matariel]

One can go to church every Sunday, confess every Friday and do it over and over again to relieve the guilt that is within, but does never touch the heart to willfuly make a change (Repentance) from the former, is guilty to repeat it again.

If you knew Church teaching, you would understand that a firm purpose of amendment (i.e., true repentance, turning away from sin) is required for the Sacrament of Reconciliation to take place. The Sacrament does not occur if one is lacking true repentance.

I know this, and I’m not even Catholic yet. I’m converting to the Church this Easter, I used to be an Protestant. One only need look at official Church documents or the Catechism to know these things.

 

[SteveGC]

The great mystery to mankind is how could God love an unjust soul?

The example is depicted in the story of the Prodigal Son.

The righteous son could not see the father loving the unrighteous son.

Salvation is an acknowledged action in the flesh, and nonacknowledgement means it remains as is, lost.

So, it is to our advantage to enter into the kingdom via knowledge of salvation than not to, for there we shall recieve just reward.

But the curse remains if we do not.

Now, at the end of this life, whether we acknoledged salvation or not, the fact remains that the soul shall be saved.

What is lost is not salvation, but the joy of salvation had we heard of it and not accepted it.

That is where we all get stuck on, the defining of what salvation is, which is a mystery to our understanding.

Peace>>>AJ

I assume you deny the existence of hell?

So, what happened to the “burden to live justly”. If I refuse the burden, and live unjustly, I’m saved but not “joyful” of knowing I am saved??

And just when I thought we were getting somewhere…

 

[look3467]

Hi Steve,

Yes, I think we have yet another example of someone who thinks they know what the Catholic Church stands for, and argues against it on that basis. Long-held, deeply-held notions, no matter how inaccurate, are difficult to release. Good luck!

And now I’ll throw another point into the discussion, since it appears pertinent ~

The CHURCH = all validly baptized Christians

It’s not a building, it’s not an organization or a hierarchical structure. WE are the Church. The Church also includes those who have already passed away who, during their life, could be described as a validly baptized Christian.

Oh, now the word “validity”?

Well, I guess that leaves me out?

What else can I say?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[SteveGC]

I have first hand experiece as I was once a Catholic, and I speak to that understanding.

But a yet a greater experience is one where I am enjoying the assurance of my salvation which has changed the way I will my desires to.

And that is priceless!

Peace>>>AJ

I must be so bold as to presume and offer to you that your Catholic experience was played out under severely poor catechesis, AJ. Either the fault of the catechist, or the catechumen (usually a combination). But never the fault of Catholic doctrine. Never.

God Bless

 

[Matariel]

Oh, now the word “validity”?

Well, I guess that leaves me out?

What else can I say?

Peace>>>AJ

No, if you were baptized with water, in the Name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit you have a valid baptism.

For instance, I’m entering the Church, and they recognized my Nazarene baptism, because it was done properly. Technically, I’m reconciling with the Church, not joining it, since baptism makes you a part of the Church, although it’s an imperfect union if you are Protestant.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have invalid baptisms, because they have a different concept of “God” and they baptize in Jesus’ Name only.

 

[SteveGC]

Oh, now the word “validity”?

Well, I guess that leaves me out?

What else can I say?

Peace>>>AJ

You can say alot, AJ. We don’t attempt to silence you, nor exclude you. No one is excluded. Is baptism (or atleast the desire of it) a salvific essential? Absolutely. But you can still say alot. You can keep on defending your version of The Church, claiming it is merely physical man-made “stuff”…or…

you can take moments out of your time spent proclaiming the “just me, Jesus and what’s in my heart” gospel…and get back into official Church teaching from sources qualified to teach you sound fundamentals…pray that God show you the truth that IS Jesus Himself, united to His Church…and get back to your Catholic roots.

Or, you can insist on your version of Christianity, and forever be ignorant of what The Church truly is.

God Bless

 

[look3467]

I assume you deny the existence of hell?

So, what happened to the “burden to live justly”. If I refuse the burden, and live unjustly, I’m saved but not “joyful” of knowing I am saved??

And just when I thought we were getting somewhere…

If your claims of being a believer becomes a burden then it must not being done from the heart.

The burden then is to live just, willingly, as no claims need be made, for the testimony will tell of what we are.

Now, concerning hell, wouldn’t it make sense that if I claim universal salvation, there would be no existence of the understood hell?
Fear of hell, as understood is not a genuine motive to seek God by, but rather understood a place not wanting to go to.

Fear of God, on the other hand is respect for God, His laws and desires which should be the motive to live just.

Hell, then in that sense, does not exist.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MelanieAnne]

Oh, now the word “validity”?

Well, I guess that leaves me out?

What else can I say?

Peace>>>AJ

A valid baptism is one where one is baptized in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit. It involves the pouring of water or immersion therein. It normally involves a member of the clergy to perform the rite, but in an emergency that is not necessary. There are only a few exceptions where the validity of a baptism is questioned and those exceptions are not pertinent to the subject at hand.

If you were once a Catholic, and were baptized in the Catholic Faith, then you are not “out” as you have described it. Baptism is done once and is permanent.

 

[MelanieAnne]

If your claims of being a believer becomes a burden then it must not being done from the heart.

The burden then is to live just, willingly, as no claims need be made, for the testimony will tell of what we are.

Now, concerning hell, wouldn’t it make sense that if I claim universal salvation, there would be no existence of the understood hell?
Fear of hell, as understood is not a genuine motive to seek God by, but rather understood a place not wanting to go to.

Fear of God, on the other hand is respect for God, His laws and desires which should be the motive to live just.

Hell, then in that sense, does not exist.

Peace>>>AJ

:banghead:

 

[look3467]

You can say alot, AJ. We don’t attempt to silence you, nor exclude you. No one is excluded. Is baptism (or atleast the desire of it) a salvific essential? Absolutely. But you can still say alot. You can keep on defending your version of The Church, claiming it is merely physical man-made “stuff”…or…

you can take moments out of your time spent proclaiming the “just me, Jesus and what’s in my heart” gospel…and get back into official Church teaching from sources qualified to teach you sound fundamentals…pray that God show you the truth that IS Jesus Himself, united to His Church…and get back to your Catholic roots.

Or, you can insist on your version of Christianity, and forever be ignorant of what The Church truly is.

God Bless

I should than park my souls heart at the door and than enter into the church as there in only makes me lajit.

Forget the heart, the circumscion of the heart?

What if, after I am circumscized in heart, than I enter in?

Would that make you happy?

Of course it would!

But as it is, I am circumcied in heart and have entered into the kingdom of God while yet in the flesh, for now the kingdom of God is with man.

Either way Steve, I have no quams concerning any of the churches beliefs or practices since I am of the view that all are going to be in heaven eventually.

Its just a matter of how we choose to worship.

Do pray for me though, that I can agree with whole hardily, as I will for all of you as well.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[SteveGC]

If your claims of being a believer becomes a burden then it must not being done from the heart.

The burden then is to live just, willingly, as no claims need be made, for the testimony will tell of what we are.

Now, concerning hell, wouldn’t it make sense that if I claim universal salvation, there would be no existence of the understood hell?
Fear of hell, as understood is not a genuine motive to seek God by, but rather understood a place not wanting to go to.

Fear of God, on the other hand is respect for God, His laws and desires which should be the motive to live just.

Hell, then in that sense, does not exist.

Peace>>>AJ

I know you don’t sense your own paradoxes, AJ. So, again, help me. We have a burden, but we’re not to claim it as such. So, what if we do claim it as a burden? Saved anyway? Saved only if we willingly accept the burden? In other words…what happens to the soul that claims it as a burden, and/or refuses to live according to that “burden”? I’m assuming they’re saved too?

I’m sorry I brought up “hell”. I can see I just opened another can-o-worms. Someone else can jump on that if they want to.

God Bless

 

[look3467]

:banghead:

Darn that AJ, if he would only listen!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

I know you don’t sense your own paradoxes, AJ. So, again, help me. We have a burden, but we’re not to claim it as such. So, what if we do claim it as a burden? Saved anyway? Saved only if we willingly accept the burden? In other words…what happens to the soul that claims it as a burden, and/or refuses to live according to that “burden”? I’m assuming they’re saved too?

I’m sorry I brought up “hell”. I can see I just opened another can-o-worms. Someone else can jump on that if they want to.

God Bless

Let me get back to you on this one, please forgive me, Gotta go for now.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MelanieAnne]

Darn that AJ, if he would only listen!

Peace>>>AJ

No, one thing we know is you’re not damned AJ, you’ve made that very clear.

And the idea of you being “hard of listening” is not what generated that response. It is frustrating for me as a Catholic, that’s all, to attempt dialog with someone who insists on telling us Catholics about our Faith, when they don’t actually understand the Catholic Faith. And then, when the correct information is given to them, that person refuses to consider it. The frustration doesn’t come so much from the refusal to listen, but is related to the steadfast clinging to error.

“Not 100 people hate the Catholic Church; but there are many who hate what they think is the Catholic Church.” Archbishop Fulton Sheen"

 

[SteveGC]

I should than park my souls heart at the door and than enter into the church as there in only makes me lajit.

Forget the heart, the circumscion of the heart?

What if, after I am circumscized in heart, than I enter in?

Would that make you happy?

Of course it would!

But as it is, I am circumcied in heart and have entered into the kingdom of God while yet in the flesh, for now the kingdom of God is with man.

Either way Steve, I have no quams concerning any of the churches beliefs or practices since I am of the view that all are going to be in heaven eventually.

Its just a matter of how we choose to worship.

Do pray for me though, that I can agree with whole hardily, as I will for all of you as well.

Peace>>>AJ

In an attempt to translate your words here, AJ…

I think you’re saying…“look, I’ve come so far with the knowledge I have gained, I am circumsized of heart, God dwells within me…why would I now go to some man-made edifice, follow some man-made tradition, and deny the knowledge God has placed within me?”

How’s that? Pretty accurate?

How about this response? Yes…I would hope (and certainly pray) that you would do that…return to The Church, but not under the rationale that you hold so tightly in your heart, and certainly not to make me happy (although that might just be an after-effect). Rather, I would want you to do this because somehow, along your way, you have severed yourself from the truth. Not that you are severed from God. Not at all. I truly believe Christ dwells in you, even if I believe that is possible because of His Church on earth. But you have severed yourself from His Body. Not his physical body, nor a physical building. But His mystical body, His teaching authority, His instrument of distributing graces. It happens to include the physical “things” you think it’s limited to. But again, if you devote yourself to discerning the truth of The Church, open yourself up to it again, you will see.

God Bless

 

[distracted]

That is why freedom of the individual is of vital importance, because once that is lost, the gain would be lost.

one must never condone, as the US always has, the freedom to do whatever one chooses to one’s neighbor (Blacks, Indians, Catholics, the unborn)…

Abortion, religious discrimination, and all other issues that are not of God are to be worked out by the freedom loving people who will not tolerate ungodly values.

well, so far, we’ve been fighting abortion for 35 years… and its still legal and probably will be for a long time… the blood goes on spilling into the streets… and people just step over on their way to the voting booth to vote for Mr. Most Pro Abortion Senator of All so they can have a better economy and possibly make more $…

Government can not be religious because it can lead to religious persecutions of all unbelievers.

“religion” cannot logically be separated from “government”. The whole reason for governemnt is that people need to be governed becaues humans left to themselves tend to be very irreligious (greedy, lustful, etc.)… True religion is the ONLY thing that will keep us from killing each other off… You cannot separate the two. They are virtually the same thing…

So, yes, America is a great country, as long as its citizens hold to good values.

AJ

well, then, you agree with me… America is not a great nation… It may be somewhat better than others in certain ways but it is far from great, OBJECTIVELY speaking…