Why do you use NFP/avoid ABC?

[JDB823]

It doesn’t always work and when it doesn’t work someone gets blamed and put in an impossible situation. It introduces that idea of abortion as a “solution to the problem” or an “easy fix.” If you treat your body so carelessly it’s hard to imagine treating a pregnancy any differently.

Not necessarily. One could see the fetus as a separate entity and abortion as a violation of the rights of the fetus. Not every couple who uses contraception marches down to the abortion clinic when it doesn’t work. I know far too many who haven’t to believe that contraception always leads to abortion.

But if one views the body as your property, it does make abortion easier. An unwanted pregnancy is an unwelcome trespasser in the property of the woman. While some would find the killing of the trespasser to be morally repugnant as an overreaction to a temporary problem, others would consider this justified.

This is also why there is greater public support for abortion in the cases of rape and incest, even in cases when the pregnancy is healthy and can safely be carried to term. In these cases, the pregnancy is seen a bona fide intruder and has not been “invited” onto the property even through consent to the sexual act.

The pro-choice rallying call “My body, my choice” is an assertion of a woman’s rights over her own body. It only makes sense that a woman would say that if she views her body as property. Logically, if the body is not her own property, it must be the property of someone else, which leads to the accusation that the Catholic Church wants to control women’s bodies. (That being said, with men treating women’s bodies as property throughout history, these women’s fears are not entirely unfounded.)

The Catholic Church, on the other hand, emphatically rejects the idea that the body is mere property. In the Catholic understanding, there is no conflict between the woman and the fetus. The pregnancy is the natural result of the proper functioning of the woman’s reproductive system.** The natural end result of this function is the birth of a baby. Besides the ending of a fetal life, the termination of a pregnancy, even a pregnancy conceived from rape or incest, forcibly interrupts the proper functioning of the woman’s reproductive system and is a violation of the inherent dignity of a woman’s body.

Notably, most Protestants have accepted the idea that the body is property. Protestant teachings on sexuality are either little different from secular ones on the left or even more frightening on the right. This explains the conservative Protestant obsession with (female) virginity and the idea that spouses have rights over the other’s body. The physical aspect of marriage is not a unity of two persons, but a mutual exchange of property rights. Under this system of belief, the law, in its magnanimous equality, requires both husbands and wives to submit to the other’s desire for sex.

** Termination of an unhealthy or dangerous pregnancy is primarily an issue of medical ethics and beyond the scope of this subject.

 

[Em_in_FL]

But if one views the body as your property, it does make abortion easier. An unwanted pregnancy is an unwelcome trespasser in the property of the woman. While some would find the killing of the trespasser to be morally repugnant as an overreaction to a temporary problem, others would consider this justified.

This is also why there is greater public support for abortion in the cases of rape and incest, even in cases when the pregnancy is healthy and can safely be carried to term. In these cases, the pregnancy is seen a bona fide intruder and has not been “invited” onto the property even through consent to the sexual act.

This is a really skewed way of thinking.
The justification for killing a trespasser is if that was done in self defense, not simply for “intruding”.
Besides, it’s truly rare (medically) when the baby itself is posing a life-threatening situation to the mother. In the cases of rape and incest alone… this is not the case. That little human being becomes the *second *victim of a crime, not the criminal.

 

[JDB823]

This is a really skewed way of thinking.
The justification for killing a trespasser is if that was done in self defense, not simply for “intruding”.
Besides, it’s truly rare (medically) when the baby itself is posing a life-threatening situation to the mother. In the cases of rape and incest alone… this is not the case. That little human being becomes the *second *victim of a crime, not the criminal.

The pregnancy itself and the risks and inconvenience thereof is viewed as an assault on the woman’s body, which provides the justification.

If the body is property that exists only for the use and enjoyment of the owner (the woman), then this is completely logically consistent.

If the body is property, then an unwanted pregnancy is a parasite. Forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy violates her most intimate property rights. This is how some can speak of women being “punished with a baby.”

If the body is property, then a wanted pregnancy is merely another use of the body. This justifies all sorts of unhealthy methods of becoming pregnant. Life issues aside, IVF and other artificial methods of reproduction are HORRIBLE on a woman’s body. OTOH, Church approved methods of infertility treatment, such as NaProTechnology, work by restoring health so that the couple can conceive naturally.

If the body is property, a pregnancy can go from unwanted to wanted. This change may even be celebrated, like in the movie Juno. (Although Juno decides against abortion, she does so in a pro-choice context. Nevertheless, that birth is a preferred choice over abortion is a step in the right direction morally.) Or it can go from wanted to unwanted, which is why the abortion of less-than-perfect children is increasingly socially acceptable.

The implications of this line of thought are even more troubling after birth. Instead of starting out life as a person with their own human dignity, the child begins as creation of the bodies of his or her parents. As a result, the child is at least somewhat seen as being the parents’ property.

The obvious implication of this line of thought is that it makes child abuse psychologically easier. A far less obvious implication is that this also leads to overparenting and competitive parenting. If the child is a creation of the parents, then the child is a reflection on the parents. And if the child is a reflection on the parents, the parents have a tremendous amount of pressure to keep the child from reflecting badly on the parents. Failure of the child becomes failure of the parent. And if a child is not allowed to fail (within reason), the child cannot learn.

The tremendous amount of energy spent in “polishing” children is one reason why modern suburban parents often find their children more of a burden than a blessing. Couples have enough trouble raising two perfect children, how could they possibly raise six or eight? But this is not healthy for children and one of the reason so many young people “fail to launch” in their twenties.

All these years, I never saw the importance about why the Catholic Church thinks the way they it does about the human body or why they would teach that we do not really “own” our bodies. But the implications of thinking of the body as property are deeply troubling.

 

[Em_in_FL]

The pregnancy itself and the risks and inconvenience thereof is viewed as an assault on the woman’s body, which provides the justification.

If the body is property that exists only for the use and enjoyment of the owner (the woman), then this is completely logically consistent.

If the body is property, then an unwanted pregnancy is a parasite. Forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy violates her most intimate property rights. This is how some can speak of women being “punished with a baby.”

If the body is property, then a wanted pregnancy is merely another use of the body. This justifies all sorts of unhealthy methods of becoming pregnant. Life issues aside, IVF and other artificial methods of reproduction are HORRIBLE on a woman’s body. OTOH, Church approved methods of infertility treatment, such as NaProTechnology, work by restoring health so that the couple can conceive naturally.

If the body is property, a pregnancy can go from unwanted to wanted. This change may even be celebrated, like in the movie Juno. (Although Juno decides against abortion, she does so in a pro-choice context. Nevertheless, that birth is a preferred choice over abortion is a step in the right direction morally.) Or it can go from wanted to unwanted, which is why the abortion of less-than-perfect children is increasingly socially acceptable.

The implications of this line of thought are even more troubling after birth. Instead of starting out life as a person with their own human dignity, the child begins as creation of the bodies of his or her parents. As a result, the child is at least somewhat seen as being the parents’ property.

The obvious implication of this line of thought is that it makes child abuse psychologically easier. A far less obvious implication is that this also leads to overparenting and competitive parenting. If the child is a creation of the parents, then the child is a reflection on the parents. And if the child is a reflection on the parents, the parents have a tremendous amount of pressure to keep the child from reflecting badly on the parents. Failure of the child becomes failure of the parent. And if a child is not allowed to fail (within reason), the child cannot learn.

The tremendous amount of energy spent in “polishing” children is one reason why modern suburban parents often find their children more of a burden than a blessing. Couples have enough trouble raising two perfect children, how could they possibly raise six or eight? But this is not healthy for children and one of the reason so many young people “fail to launch” in their twenties.

All these years, I never saw the importance about why the Catholic Church thinks the way they it does about the human body or why they would teach that we do not really “own” our bodies. But the implications of thinking of the body as property are deeply troubling.

I think I agree with most of what you’re saying…
I’m not sure if you’re trying to argue/contradict me or not??
I’m having a difficult time capturing your point of view and what this has to do with your OP???

 

[JDB823]

I think I agree with most of what you’re saying…
I’m not sure if you’re trying to argue/contradict me or not??
I’m having a difficult time capturing your point of view and what this has to do with your OP???

I think I have changed my mind about some things. I can do that, can’t I?

The question I asked earlier was based on certain assumptions that the responders did not hold, which is why I got the responses I did. I was making certain assumptions in asking the OP that I had never considered questioning. I do appreciate those who challenge my assumptions, leading me to a new line of thinking.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I think I have changed my mind about some things. I can do that, can’t I?

The question I asked earlier was based on certain assumptions that the responders did not hold, which is why I got the responses I did. I was making certain assumptions in asking the OP that I had never considered questioning. I do appreciate those who challenge my assumptions, leading me to a new line of thinking.

GOTCHA! I was just confused! (which can happen easily!)

 

[VeronicaM]

I have a question about NFP–what if the wife wants a baby, but the husband doesn’t.

NFP leaves it up to the woman. Other than abstinence, how could the husband ensure that an unplanned pregnancy doesn’t occur? In other words, what can he do? It’s his wife that does the calendar counting.

I hope that this question is clear. Please let me know if it isn’t.

 

[kristacecilia]

I have a question about NFP–what if the wife wants a baby, but the husband doesn’t.

NFP leaves it up to the woman. Other than abstinence, how could the husband ensure that an unplanned pregnancy doesn’t occur? In other words, what can he do? It’s his wife that does the calendar counting.

I hope that this question is clear. Please let me know if it isn’t.

If you want people to see your question you may want to start a new thread on the subject. Otherwise it might get lost here.

Both spouses should be involved in the charting process and aware of what is going on in the woman’s cycle. This is MUTUAL fertility, not the woman’s fertility, that is being monitored.

 

[ryecroft]

NFP, when we’ve used it to prevent pregnancy for us has been a nightmare. I’m a little different than most as I do have some medical problems which I had been on the pill for - (licitly) - we had 2 unplanned pregnancies on NFP while following the rules to the hilt - very, very conservative. There are people it works wonderfully for - but my best friend just had her 4th pregnancy - her second “oops” (her word) - pregnancy - they were very conservative too. NFP works for some - and not so wonderfully for others- my big problem is that the way you find out NFP has not worked for you is that you have a positive pregnancy test.
God Bless and Good Luck
Rye

 

[Iheartcoffee]

My husband and I use NFP and we love it. Most of our friends use it as well and none of us have ever had a “surprise” pregnancy. NFP is much safer than contraceptives and it really works. We have also found that NFP has done wonders for our communication. NFP requires communication between spouses about some very intimate details of the wife’s body. If you can discuss that, you can discuss ANYTHING.

 

[ryecroft]

Oh, my.

An IUD works by causing early abortions.

Please, please, help her see that this is an evil device.

8
I’m sorry but staying this as fact is going a but far. It MAY but it has never been proven outright. Its hypothesized this may happen but it is not a proven fact.
God bless, rye

 

[PaulinVA]

I have a question about NFP–what if the wife wants a baby, but the husband doesn’t.

NFP leaves it up to the woman. Other than abstinence, how could the husband ensure that an unplanned pregnancy doesn’t occur? In other words, what can he do? It’s his wife that does the calendar counting.

I hope that this question is clear. Please let me know if it isn’t.

My wife takes her temp and makes her observations. I interpret the chart. I never tell her, “Hey, we need 98 degrees today” because that could subconsciously affect how she reads the thermometer. So, it’s really me who says, “Sorry, not yet.” And, I would never lie to her about that.

We’ve used NFP for over 20 years because the Church told us it is the only way to regulate births. Total abstinence is the alternative. We have been 100% successful with it, but are not happy with it. It’s a real burden. The reason that NFP couples have such a low divorce rate is not that it strengthens couples or has this great benefit - you have to have a really strong marriage to practice it. The strong marriage comes first.

 

[VeronicaM]

My wife takes her temp and makes her observations. I interpret the chart. I never tell her, “Hey, we need 98 degrees today” because that could subconsciously affect how she reads the thermometer. So, it’s really me who says, “Sorry, not yet.” And, I would never lie to her about that.

We’ve used NFP for over 20 years because the Church told us it is the only way to regulate births. Total abstinence is the alternative. We have been 100% successful with it, but are not happy with it. It’s a real burden. The reason that NFP couples have such a low divorce rate is not that it strengthens couples or has this great benefit - you have to have a really strong marriage to practice it. The strong marriage comes first.

You’re right—you have to have a very strong marriage to practice it. Because what if you suspect that you’re spouse is cheating on you and might have contracted an STD? Surely, you wouldn’t want to endanger your health. I watched an Oprah episode about a woman who contracted HIV from her cheating husband (she was monogamous but he wasn’t). You really have to be able to trust your spouse in order to practice NFP. Otherwise, you’d have to abstain completely.

 

[Newsy]

8
I’m sorry but staying this as fact is going a but far. It MAY but it has never been proven outright. Its hypothesized this may happen but it is not a proven fact.
God bless, rye

Does it allow ovulation? If it allows ovulation, but does not allow implantation, that is abortifative. I have no medical knowledge concerning an IUD, I am simply addressing the fact that some means of contraception do not allow implantation.

 

[Emmelia]

My husband and I have been married 3 years and have always used NFP. We love it. NFP brings so much peace and harmony to the marriage that it is worth some sacrifice. I must say though that we do not know anything else. I have never been on birth control. We discussed all of this when we were dating and we both strongly agreed on wanting to use only NFP. I love being so deeply aware of my body and its rhythms. I think of our fertility as a blessing and not as a “desease” or a problem that needs to be medicated. I think Church teachings on birth control are a great gift to all of us Catholics.

 

[JDB823]

8
I’m sorry but staying this as fact is going a but far. It MAY but it has never been proven outright. Its hypothesized this may happen but it is not a proven fact.
God bless, rye

There are three types of IUDs: Inert, Copper, and Progesterone.

The inert IUD (Lippes Loop, Dalkon Shield) works by causing an inflammatory response in the uterus. This causes the immune system to respond by attacking anything that comes in to the area: sperm, egg, or zygote. The inert IUD is obsolete and no longer sold or manufactured in the US.

The copper IUD (Paragard) boosts the effectiveness of the inert IUD by adding copper wire. Copper ions are released as the wire slowly corrodes inside the woman’s body. The copper ions make the reproductive tract extremely hostile to both sperm and egg. It allows ovulation, but not conception. In theory, copper IUDs can cause abortions, but this has never been observed in practice because they are so effective at preventing conception. Studies have shown that the conception rate is roughly equal to the pregnancy rate + natural expected early pregnancy loss. (Basically, if the sperm can make it to the egg, the system seriously isn’t working.) Emergency contraception is a different matter.

The progesterone IUD (Mirena) boosts the effectiveness of the inert IUD by adding progesterone. The progesterone acts like any other hormonal contraception. The progesterone IUD is no more than an inert IUD with a long term release progesterone implant. It works primarily to prevent ovulation, but also creates a hostile uterine environment like the inert IUD. Between these two mechanisms, conception is rare with a progesterone IUD as well.

The downside is that IUDs can have rather scary complications. If the woman becomes pregnant, the IUD must be removed. If it cannot be removed, the woman is at a high risk of miscarriage or other pregnancy complications. Even in the absence of complications, the copper ions or artificial progesterone in the body can still cause problems for women’s health. Still to say that “IUDs cause abortions” is a bit of a stretch for modern IUDs.

 

[JDB823]

NFP, when we’ve used it to prevent pregnancy for us has been a nightmare. I’m a little different than most as I do have some medical problems which I had been on the pill for - (licitly) - we had 2 unplanned pregnancies on NFP while following the rules to the hilt - very, very conservative. There are people it works wonderfully for - but my best friend just had her 4th pregnancy - her second “oops” (her word) - pregnancy - they were very conservative too. NFP works for some - and not so wonderfully for others- my big problem is that the way you find out NFP has not worked for you is that you have a positive pregnancy test.
God Bless and Good Luck
Rye

Researching the issue further, we have found is that frequently NFP instruction is abysmal, especially from Catholic sources.

The Billings Method was a major breakthrough when it was discovered, but it is largely obsolete because it relies on only one subjective symptom of fertility.

The Creighton Model is popular and very scientific, but it was designed more to treat infertility and gynecological problems than it is to prevent pregnancy. It is based on Billings and just like Billings, it relies on only one symptom of fertility. This makes it harder to detect the fertile window, although it “makes up for it” with very conservative rules for pregnancy avoidance.

The Couple-to-Couple League teaches the symptothermal method, which is a good method, but their material emphasizes chart interpretation and rules more than the quality of the observations. With bad observations, analysis of the charts becomes garbage in, garbage out. Furthermore, CCLI spends a lot of time on theology. They seem more interested in pushing the theology than teaching the science. They do not seem to take couples’ desires to avoid or struggles with excessive abstinence seriously. The quality of teaching couples’ varies widely. Toni Weschler’s “Taking Charge of Your Fertility” does a much better job of presenting the same medical information, although from a secular context.

Marquette is promising and high-tech, but it is new and the fertility monitor and test strips are not cheap.

 

[casey_zia]

Researching the issue further, we have found is that frequently NFP instruction is abysmal, especially from Catholic sources.

The Billings Method was a major breakthrough when it was discovered, but it is largely obsolete because it relies on only one subjective symptom of fertility.

The Creighton Model is popular and very scientific, but it was designed more to treat infertility and gynecological problems than it is to prevent pregnancy. It is based on Billings and just like Billings, it relies on only one symptom of fertility. This makes it harder to detect the fertile window, although it “makes up for it” with very conservative rules for pregnancy avoidance.

The Couple-to-Couple League teaches the symptothermal method, which is a good method, but their material emphasizes chart interpretation and rules more than the quality of the observations. With bad observations, analysis of the charts becomes garbage in, garbage out. Furthermore, CCLI spends a lot of time on theology. They seem more interested in pushing the theology than teaching the science. They do not seem to take couples’ desires to avoid or struggles with excessive abstinence seriously. The quality of teaching couples’ varies widely. Toni Weschler’s “Taking Charge of Your Fertility” does a much better job of presenting the same medical information, although from a secular context.

Marquette is promising and high-tech, but it is new and the fertility monitor and test strips are not cheap.

JDB, where are you in this NFP issue? You posted a very good question, and so many have responded affirming the use of NFP in their own marriages, and then you drag all the forms of NFP down with derogatory and unfounded comments. “Teaching is abysmal, especially from Catholic sources”? Like what? Billings, STM, Creighton, CCL–all have Catholic foundations, and all have excellent teacher-trainer standards. Billings is outdated and “obsolete”? Where have you been? It’s being taught around the world, as we speak, with very high levels of success and cross-cultural acceptance. The basis of the Billings is the mucus, yes, one “subjective symptom”; in its early days the founders included temperature as well, but found it wasn’t necessary and that it actually confused the interpretation of the charts; it has decades of science behind its methodology, if you would like to check out the work of Drs. Brown, Odeblad, and others who have been studying women’s cycles and mucus and hormones for a very long time. Creighton is not just a standardized form of the Billings, it has deviated from the science and rules of Billings, and moved onto its own turf. Both Billings and Creighton have doctors who understand the methods and use a woman’s charting to diagnose and treat hormonal issues. STM and CCL have been used by couples successfully, as well; “garbage in, garbage out” is a misplaced statement here about “bad observations”. What makes a woman’s observations “bad”? She might need some guidance and clarification, but every observation is crucial and part of the cycle she is experiencing. Appropriate follow up in any method is crucial for the long-term success of practicing NFP.

 

[JDB823]

JDB, where are you in this NFP issue? You posted a very good question, and so many have responded affirming the use of NFP in their own marriages, and then you drag all the forms of NFP down with derogatory and unfounded comments. “Teaching is abysmal, especially from Catholic sources”? Like what? Billings, STM, Creighton, CCL–all have Catholic foundations, and all have excellent teacher-trainer standards. Billings is outdated and “obsolete”? Where have you been? It’s being taught around the world, as we speak, with very high levels of success and cross-cultural acceptance. The basis of the Billings is the mucus, yes, one “subjective symptom”; in its early days the founders included temperature as well, but found it wasn’t necessary and that it actually confused the interpretation of the charts; it has decades of science behind its methodology, if you would like to check out the work of Drs. Brown, Odeblad, and others who have been studying women’s cycles and mucus and hormones for a very long time. Creighton is not just a standardized form of the Billings, it has deviated from the science and rules of Billings, and moved onto its own turf. Both Billings and Creighton have doctors who understand the methods and use a woman’s charting to diagnose and treat hormonal issues. STM and CCL have been used by couples successfully, as well; “garbage in, garbage out” is a misplaced statement here about “bad observations”. What makes a woman’s observations “bad”? She might need some guidance and clarification, but every observation is crucial and part of the cycle she is experiencing. Appropriate follow up in any method is crucial for the long-term success of practicing NFP.

I mean what I say. Teaching is abysmal, especially from Catholic sources.

CCL teaches an older version of STM that works, but requires more abstinence than other methods. The teaching couple we worked with was of little help in resolving difficult issues. The focus was more on the morality than on the science. Perhaps that was just the teaching couple we worked with, but that was our experience.

Our Creighton experience was even worse. Despite having multiple individual sessions with a Registered Nurse, we still didn’t know what was going on. Once again, perhaps it was the teacher we worked with, but that was our experience.

I have read more of the Billings material and perhaps I have misjudged them. It is much more scientific than I realized and Creighton is completely different. Still, the problem with Billings (and Creighton, for that matter) is that Billings has no way of confirming ovulation vs. a false peak. The couple must monitor for the entire cycle or risk pregnancy. Billings has a very low “method failure” rate, but a very high “user failure” rate.

As for “garbage in, garbage out”, there must be some reason why unplanned pregnancies are not that uncommon in the NFP world, even among people who are following all the rules. Either there is a problem with the observations or a problem with understanding the rules. Both are a symptom of poor instruction.