C
- Status
N
Newsy
Guest
Many see the “Christian view of women” as a way to limit their standing in the Church. Women are not second class citizens, they were in ancient Judaism, but Christ was the first to give respect to women. Women have special roles in the Church, they are different than a man’s role, because men and women are different. How does she view the “Christian view of women”?
We are all called to be responsible for our choices. Two children may be a perfect fit for your family.
As for your experience, 10 years of marriage and things are still good, that’s great. You are not alone, many of us still find pleasure in our spouse. Congrats on making it 10 years!
My first point is regarding the “fear of punishment” statement. Many of us follow out of honor for the Church and its teachings. I don’t remain faithful to my wife out of “fear of punishment”, but out of honor for her. Although, I think there would be punishment
.Morally, hormone contraception is wrong because it kills the conceived fetus. I think you already know this. However, if your wife refuses all other options, you can’t force her to do it your way. Check with your priest, but it may not be your sin to deal with. I would recommend you address this issue with your priest anyway.
Contraceptives are not new, there is evidence of barrier contraceptives in ancient Egypt. Barrier methods have never made me feel “close” to my wife, but NFP does.
Barrier methods and interruption are both morally wrong for the same reason, because they are not open to life. Both these methods do separate the pleasure from the person, maybe not in an obvious way, but it separates them. Separating the person from the act leads down a slippery slope, if the marital act doesn’t require the openness to life, then many sins become permissible. God intended the marital act to be one man + one woman, no barriers involved.
J
JDB823
Guest
She uses copper IUD. Morally it would be the same as the pill. Both primarily work to prevent conception (hormonal contraception through blocking ovulation, the IUD through the spermicidal/ovicidal effect of the copper ions), but in rare cases may prevent implantation. The copper IUD does not have the problems with artificial hormones, though.Many see the “Christian view of women” as a way to limit their standing in the Church. Women are not second class citizens, they were in ancient Judaism, but Christ was the first to give respect to women. Women have special roles in the Church, they are different than a man’s role, because men and women are different. How does she view the “Christian view of women”?
We are all called to be responsible for our choices. Two children may be a perfect fit for your family.
As for your experience, 10 years of marriage and things are still good, that’s great. You are not alone, many of us still find pleasure in our spouse. Congrats on making it 10 years!
My first point is regarding the “fear of punishment” statement. Many of us follow out of honor for the Church and its teachings. I don’t remain faithful to my wife out of “fear of punishment”, but out of honor for her. Although, I think there would be punishment
Morally, hormone contraception is wrong because it kills the conceived fetus. I think you already know this. However, if your wife refuses all other options, you can’t force her to do it your way. Check with your priest, but it may not be your sin to deal with. I would recommend you address this issue with your priest anyway.
Contraceptives are not new, there is evidence of barrier contraceptives in ancient Egypt. Barrier methods have never made me feel “close” to my wife, but NFP does.
Even if she were convinced that the copper IUD was morally wrong, she would probably get sterilized. She seriously considered the Essure procedure, which can sterilize without major surgery.
The problem with the Catholic Church’s view of women is that there is no answer for a woman who wants to be married and who wants a life outside the home. Celebate women can do whatever they want, but they are celebate. The Catholic view of marriage is that it must be open to life. Being open to life means lots of children, especially if the couple marries young and is fertile. Except in the rare case of stay-at-home dads, having large families means that for economic reasons alone the woman must spend her time and energy staying home and taking care of them.
The problem with NFP is that even if the couple charts correctly, the couple must abstain during the most fertile time. Even if the couple has serious reasons for doing so, our biology designs us to do the exact opposite. An “oh what the heck” baby means that a short term night of passion can lead to long term implications for the woman and her family. The woman who is not interested in being a traditional stay at home wife and mother has a lot at stake in preventing conception, while the Catholic view of marriage is designed to encourage it.
Furthermore, the burden of tracking symptoms is almost entirely on the woman, no matter how helpful her husband is. Men cannot track cervical mucus.
C
Castello
Guest
Oh, my.
An IUD works by causing early abortions.
Please, please, help her see that this is an evil device.
An IUD works by causing early abortions.
Please, please, help her see that this is an evil device.
C
Castello
Guest
Really? I am a married Catholic woman.
I had a big fancy high paying powerful job, used NFP. Our only son is now in his early 20’s.
Your wife might want to read how the Church defines women.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html
And Proverbs 31 - you read of a business woman, a mother, a wife, a civic leader - and not once does it say she avoids children and is willing to abort them to be successful.
**Who can find a woman of worth?
Far beyond jewels is her value.
Her husband trusts her judgment;
he does not lack income.
She brings him profit, not loss,
all the days of her life.
She seeks out wool and flax
and weaves with skillful hands.
Like a merchant fleet,
she secures her provisions from afar.
She rises while it is still night,
and distributes food to her household,
a portion to her maidservants.
She picks out a field and acquires it;
from her earnings she plants a vineyard.
She girds herself with strength;
she exerts her arms with vigor.
She enjoys the profit from her dealings;
her lamp is never extinguished at night.
She puts her hands to the distaff,
and her fingers ply the spindle.
She reaches out her hands to the poor,
and extends her arms to the needy.
She is not concerned for her household when it snows—
all her charges are doubly clothed.
She makes her own coverlets;
fine linen and purple are her clothing.
Her husband is prominent at the city gates
as he sits with the elders of the land.
She makes garments and sells them,
and stocks the merchants with belts.
She is clothed with strength and dignity,
and laughs at the days to come.
She opens her mouth in wisdom;
kindly instruction is on her tongue.
She watches over the affairs of her household,
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband, too, praises her:
“Many are the women of proven worth,
but you have excelled them all.”
Charm is deceptive and beauty fleeting;
the woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
Acclaim her for the work of her hands,
and let her deeds praise her at the city gates.**
I had a big fancy high paying powerful job, used NFP. Our only son is now in his early 20’s.
Your wife might want to read how the Church defines women.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html
And Proverbs 31 - you read of a business woman, a mother, a wife, a civic leader - and not once does it say she avoids children and is willing to abort them to be successful.
**Who can find a woman of worth?
Far beyond jewels is her value.
Her husband trusts her judgment;
he does not lack income.
She brings him profit, not loss,
all the days of her life.
She seeks out wool and flax
and weaves with skillful hands.
Like a merchant fleet,
she secures her provisions from afar.
She rises while it is still night,
and distributes food to her household,
a portion to her maidservants.
She picks out a field and acquires it;
from her earnings she plants a vineyard.
She girds herself with strength;
she exerts her arms with vigor.
She enjoys the profit from her dealings;
her lamp is never extinguished at night.
She puts her hands to the distaff,
and her fingers ply the spindle.
She reaches out her hands to the poor,
and extends her arms to the needy.
She is not concerned for her household when it snows—
all her charges are doubly clothed.
She makes her own coverlets;
fine linen and purple are her clothing.
Her husband is prominent at the city gates
as he sits with the elders of the land.
She makes garments and sells them,
and stocks the merchants with belts.
She is clothed with strength and dignity,
and laughs at the days to come.
She opens her mouth in wisdom;
kindly instruction is on her tongue.
She watches over the affairs of her household,
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband, too, praises her:
“Many are the women of proven worth,
but you have excelled them all.”
Charm is deceptive and beauty fleeting;
the woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
Acclaim her for the work of her hands,
and let her deeds praise her at the city gates.**
N
Newsy
Guest
I wholeheartedly agree that NFP charting is primarily the woman’s responsibility, some areas we cannot help with.
My wife and I are blessed with 2 daughters. We are at a stage in life, where another child would be difficult. We are in our mid thirties, I travel for work about 5 moths per year. My wife owns her own accounting business, pretty busy this time of year. For us, we are pretty sure our family is complete. We use NFP, we abstain about 10 days per moth. We are open to God’s call on our lives, if He chooses to give us another, we will take it as a blessing. Bottom line, just because your wife wants a career, doesn’t mean NFP isn’t an option.
In the Catholic Church, women are allowed to be stay at home mothers or CEO’s, it doesn’t matter. I have never read or heard a Church teaching like, “you must have a lot of kids and your wife can’t work outside the home”. I’m not sure where this is coming from. You and your wife must decide what you are comfortable with (family size and careers), God will steer your lives according to His plan. In the Catholic Church a woman can have a family and a life outside the home, please clarify if I have missed something.
I am not familiar with an IUD, but anything that can allow ovulation and not allow for implantation is wrong. If we as Christians believe that life starts at conception, and most of us do, then anything that prevents implantation is evil, the same way abortion is evil.
You brought up an interesting point about the fertile time of the month and our biology. It gets harder to abstain during the fertile time, just how it is, but we cannot always let our bodies have what they want. Food is a biological necessity, as is sleep, but if you let your body decide how much sleep to get and eat every time you got the urge, you would probably get nothing else done. At least I wouldn’t
. We must exert self control, practice moderation to keep our bodies healthy. Too much food and sleep, without exercise would lead to obesity and eventually death. I am not saying that eating and sleeping are bad, just that we should be in control of them. Same goes for our natural urges for our spouses, if somebody had no control of their sexual urges, this would lead to a very unhealthy lifestyle. Self control is practiced through abstinence, whether abstaining from unneeded snacks or abstaining from relations a few days per month, it is a healthy practice.
K
Kelfa28
Guest
Actually, it is possible to get pregnant on the IUD and therefore cause abortion. Just like the Pill a women could still ovulate and release an egg but never make it to implantation. This is considered an abortion. You can still become pregnant using the IUD and the problem is when you do find out you are pregnant, you panic and consider something drastic. It effects your marriage negatively because either one or both spouses are under the false assurance that this device is 100% effective.
NFP, when done correctly, is 99% effective. Sounds exactly like all ABC that is available. Why is a stay-at-home dad rare? This must be a pride thing and not a mutual decision. Why does a woman have to stay home if she is just as educated and just as capable of taking a job. Statistics show that couples that practice NFP have a large family because they want one and not because they are forced to have one. I, personally, don’t feel oppressed. My Fiance and I are expecting our first. We use NFP and between his help and our families help, I’m getting my nursing degree. We’ve decided to switch off responsibility with the children once I get a job as an RN.
First of all, your argument makes no sense because it says that any couple that must spend time away from each other regardless of their views and beliefs, will be unable to abstain and will cheat on their spouse. My Fiance and I are both in the military and have had to make sacrifices because we’ve been away from each other for long periods of time. I’ve been away from him for a total of 18 months. Obviously that meant we had to abstain for 18 months. Is your argument that, biologically, couples that are away from each other will cheat because of the idea of “a short term night of passion?” Why is it easier to abstain when you are apart then when you are together? If a military couple can handle 18 months worth of abstainance then a married couple can handle 10 days. Couples must abstain after childbirth for 6 weeks.
Also, does the pill require any help from the men? What about the IUD? No ABC is a group effort. Whose fault is it when ABC fails? The women. Except the bigger problem is neither was open to life so there is more blame to go around.
J
JDB823
Guest
No, it does not. Although in theory it could, this has never been observed in studies.
fhi360.org/en/RH/Pubs/booksReports/methodaction.htm
The evidence shows that IUDs do not interfere with implantation, but work by killing the sperm before they can reach the egg. It allows ovulation, but prevents fertilization. Conception is extremely rare and when it does happen studies show that the rate of conception is roughly equal to the pregnancy rate + natural early pregnancy loss.
“Some people incorrectly believe that the principal mechanism of action of IUDs is prevention of implantation of fertilized eggs. The existing evidence does not support the theory that the mechanism of action of IUDs includes the destruction of embryos in the uterus. The foreign body reaction induced by copper and inert IUDs is hostile to sperm and possibly eggs in the upper genital tract. Few sperm reach the site of fertilization in the fallopian tubes, and those that do are unlikely to be capable of fertilizing an egg. Eggs may be similarly impaired. Should fertilization occur, the chances for establishing a pregnancy likely decrease as the fertilized egg approaches the uterine cavity. Thus, the IUD appears to work at a much earlier stage of human reproduction than was previously thought; prevention of fertilization seems to be the dominant mode of action.”
Please take the time and effort to understand the science. You do yourself no favors in arguing for moral positions by using scientific “facts” that are invalid.
C
Castello
Guest
physiciansforlife.org/content/view/1885/2/
IUD Works for Emergency Abortion “Birth Control”: Study
An abortifacient copper intrauterine device was 100 percent effective at emergency contraception [sic] in a study of almost 2000 Chinese women who had the device implanted up to five days after unprotected sex. The communist government of China strictly enforces a “one child” forced abortion policy.
The device - called Copper T380A, or Copper T - continued to be effective at preventing continuation of an existing pregnancies a year after it was inserted. Copper T, marketed as ParaGard in the United States, is a T-shaped piece of flexible plastic wrapped in a layer of copper that is inserted into the uterus.
ParaGard was removed for a number of years from the US market due to lawsuits and health dangers it posed to women. It works by stopping sperm from reaching the egg and by preventing an embryo (human baby) from implanting in the wall of the uterus, thus rendering it a de facto abortifacient device (causes early abortion).
Doctors in Rhode Island are currently under investigation for implanting hundreds of women with cheaper, non-approved versions of Copper T and another type of intrauterine device, Mirena.
link.reuters.com/cug73n , BJOG: An International Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, online July 7, 2010; [Home | Reuters]](Home | Reuters])
J
JDB823
Guest
Key words being “when done correctly”. Doing NFP correctly is easier said than done.
There are no theological reasons why women cannot have careers outside the home or have to have large families.
That being said, openness to life generally means large families and large families mean that one parent or the other (usually, though not necessarily, the woman) will have to take care of the children. The problem is practical, not theological.
The reason why stay-at-home dads are rare is because educated, career-oriented women frequently marry educated, career-oriented men. If the couple has a large family, one or the other will have to give up their career.
Did your Fiance live with other women and sleep in the same bed with them for 18 months?
Would you have trusted him to do so for 10 days each month while said woman was fertile (i.e. most interested and most appealing)?
When separated, a spouse can take steps to avoid temptation, such as not spending time alone with other women, and certainly not sleeping in bed with them. But in marriage, avoiding each other to avoid “temptation” is contrary to the very spirit of marriage. And often not very effective.
When ABC fails, the responsibility can fall outside the couple. It could be the manufacturer of the device. It could be the doctor. When sterilization fails, the responsibility generally falls on the doctor who performed it and the law supports this.
When NFP fails, it could be because the woman has incorrectly observed her symptoms, that the couple has incorrectly interpreted the chart, or that the couple simply couldn’t control themselves. The responsibility falls exclusively within the couple and primarily on the woman.
I would like to thank everyone who answered this thread for your time and I appreciate your feedback.
K
Kelfa28
Guest
JDB891694023:
JDB891694023:
You are also haven’t taken into account mothers that actually want to stay at home with their children and are more than happy to stay at home. I gave up my career as a paramedic because I wanted to. I’m happy that I now have the option to stay at home to take care my baby girl and I have the support of my family, babysitting and such, to finish up nursing school. I’m happy to then go to work while my husband stays home and takes a break from his job and enjoys the kiddos. Your bachelor’s degree doesn’t go away when you stop your career. It’s not too hard to switch jobs.
JDB891694023:
I still don’t care what anyone says. Abstaining for 18 months is so much harder then 10 days or even 20 days. It doesn’t matter if you are living with them or not. If someone complained to me that they had to abstain with their SO for 10 days in order to prevent having a child but still got to cuddle in bed with their SO every night, while I was lonely and away from my SO going on month number 8 and still had 10 more to go…I’d laugh in their face and then turn around and start to cry.
JDB891694023:
What other birth control has resources like NFP? You can take classes, read books, e-mail experts and have physical evidence of your progress with charts to show. When the pill or the IUD doesn’t work and there is a pregnancy scare or some horrible side effect, the couple and the doctor could be in the dark as to why. No other birth control gives you complete and total control over your body.
It’s actually not. I’ve read books and gone to classes and practiced NFP before I returned to the church. I did it because I hated the side effects of putting hormones inside my body and didn’t realize that ABC was also a sin. It’s cheaper and healthier to do NFP. For me it works quite well and we were able to plan our child after going a year with using NFP effectively. In my opinion, it was just as difficult to remember taking a pill everyday. When I didn’t take the pill I was under an immense amount of fear of what to do if I did become pregnant. How would I tell my SO? We didn’t want children but now I’m pregnant…what do I do?
JDB891694023:
Talk to the couples that used NFP and have only one or two children. Statistics say that families that use NFP have big families because that is what they choose to have. It also says that married couples have only a 3% divorce rate. Clearly they are happier together.
You are also haven’t taken into account mothers that actually want to stay at home with their children and are more than happy to stay at home. I gave up my career as a paramedic because I wanted to. I’m happy that I now have the option to stay at home to take care my baby girl and I have the support of my family, babysitting and such, to finish up nursing school. I’m happy to then go to work while my husband stays home and takes a break from his job and enjoys the kiddos. Your bachelor’s degree doesn’t go away when you stop your career. It’s not too hard to switch jobs.
JDB891694023:
Looks like I’ve found a way that the husband can help with this kind of BC. The husband has to abstain from sex and not nag or badger the wife. My Fiance was fine with it and had no problem abstaining for a little over a week during my fertile times. Of course he was around women all the time while deployed but no, he didn’t live with them or sleep with them. But, we’ve had practice abstaining anyway. We’ve talked about the pros and cons and he understands that this is necessary in order to space out our children. He respects me and loves me enough to wait.
I still don’t care what anyone says. Abstaining for 18 months is so much harder then 10 days or even 20 days. It doesn’t matter if you are living with them or not. If someone complained to me that they had to abstain with their SO for 10 days in order to prevent having a child but still got to cuddle in bed with their SO every night, while I was lonely and away from my SO going on month number 8 and still had 10 more to go…I’d laugh in their face and then turn around and start to cry.
JDB891694023:
I’d love to see the statistics of how many times it was the manufactures or doctors fault when it comes to the pill or condoms. It’s almost always user error.
What other birth control has resources like NFP? You can take classes, read books, e-mail experts and have physical evidence of your progress with charts to show. When the pill or the IUD doesn’t work and there is a pregnancy scare or some horrible side effect, the couple and the doctor could be in the dark as to why. No other birth control gives you complete and total control over your body.
J
JDB823
Guest
I did not want to get into any debates with anyone and it appears that this thread is heading in that direction. A debate will not be productive for anyone and I will not continue it.
At any rate, I think my initial question has been answered. Thank you all for your help.
At any rate, I think my initial question has been answered. Thank you all for your help.
H
hannajomar
Guest
I practice NFP because I think it is best, not because of fear.
NFP has helped me understand and connect with my own body in a way that is just impossible with ABC. Since I’ve first read about this, I have gained a love for being female that I never experienced during my college days of angry feminism and ABC.
If I ever get to the point where it feels like another child would be too big of a burden on my life/lifestyle, I hope I will think about changing my life before changing my body, thus forcing it to cease what it is suppose to do.
NFP has helped me understand and connect with my own body in a way that is just impossible with ABC. Since I’ve first read about this, I have gained a love for being female that I never experienced during my college days of angry feminism and ABC.
If I ever get to the point where it feels like another child would be too big of a burden on my life/lifestyle, I hope I will think about changing my life before changing my body, thus forcing it to cease what it is suppose to do.
A
anp1215
Guest
I trust in the Church and know in my heart that what it teaches is true, this is why I do not use contraception. I used contraception in my marriage before I converted to Catholicism, and I feel much better spiritually now that I have stopped using it. I fully trust in the Lord. I actually just took my last NFP class yesterday, so I’m afraid I can’t give you any advice on difficulty practicing.
J
JDB823
Guest
She understands her cycle and how female biology works.
But that doesn’t mean that she likes it. She actually wanted to get sterilized after our second, but the doctor recommended against something permanent for a woman her age with only two children. She sees her reproductive system like wisdom teeth: Something she doesn’t need and will only cause her problems in the future.
As for the answer, I was asking the wrong question. Fertility Awareness/NFP is a benefit, if and only if one accepts the Catholic understanding of the body.
The Catholic understanding of the body is that it is an integral part of the human person and to violate the dignity of the human body, including the dignity of the sexual act, violates the dignity of the human person. (It really is that simple. Unfortunately, most of the Church’s defenders would rather spend their time and energy preaching to the choir about the evils of various methods of contraception or “selling” NFP.) Fertility Awareness based methods are the only form of birth control that respects this dignity, and, as such would be preferred over contraception. The Church’s teaching on the sinfulness of contraception is not a major motivation for such a choice, as contraception is seen as an overwhelming negative and therefore undesirable.
The secular understanding of the human body is that it is the property of the individual to use as he or she deems fit and the sexual act is merely another use of the human body for the enjoyment of its owner. If one accepts the secular understanding of the human body, relying only on Fertility Awareness for birth control significantly restricts the couple from enjoying their own bodies. Contraception is positive because it helps both partners use their bodies for their mutual pleasure with a reduction in risk of undesired consequences. Fertility Awareness may be useful to reduce the need for contraception during the infertile times, but contraception remains a positive good.
K
Kelfa28
Guest
I, and most Christians in general would probably agree, think that the human body is a gift from God and should be treated with far more dignity and respect. Flooding your body with hormones isn’t a very respectful way to treat your body in order to prevent life.
It doesn’t always work and when it doesn’t work someone gets blamed and put in an impossible situation. It introduces that idea of abortion as a “solution to the problem” or an “easy fix.” If you treat your body so carelessly it’s hard to imagine treating a pregnancy any differently.
C
Castello
Guest
Sad, pleasure becomes an idol to be worshiped - sacrificing our own bodies on the altar of this god.
J
JDB823
Guest
Sorry, but statements like that make you sound like a Puritan.
Pleasure is good, but harming ourselves for the purpose of short-term pleasure is foolish.
C
Castello
Guest
Exactly. Taking pills and having surgery that harm our bodies for short term pleasure IS foolish.
E
Em_in_FL
Guest
That’s a small part of it, yes… but no where CLOSE to the full answer.
You are ENTIRELY missing the part about the SACRAMENT of marriage. In this Sacrament, the husband and wife become one in every way.
Using contraception is actually a violation of the Sixth Commandment - You shall not commit adultery.
By taking the God-given-gift of sexuality (where union and procreation are divinely intertwined) and tearing apart those aspect by removing the procreative aspect, you are violating one of the most basic teachings in all of Judeo-Christianity.
From the Catechism:
And since sexuality is limited to the the married state, this is also divinely intertwined into the Sacrament of Marriage itself.
FAR BEYOND the simple “dignity of the human person”…
- Status