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Jennifer_J
Guest
so abstaining to prevent pregnancy is contraception? hmmm, I don’t think so…and neither does the Church
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sanctamaria17
Guest
Abusing sex would be distorting the sex act, whether through medical, surgical, or other means. Abstaining when you’re most likely to get pregnant is not abusing sex. Rather, it’s common sense if you have a reason to avoid, and yes, there are reasons…reasons to be decided by a husband and wife TOGETHER and ULTIMATELY by GOD.
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ac_claire
Guest
I agree with your post.It is interesting what the debt beast does to us. We have a mortgage and about 5 grand in CC debt but no car payments and our third on the way. Finances always enter into our equasion but I always go back to the idea that debt is actually a luxury. Albeit an evil one. But would “typical American debt” constitute different morality of NFP “financial” reasons than say someone in south america that is poor but “happy” Does the Church say that there is a different morality for those fortunate enough to have a credit score to get them in debt? Just musing.
PS if debt is a reason to abstain I better not see a pregnant statue of liberty anytime soon.
If debt is actually a reason to abstain, then (with the exception of one amazing couple I know), *nobody I know *should be having babies, ever! lol I understand not wanting to be in debt and trying to reduce it, absolutely. But it seems to me that over the past couple decades a certain amount of debt is just a regular part of life for most Americans. Whether we’re talking HUGE gambling debts or modest mortgage loans, or credit cards, medical bills, student loans…
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Em_in_FL
Guest
It’s so good knowing I’m not “alone”… thanks!Em - I always feel a kindred spirit with you when I read your posts. I hope that’s ok.
We have used NFP to space our children. I have not had the best of luck breastfeeding, so fertility returns about 6 weeks postpartum (one exception…I was successful bf’ing my 3rd DD…and fertility did not return until 8 months post-partum.)
Also, I work full-time (like Em) … So, some space feels necessary. WE have at least 2 years between each child.
We also have a small 3-BR house with 1.5 bathrooms and less than 1000 sq. feet living space. It feels crowded…I have my younger two sharing and my older two sharing for now…
And I use NFP mostly because I love how I have learned so much about my body and the things wrong with it! I have PCOS, I also suffer from luteal phase defect and low progesterone issues. I would know none of this if I weren’t paying attention to my body each cycle!
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Cat
Guest
A little debt is OK, but bigger debt is such a burden. It saps energy, and one thing that you need is energy when rearing children. The world is a dark, scary place when you are in debt and one paycheck away from becoming homeless.
Some families can move back in with their parents, or with other family members. I think we’ll see more of this as the economy worsens. But for most European Americans, this is simply not the lifestyle that they were raised with, and it feels uncomfortable. I would NOT want to move back in my parents once I was married.
Often the husband, who is responsible for supporting his family, becomes totally overwhelmed and some men with tendencies toward addictions use alcohol, smokes, food, or even drugs to cope. Some men fall victim to the gambling den, and some seek relief from the unbearable pressure in various illicit sex acts (including porn).
With some men and women, the debt triggers whatever physiology inside that causes clinical depression. Clinical depression is a major cause of suicide.
If there is a good support system around, mainly lots of loving family members to help out and perhaps a good strong church with charitable tendencies, a couple can probably handle debt and many children. But all too often, a family lives away from their family and cannot move back because of their jobs (certain jobs are only available in certain parts of the U.S.–e.g., my husband cannot find high tech computer jobs in our city, which is mainly composed of manufacturing and service industries, not scientific companies). Without a support system, a couple really has no safety net and they may crash and burn.
Speaking of good strong churches–a lot of couples don’t have many friends because they are isolated in their poverty. It’s hard to go to church when your car is a clunker and doesn’t start half the time, and when you can’t even afford the gas money to drive down the road (and when you have too many children to fit in the required car seats in a small, affordable car).
Basically, what I’m trying to say is that debt is an excellent reason to avoid having another child. Raising children is a full time job, and it takes all the energy, heart, and soul that you have.
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Lerin
Guest
Us too!My wife and I have used NFP as a subject of conversation at the dinner table and in bed. As for avoiding pregnancies…
Three kids, four years of marriage. And counting.
Yeah, it’s all talk in our house.
Three kids in the 4 years we’ve been married.
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samovila
Guest
I’m sure I must have heard or read this before, but this is striking me now as a very wise statement. My husband and I are married for 3 years and have two little ones. For the first time since we were married we are serious enough about TTA to follow the rules and longer periods of abstinence.
And to answer the OP’s question, 1. Health reasons – I had another baby less than 6 months ago and don’t feel my body is ready for anther pregnancy, 2. Financial – we are moving from a two bedroom to a four bedroom house this month (to make more room for future babies!) and we must become comfortable paying higher mortgage payments before adding to the family. and 3. The stress of having a two year old and an infant is overwhelming some days. It was very easy for my husband and I to comclude that now is not the time to try for another baby.
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JLCecilia
Guest
Us Three!!! We will celebrate 4 years in August, baby #3 coming in December.Us too!
We’ve been unsuccessful w/ TTA b/c we lived together and contracepted before marrying, so NFP/chastity/communication is something that we are still struggling with. Our biggest problem overall is communication and we will be attending Retrovaille in October.
Financial: Didn’t get zealous about a budget or getting out of debt till after baby #2 was born. Got on the Dave Ramsey kick and we are down to our mortgage and 1 car payment, no credit cards. Still not where we’d like to be, but we’ll get there. We need to get a minivan, but we’re upside down in our car loan, don’t have the money to get out of it and can’t afford a bigger car payment - so we’ll squeeze 3 carseats in the car for now. It’s sickening to think about how much we’ll be paying for a sitter for 3 (we could have a REALLY nice house - sitter fees already exceed our mtg pymt!). Wish we would have spaced better so at least 1 would be in school, but we’ll survive. Don’t care about having a bigger house necessarily, just need to fix the one we’ve got. Our furnace is past it’s expiration date, so that will be a major expense when the day comes; and a rotting, dilapidated fence outside.
Social: Both of us feel like we have no friends to get away and hang out with. I miss my mom and hope my parents move back soon - don’t feel like we have the same support from all of DH’s family that we have just from my folks. I think we could have a lot more help with child care, time away to ourselves and help with home repair if my folks were around. Also, really want to make friends with couples from the church who we can have fun with, but also share in fellowship with, working in ministry and who will support and encourage us in our vocation as spouses and parents.
Mental/Emotional/Spiritual: DH and I have come to realize that we have very different ideals and expectations for our marriage and family and just have a lot of work to do on our communication and making a real, conscious, everyday effort towards this. Hoping DH will experience a real conversion in his faith and come along side me in forming/educating our children in every way, especially in the faith. We both suffer depression and I really feel a lack of direction and conviction in DH’s life as far as education/career goes - hoping he’ll figure out what he really wants to do. I really desire to be a SAHM, but DH has not agreed to it yet. Don’t have a prayer life together, hoping DH will start working with me on this and just having everyday communication. Also would like to resume my hour of Adoration every week and for both of us to be more involved in church ministries.
Lots of work to do - but we’ll work till the day we die!!! If it weren’t for our children and NFP, we wouldn’t have even made the strides that we have in terms of maturing and being more responsible and really developing our ideals for our marriage and family. God knows what He’s doing - we wouldn’t be who we are today without His gift of children in our marriage. They may not have been in our plans, but it isn’t about our plan anyway, it’s about His!
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Matt33
Guest
I think you analysis of the problems of debt is right on. But I don’t think it has to come down to the problems of debt so often. Most debt is a product of our choices. A risk we are willing to calculate and take… a risk creditors are willing to take on us. (with the exeption of some medical bills)
Especially those that are self employed with irregular income konw exactly about thier choices and outcomes.
We are all one paycheck away from life altering events. Why even the great Obama loses his house if he loses his paycheck. If my wife lost her job… we may not lose the house for a while but eventually I would flip burgers to live in an apartment and buy bunkbeds from the second hand store.
Debt can also be an important reason TO have kids, especially when talking about our national debt. I mean who are the workers that are going to pay for all this stimulus handout mentality we are going through right now. We need to have LOTS of kids!
We are fortunate enough to have loving supporting families and comunities. I understand not everyone is so fortunate but really many people who use debt as an excuse are really saying, we “we want a cool car instead of a kid.” It is a common mentality in our society.
All that being said debt can be both a great reason to use NFP or a selfish one.
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dancergal
Guest
I just had to add to this. I think it’s a very wise idea to teach girls how to track their cycles even if it’s not for birth control. I remember being in middle school sometime, and my mom just told me one day, “hey, did you know that you can accurately predict when your period will start? That way you won’t be caught off guard when it starts.” It was a simple and quick conversation, and I’ve used it ever since.I apologize for horning in, but, in response to the above: seriously!!!
I think we ought to teach girls how to track their cycles using NFP methods of observation (and leaving out the rules for avoiding/achieving pregnancy 'til they get to marriage prep) simply so young women are not forced to go like sheep among the wolves, unarmed, into GYN appointments when they have medical issues!
Ok, now returning you to the topic of this thread…
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Alix1912
Guest
I have a bit of a different perspective on NFP as I am protestant, but my husband is Catholic. I have no problem with Birth Control as long as it doesn’t harm an already fertilized egg.
That being said, I think a lot of women fail to understand that our bodies are built and work the way they do for a reason, using chemicals and hormones to change that isn’t always a great idea. For example, I turn into the super witch on the pill, I get depressed, and cranky. When an Anglican friend gave me a book on NFP, I was amazed at how easy it was (lucky for me I have really regular cycles). My husband was amazed at how much more pleasant a person I was not on the pill. We used it for a while to get to our second wedding anniversary, then used it to time getting pregnant with our daughter who will arrive in October.
I have passed my book onto several friends and my younger sister, because the information is stuff you never learned and is really helpful. I do think this stuff should be better taught in general.
That being said. My husband and I choose to avoid conception to give us time to both finish grad school, pay off debt, and have a chance to develop as a couple before introducing kids into the mix. We will wait a while after this baby to try for another oneor two because we would like to space them out a little for my sanity, and to give us time to save up and move to a bigger house.
I think spacing kids for financial, sanity, health, etc. are all good reasons. I also think waiting until both husband and wife are ready for the commitment of having children is a valid reason too. Just my 2 cents.
That being said, I think a lot of women fail to understand that our bodies are built and work the way they do for a reason, using chemicals and hormones to change that isn’t always a great idea. For example, I turn into the super witch on the pill, I get depressed, and cranky. When an Anglican friend gave me a book on NFP, I was amazed at how easy it was (lucky for me I have really regular cycles). My husband was amazed at how much more pleasant a person I was not on the pill. We used it for a while to get to our second wedding anniversary, then used it to time getting pregnant with our daughter who will arrive in October.
I have passed my book onto several friends and my younger sister, because the information is stuff you never learned and is really helpful. I do think this stuff should be better taught in general.
That being said. My husband and I choose to avoid conception to give us time to both finish grad school, pay off debt, and have a chance to develop as a couple before introducing kids into the mix. We will wait a while after this baby to try for another oneor two because we would like to space them out a little for my sanity, and to give us time to save up and move to a bigger house.
I think spacing kids for financial, sanity, health, etc. are all good reasons. I also think waiting until both husband and wife are ready for the commitment of having children is a valid reason too. Just my 2 cents.
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New_at_this
Guest
Lets see ,
My parents divorced and my mum was a stay at home mum so iam doing the bulk of her bills
We have two under two kids for 2 years of marriage
We are both in grad school
My parents divorced and my mum was a stay at home mum so iam doing the bulk of her bills
We have two under two kids for 2 years of marriage
We are both in grad school
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Em_in_FL
Guest
I know you’re not currently on the pill… but just wanted to make sure you know that taking The Pill may violate your problem with harming an already-fertilized egg. The pill works in two ways (you can read the package inserts) - one way is to prevent ovulation, but that’s not always reliable (hence why some people get pregnant on the pill) - so the secondary mechanism is to “alter the endometrium” of the uterus, making it challenging for an already-fertilized egg to implant on the uterine wall - thus causing an early abortion.
Just wanted to make sure you had all the information on that…
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iluvmybabies
Guest
If I would have known about NFP, super uninformed Catholic here, I would have never agreed to keeping my exhusband then husband happy with bcps and other forms of contraception…The reasons for using such were:
I am taking it one day at a time, and GOD willing we will be blessed with children in the nearby future…
- He wasn’t ready for children
- Barely starting career
- Not owning a home
- After starting career not enough money
- Wanted to still have a longer “honey moon”
- Too young
- Not enough room
- Not emotionally ready
- How will we feed another person
- Laid off couldn’t find a job for a while
- I wouldn’t take the “morning after pill”
- Wouldn’t let him wear a condom
- Didn’t take bcps
- Would lose condoms
- Not let him “pull out” etc
- I barely make enough for the 3 of us, get a job!
- you don’t want to work then no more kids
- What you are denying me sex because you don’t want to use condoms?
- I don’t want to deal with another mouth to feed
- We don’t have any time for us
- I want to sleep more
- I don’t want to work 2 jobs!
- I don’t want to work 3 jobs get another job
- Can’t afford a babysitter!
- Do you even love me any more all you think about is what you want!
I am taking it one day at a time, and GOD willing we will be blessed with children in the nearby future…
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Alix1912
Guest
I know that some versions of the pill do alter the endometrium instead of shut down the ovaries. I spoke with my OB about that before going on them. It was a mute point because I had to be on ones strong enough to shut off my ovaries completely or it would have messed with my heart meds. (The variable hormones in may types that do not shut off the ovaries use would have really screwed up my heart meds). They were also strong enough to alter my moods, which is why I will never go on them again. Besides at 30, if we want to have more that one kid we don’t really have time go on and off the pill. NFP is easier and since my cycles are pretty regular it’s really easy. I can see why people who have irregular cycles might stuggle with it though.
I think NFP is the best option, it fosters communication, and other types of intimacy in a realtionship besides focusing soley on sex. (Believe me being 6 months pregnant, the most sexy thing my husband can do is snuggle me and rub my sore back) Not to mention being able to predict almost the exact day your period is going to start is so nice. I hated the guessing and always having to be prepared.
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Joya
Guest
Jennifer,
No, abstaining to prevent pregnancy is not contraception. But, choosing to have sex only during infertile times when you know it is biologically impossible to conceive because you have monitored your cycle IS contraception. Makes no difference that you’re not using any devices or chemicals. The withdrawal method doesn’t use anything artificial either and it is still contraceptive as well.
NFP is great. I have used it myself with both frustration and contentment. But let’s call a spade a spade. I just don’t think the Church can have it both ways by approving of a birth control method that does not result in conception, but is not called contraception.
I do not mean to offend here. I am merely pointing out what I think is a flaw in the Church’s reasoning.
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crohnie4life
Guest
DH & I use NFP to avoid due to many serious health issues I have including Crohn’s and a blood clotting disorder that caused a 12" clot in my brain thus causing a stroke which almost did me in.
My hematologist strongly advised me to avoid conceiving due to the medications I am on. If I were to get pregnant, it would definitely harm or kill me and our child. Also, the meds I take for Crohn’s disease would cause trouble for the unborn child as well as myself.
We’ve been using it successfully for 12 yrs. It amazes me that those who use the pill always say that NFP is not reliable at all but yet, when these same BCP users wind up pregnant while on the pill, they always wonder what went wrong and it’s usually b/c they forgot to take the contraceptive, took an antibiotic w/it, or just don’t realize that there is break through bleeding (ovulation) that can cause one to get pregnant.
I guess these contraceptive couples should really educate themselves and know that NFP is the BEST thing that’s out there as it won’t interfere with medications, it’s safe, and can be use to avoid/achieve a pregnancy when used correctly and for the right reasons.
My hematologist strongly advised me to avoid conceiving due to the medications I am on. If I were to get pregnant, it would definitely harm or kill me and our child. Also, the meds I take for Crohn’s disease would cause trouble for the unborn child as well as myself.
We’ve been using it successfully for 12 yrs. It amazes me that those who use the pill always say that NFP is not reliable at all but yet, when these same BCP users wind up pregnant while on the pill, they always wonder what went wrong and it’s usually b/c they forgot to take the contraceptive, took an antibiotic w/it, or just don’t realize that there is break through bleeding (ovulation) that can cause one to get pregnant.
I guess these contraceptive couples should really educate themselves and know that NFP is the BEST thing that’s out there as it won’t interfere with medications, it’s safe, and can be use to avoid/achieve a pregnancy when used correctly and for the right reasons.
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shannyk
Guest
Clearly you are uninformed as to the Church’s reasoning. Your above statement clearly shows that. Do you honestly think the Church teaches couples may use NFP as some kind of placation? NFP has long preceded the Church’s approval of it or even our human knowledge of it. It’s existed since the beginning of time, it is how a woman’s body was God made to work. NFP’ as we now refer t it, is a way of observing what God designed and using that knowledge of our bodies in the way God ordered in marriage.
Please, don’t tell people that the Church is espousing something that is sinful, it causes scandal.
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quasius
Guest
Because the Church says it isn’t. QED.
I mean, there are more thorough explanations out there for people seeking; but I’ve always found the “I’m better at being Catholic that the Church tells how to be Catholic” line of thinking strange.
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Joya
Guest
Hmmm…I don’t think you thoroughly read my post as none of your points address my argument that nfp is a contraceptive method.
I know that this is how God made a woman’s body to work. But does that mean it should be the only method that is available to mankind? God also put hair on our bodies to protect us from the elements. Are we violating His design when we remove it with scissors, razors, etc?
I think there is nothing wrong with questioning the Church’s position on a certain issue. What I was trying to say is that it is a problem with semantics. I really don’t think it’s right to use the infertile period of a cycle to prevent conception and then say you are not contracepting. Having said this, this doesn’t mean I dislike nfp.
Lastly, I never said the Church was espousing something that is sinful. I hope you see the point I was trying to make.
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